How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

 

[aupmanyav]

If Putin loses he's going to lose a lot more republics but Russia as such will remain.

The war is not yet over.

And why would you want the S-500? Long range SAMs simply mean your opponent must fly low.

You buy even if you have the slightest need and if you have money.

I wouldn't call any of those maneuvers and even if they were they're not a reason to attack. NATO is a deterrence, not a threat.

A supposed deterrent for some, threat for others.
T.G.G. Moogly said: 'Apparently deterrence can be very threatening.'

 

[bilby]

If Russia were at war with NATO, Moscow would be a pool of slowly cooling radioactive glass.

What about New York and London?

That depends on whether any of the components of the Russian nuclear arsenal still work. Which is highly unlikely.

Most, perhaps all, of the Russian nuclear arsenal will have been degraded by corrupt officers. Certainly we have seen in Ukraine how badly degraded Russian military capability has become in conventional warfare.

The nuclear arsenal is likely even more degraded; If you are a corrupt official who diverts the maintenance budget for a tank brigade or artillery battalion to your vodka and strippers fund, you can only skim off so much, before your larceny is exposed during live firing exercises.

But if you're in charge of the nukes, you can be pretty confident that you won't have to demonstrate that they are still in working order. They don't need to go "BANG!", so as long as you can pay off the occasional inspector who seems worryingly competent (and my guess is that in Russia such people are both very occasional, and easily bought or fooled), you can pretty much live it up on Uncle Vlad's Ruble.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Russia's shadow fleet of oil hauling rust buckets pose an environmental risk to the Danish coast. Denmark and a coalition of interested countries are looking at a plan similar to what Turkey has implemented for the Bosphorus Strait, requiring ships to prove insurance coverage. Appearently this worked gangbusters for Turkey.

Also

South Korea is looking at providing arms to Ukraine. This is a big deal. South Korea is no slouch when it comes to defense manufacturing and speedy delivery. They make a variety of weapons and are big into artillery. This is probably going to happen since Hitler Without a Mustache went to DPRK to grind up against fat little Kimmy. I suspect the South was none too happy about Russia's public statement about providing the North further weapons technology.

One other item

The US has prioitized Ukraine for delivery of the air to air missiles typically fitted to F-16s. Aside from Taiwan, all other foreign national sales will be held in abbeyance for the next sixteen months.

 

[Harry Bosch]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Russia's shadow fleet of oil hauling rust buckets pose an environmental risk to the Danish coast. Denmark and a coalition of interested countries are looking at a plan similar to what Turkey has implemented for the Bosphorus Strait, requiring ships to prove insurance coverage. Appearently this worked gangbusters for Turkey.

Also

South Korea is looking at providing arms to Ukraine. This is a big deal. South Korea is no slouch when it comes to defense manufacturing and speedy delivery. They make a variety of weapons and are big into artillery. This is probably going to happen since Hitler Without a Mustache went to DPRK to grind up against fat little Kimmy. I suspect the South was none too happy about Russia's public statement about providing the North further weapons technology.

One other item

The US has prioitized Ukraine for delivery of the air to air missiles typically fitted to F-16s. Aside from Taiwan, all other foreign national sales will be held in abbeyance for the next sixteen months.

Yes, this would be huge news. Due to the republicans, it's getting tougher for the US to send arms to Ukraine. The south Korean arms are also much better in quality than the north korean arms going to Russia.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Apparently, about half the North Korean artillery shells sent to Russia are duds. Which might be good news for South Korea, facing heavily dug in North Korean artillery positions along the DMZ.

 

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true. Europe isn't suddenly grow a pair of balls. We're pathetic right now.

 

[Harry Bosch]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true.

Going by your definition: Russia is a proxy war for Iran and North Korea. If Iran and North Korea didn't continue sending arms to Russia, the Russian invasion would falter. Russia also relies on material and goods from China and India to keep going. So, another proxy war.

 

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true.

Going by your definition: Russia is a proxy war for Iran and North Korea. If Iran and North Korea didn't continue sending arms to Russia, the Russian invasion would falter. Russia also relies on material and goods from China and India to keep going. So, another proxy war.

You suck at this. A proxy war has to involve a super power. There are exactly three right now. USA, Russia and China. the rest can't fight proxy wars. India is on the fast track toward becoming a super power. But they've quite a bit to go still. EU might be considered a super power if they would start acting as one unit. Or acting at all really.

Please, keep going with your silly arguments. I'm assuming you started with your strongest material, and they'll continuously get easier and easier to shoot down.

 

[Harry Bosch]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true.

Going by your definition: Russia is a proxy war for Iran and North Korea. If Iran and North Korea didn't continue sending arms to Russia, the Russian invasion would falter. Russia also relies on material and goods from China and India to keep going. So, another proxy war.

You suck at this. A proxy war has to involve a super power. There are exactly three right now. USA, Russia and China. the rest can't fight proxy wars. India is on the fast track toward becoming a super power. But they've quite a bit to go still. EU might be considered a super power if they would start acting as one unit. Or acting at all really.

Please, keep going with your silly arguments. I'm assuming you started with your strongest material, and they'll continuously get easier and easier to shoot down.

I'm curious. Why is this definition game so important to you?

 

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true.

Going by your definition: Russia is a proxy war for Iran and North Korea. If Iran and North Korea didn't continue sending arms to Russia, the Russian invasion would falter. Russia also relies on material and goods from China and India to keep going. So, another proxy war.

You suck at this. A proxy war has to involve a super power. There are exactly three right now. USA, Russia and China. the rest can't fight proxy wars. India is on the fast track toward becoming a super power. But they've quite a bit to go still. EU might be considered a super power if they would start acting as one unit. Or acting at all really.

Please, keep going with your silly arguments. I'm assuming you started with your strongest material, and they'll continuously get easier and easier to shoot down.

I'm curious. Why is this definition game so important to you?

Because it matters. It matters because one side, Russia, is trying their damndest to confuse everyone and warp reality, Putin is trying to gaslight the planet. Don't fall into his trap. If you equate Ukraine being a proxy war for USA, with NATO being an imperialistic aggressor, you are just playing into Putin's propaganda war. It's better if we don't allow ourselves to be Putin's propaganda pawn. We don't need another Barbos on this forum.

When we have a debate climate like we do now, it's good to be crystal clear on terminology and what we mean.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

It's a damn proper proxy war then. We need to make all our conflicts proxy wars.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true. Europe isn't suddenly grow a pair of balls. We're pathetic right now.

It WAS NOT a proxy war from the start. It was a naked land grab by Russia. An invasion of a peaceful nation, Ukraine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true. Europe isn't suddenly grow a pair of balls. We're pathetic right now.

It WAS NOT a proxy war from the start. It was a naked land grab by Russia. An invasion of a peaceful nation, Ukraine.

Your comment makes no sense. How is the fact that it being a Russian landgrab in any way contradict it being an American proxy war?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's clearly not a proxy war. A proxy war is one that is started by a major power which it does not get directly involved with. I'd be happy to debate the maiden revolution. But that Ukraine kicking out a bad leader that it had every right to evict. Then Russia directly attacked Ukraine. No offense but calling it a proxy war is an insult to Ukrainians fighting for their lives against a much larger army.

Then you're just adding irrelevant and erroneus qualifiers, because why? Why are so many here desperate to deny this is a proxy war between Russia and USA? Just look at the total amount of hardware. If the rest of NATO stopped sending weapons to Ukraine, Ukraine would be fine. It's the American weapons that count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=Countries%20delivering%20military%20aid%20to%20Ukraine&text=In%20total%20aid%20(military%2C%20financial,the%20most%20in%20military%20aid.

Obsessing about who started it is what children do. It has no relevance to why wars keep going, or who takes over as a main beligerent over time.

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

You can call the war anything that you want to. I don't really care about labels or cute phrases. Ukranians are dying. Not Americans. Not Natoians.

Which is why we call it a proxy war. Becuse that's exatly what a proxy war is. Did you read the wikipedia article?

Stressing how the war started is extremely important to the Russians. Putler talks about it every single day. It's how he convinces his dwindling allies to continue their support of his imperialism.

Sure.... but it has ZERO impact on whether or not this is a proxy war. BTW, it was a proxy war right from the start. The moment Russia nabbed Crimea USA built up Ukrains defence for them. Which is why they, at all, survived Russias initial attack. It was all along Russia fighting USA, through Ukraine. Yes, Russia started the war. But that isn't relevant for whether we consider it a proxy war.

It being an American proxy war doesn't make USA evil. Rather the opposite. It make USA the good guys. USA isn't taking advantage of Ukraine. Ukraine is taking advantage of USA. Or rather USA's strong ideological drive towards making the world free.

Calling it an American proxy war, doesn't play into Putin's propaganda either. Putin's idea that NATO is American imperialist expansion is retarded. It's so retarded I can't be bothered to explain why it's not. Calling it an American proxy war is NOT justifying Russian aggression.

If president Biden would anounce to the world that they are no longer going to support Ukraine, Zelensky would capitulate immediately. Then he would have nothing with which to stop Russia, and it would be pointless to drag out their misery. We all know it's true. Europe isn't suddenly grow a pair of balls. We're pathetic right now.

It WAS NOT a proxy war from the start. It was a naked land grab by Russia. An invasion of a peaceful nation, Ukraine.

Your comment makes no sense. How is the fact that it being a Russian landgrab in any way contradict it being an American proxy war?

Coming to the aid of a free country being invaded by an amoral and imperialist nation is not a proxy war.

 

[laughing dog]

We shall see how many Russian Navy ships break down during this visit to the Florida area. During the beginning of hurricane season at that.

They are already there. A Submarine and a surface ship. Cuban President has already visited it. If things go well, you will have russian UAVs harassing floridians soon. And if things go extremely well, you will have russian nukes in Cuba.

If your nukes work as well as your tanks, Cuba should be more worried than the US

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

The fact that Russian attackers are directly fighting and dying makes it not a proxy war.

Who said Russia is just a proxy state for Iran, NK, etc.? That makes more sense if it's going to be called a proxy war.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It WAS NOT a proxy war from the start. It was a naked land grab by Russia. An invasion of a peaceful nation, Ukraine.

Your comment makes no sense. How is the fact that it being a Russian landgrab in any way contradict it being an American proxy war?

Coming to the aid of a free country being invaded by an amoral and imperialist nation is not a proxy war.

Lol. You are delusional regarding Ukraines ability to defend against Russia. If Ukraine is fucked without US aid it means it's a proxy war.

Calling it a proxy war isn't a value judgement, or in any way dimish Ukraines right to defend itself. Nor does it justify Putins actions. It's simply an acknowledgement of where the firepower and ability to fight is coming from.

Trump would like the rest of NATO to pitch in more. But we're not. The Ukrainian side is, pretty much, an American solo show. The moment American aid is paused Ukrainian defences start falling apart. They’re completely dependent on American aid.

What's interesting about this war is how similar it is to WWI. The surveilance technology is now so efficient that fast and aggressive movements and surprise attacks aren't possible.

Whoever has the best gadgets has a sharp advantage. This is why the numerically inferior Ukrainians can, at all, defend against Russia. It's down to American military aid. Much of the donated weapons to Ukraine from EU countries is American military hardware.

Seeing this as a war between Russia and Ukraine where USA is just helping a bit is delusional. The Ukraine war is essentially American gadgets grinding down Russian mob rushes.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The fact that Ukraine would collapse without American support makes it a proxy war.

The fact that Russian attackers are directly fighting and dying makes it not a proxy war.

Who said Russia is just a proxy state for Iran, NK, etc.? That makes more sense if it's going to be called a proxy war.

I agree it's not a Russian proxy war