How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

No, I got it.

And?

What of them?

The guy was fired because Ukrainians were mad at him

 

[barbos]

Here's a bit on Belarus

And?

 

[fromderinside]

Here's a bit on Belarus

And?

hey barbos, why aren't Ukrainian units moving to Ukrainian border with Russia. Oh yeah. I know why. Russia invaded eastern Ukraine and took Crimea as well.

So how can Ukraine be the aggressor when Russia is already inside Ukraine?

Why aren't you speaking out about existing Russian aggression against Ukraine?

 

[barbos]

Here's a bit on Belarus

And?

hey barbos, why aren't Ukrainian units moving to Ukrainian border with Russia. Oh yeah. I know why. Russia invaded eastern Ukraine and took Crimea as well.

So how can Ukraine be the aggressor when Russia is already inside Ukraine?

Why aren't you speaking out about existing Russian aggression against Ukraine?

I did not say Ukraine was an aggressor. I said NATO was an agressor.
NATO (mainly US) made a coup in Ukraine, installed puppet regime and now moves IN. Why aren't you speaking out about that?

[removed video repeat]

 

[Copernicus]

I did not say Ukraine was an aggressor. I said NATO was an agressor.
NATO (mainly US) made a coup in Ukraine, installed puppet regime and now moves IN. Why aren't you speaking out about that?

NATO played no role whatsoever in the Maidan revolution, which is why barbos added "(mainly US)". He knows that, but he wants to claim that NATO was the bad guy. Not even Putin makes that argument. The US and other Western nations did try to play a negotiating role between the protesters and the Ukrainian government, because they had credibility with the protesters, who wanted Ukraine to sign the agreement for a closer relationship with the EU. The US played no other role than that of a go-between trying to help end the violence. What really caused the violence were the ruthless measures by government special forces, police, and provocateurs. Those measures included attacking and killing emergency medical personnel and the destruction of medical facilities containing helpless wounded patients. All of this is thoroughly documented in the public record. There is no record of US or NATO involvement in the protest movement.

 

[zorq]

In 2013 Ukraine's President Yanukovych was notoriously and flagrantly corrupt. That tends to make the local population unhappy. Barbos has posted videos in this thread with data that shows that at the time, more Ukrainians distrusted Russia than Europe. Yanukovych trying to steer Ukraine back into Russia's sphere is also the sort of thing that will piss off certain Ukrainians. Barbos has given NO evidence that the US or any other western power is responsible for Euromaidan OR the makeup of the replacement government.* Instead, it is totally plausible that western meddling wasn't necessary at all because Russia and her puppets earn themselves bad reputations all on their own.

* I acknowledge that John McCain visited and "offered solidarity" with the the Euromaidan Protesters. I acknowledge that US Assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs, Victoria Nuland had a chat with the US ambassador to Ukraine about what they hoped a replacement government in Ukraine would look like. But please notice that neither one of these incidents of "meddling" actually materially contributed to the success of Euromaidan or actually necessarily affected the makeup of the replacement government.

For an example of materially contributing to the success of an insurrection, might I point you to the documented evidence of enlisted Russian soldiers conducting military actions in the Donbass region of Ukraine back in 2014 and 2015. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-troops-in-donbas-court-document-amid-concern-invasion/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

I mean, the title of this thread is kind of silly since Russia has already invaded Ukraine and has been there for seven or eight years now.

Also, even after 2014 NATO did not "move in" to Ukraine. Ukraine is not a part of NATO and has never been offered membership in NATO.

 

[barbos]

Also, even after 2014 NATO did not "move in" to Ukraine

Actually, it did. Weapons, instructors and military planes flyovers.
Ukrainian military kissing american flags.
Biden presiding over governmental meetings.
CIA director visiting Ukraine and directing dealings with "terrorists" in the East.
For all intents and purposes, Ukraine is occupied country. Yes, it's american style occupation, nevertheless it's occupation.

I acknowledge that John McCain visited and "offered solidarity" with the the Euromaidan Protesters

I think you are confused. McCain visited Georgia..... after 2008 War.

Victoria Nuland had a chat with the US ambassador to Ukraine about what they hoped a replacement government in Ukraine would look like.

Yes, she was very active selecting suitable puppets.
Plus she provided food to "protesters"
Plus she had negotiations with Right Sector.
Plus we don't know what else. But imagine russian ambassador on Jan 6 among these "patriots".

For an example of materially contributing to the success of an insurrection, might I point you to the documented evidence of enlisted Russian soldiers conducting military actions

Yes, and this is different from US how?
American instructors, american weapons,.....

As far as Russia concerned, government in Kiev are the insurrectionists and East Ukraine is the only remnant of the Ukraine, like Taiwan.

 

[zorq]

Also, even after 2014 NATO did not "move in" to Ukraine

Actually, it did. Weapons, instructors and military planes flyovers.
Ukrainian military kissing american flags.
Biden presiding over governmental meetings.
CIA director visiting Ukraine and directing dealings with "terrorists" in the East.
For all intents and purposes, Ukraine is occupied country. Yes, it's american style occupation, nevertheless it's occupation.

Proof here that barbos doesn't actually understand what NATO is.

I acknowledge that John McCain visited and "offered solidarity" with the the Euromaidan Protesters

I think you are confused. McCain visited Georgia..... after 2008 War.

Nope, McCain visited Ukraine during Euromaidan too. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

Victoria Nuland had a chat with the US ambassador to Ukraine about what they hoped a replacement government in Ukraine would look like.

Yes, she was very active selecting suitable puppets.
Plus she provided food to "protesters"
Plus she had negotiations with Right Sector.
Plus we don't know what else. But imagine russian ambassador on Jan 6 among these "patriots".

I don't deny that it looks sketchy to Russia, but it isn't the smoking gun that you are making it out to be. Passing out some cookies isn't exactly the same as passing out firearms.

For an example of materially contributing to the success of an insurrection, might I point you to the documented evidence of enlisted Russian soldiers conducting military actions

Yes, and this is different from US how?
American instructors, american weapons,.....

THIS COMMENT!!!! RIGHT HERE! This tells me you are hopeless.

Are you telling me that you can't tell the difference between an invited guest helping out the owner of a house and a trespasser smashing up the house's backyard without their permission?

As far as Russia concerned, government in Kiev are the insurrectionists and East Ukraine is the only remnant of the Ukraine, like Taiwan.

LOL, That's why the DPR and LPR have a U in their acronym. Oh, that's right, they don't. And the fact that there are TWO of them tells us that neither one holds the mantle of "true Ukraine" Not that EITHER one of them actually wants that title. Ridiculous. If Russia REALLY thinks that they have a right to send troops into eastern Ukraine, they wouldn't be trying to hide it. Your excuses are transparently false. Laughably false.

 

[barbos]

Proof here that barbos doesn't actually understand what NATO is.

Actually I know what the NATO is. It's a pretext for moving US troops.
Without NATO membership Russia can, in principle, do what it does now.
Politely ask Ukraine to move US military and all cooperation out of Ukraine or else. If they don't comply then "else" (whatever that is) happens. And NATO can not do much about it. Yes, they can send "help" as individual countries but not so much as block.
Problem is not Ukraine, they are irrelevant, problem is NATO.
In theory, Russia can, in fact, occupy Ukraine, you impose sanctions of some kind.
and that will be the end of it. No war, just some sanctions. 10 more years, Putin retires, new guy comes in and does not let Ukraine go, you keep your sanctions but they really don't and can't work because let's be honest here, Europe needs gas more than they need Ukraine.
So the solution here are basically the Minsk Accords. Ukraine stops trying to harass Russia and its own russian population, declares full neutrality and integrates itself into EU on the conditions which are suitable for Russia. In other words, EU must throw enough bones to Russia as well. But the key here is neutrality and no NATO expansion. So EU should work on pressuring Ukraine into this deal.
And regardless, there is no way Ukraine can become full NATO member any time soon. It's about process for US, they want to be pain in the russian ass. At some point it would become preferable to end it with occupation of Ukraine.



Your Idea that Ukraine being in NATO will somehow tame them shows that it is you who does not understand the issue here.

Are you telling me that you can't tell the difference between an invited guest helping out the owner of a house and a trespasser smashing up the house's backyard without their permission?

After you installed suitable "inviters"?

 

[zorq]

Proof here that barbos doesn't actually understand what NATO is.

Actually I know what the NATO is. It's a pretext for moving US troops.
Without NATO membership Russia can, in principle, do what it does now.
Politely ask Ukraine to move US military and all cooperation out of Ukraine or else. If they don't comply then "else" (whatever that is) happens. And NATO can not do much about it. Yes, they can send "help" as individual countries but not so much as block.

You keep going around in circles. Here you are admitting that Ukraine isn't part of NATO. But you just claimed a moment ago that NATO had moved in. Just how confused has your Russian media conditioning made you?

Problem is not Ukraine, they are irrelevant, problem is NATO.

Ukraine IS largely irrelevant to both Russia, the US AND Europe. But Russia isn't. The problem is Russia's paranoia of NATO (and Russia's leaders' dedication to corruption). You know, Yeltsin thought that it would be a good idea for Russia to join NATO. And if it wasn't for all the corruption Russia's leaders were enjoying after the Soviet breakup, maybe Russia would already be a NATO member today. Russia could still join NATO if it would stop treating it's neighbors like shit and try to clean up it's corruption. That is part of the "21st century thinking" people in the West believed in that was discussed in that first video you were obsessed with. But also as discussed, Putin is a 19th century thinker and can't move past the cold war.

In theory, Russia can, in fact, occupy Ukraine, you impose sanctions of some kind.
and that will be the end of it. No war, just some sanctions. 10 more years, Putin retires, new guy comes in and does not let Ukraine go, you keep your sanctions but they really don't and can't work because let's be honest here, Europe needs gas more than they need Ukraine.
So the solution here are basically the Minsk Accords. Ukraine stops trying to harass Russia and its own russian population, declares full neutrality and integrates itself into EU on the conditions which are suitable for Russia. In other words, EU must throw enough bones to Russia as well. But the key here is neutrality and no NATO expansion. So EU should work on pressuring Ukraine into this deal.
And regardless, there is no way Ukraine can become full NATO member any time soon. It's about process for US, they want to be pain in the russian ass. At some point it would become preferable to end it with occupation of Ukraine.

Your Idea that Ukraine being in NATO will somehow tame them shows that it is you who does not understand the issue here.

What makes you think I want Ukraine in NATO? Sure, lots of Ukrainians want to be in NATO if it keeps Russia from sending in troops to murder them, but I have never suggested that Ukraine should be in NATO.

This exposes another huge misconception you have about the situation. The US DOESN'T want to be a huge pain in Russia's ass. The US wants Russia to stop being a pain in the ass of all of it's neighbors, and join the 21st century. (I know, hilarious coming from the country known for "Invade and grab the oil", but I think it's true.)

Are you telling me that you can't tell the difference between an invited guest helping out the owner of a house and a trespasser smashing up the house's backyard without their permission?

After you installed suitable "inviters"?

The Ukrainian people rejected Putin's puppet on their own. The Ukrainian people overthrew their own corrupt government. The new government invited in help from the West. It isn't clean. But it also isn't a secret NATO plot to ... ? ... steal Ukraine from Russia.

 

[barbos]

But you just claimed a moment ago that NATO had moved in

Yes, what is so confusing for you here?

You know, Yeltsin thought that it would be a good idea for Russia to join NATO.

Not Yeltsin, it was Putin.

Russia could still join NATO if it would stop treating it's neighbors like shit and try to clean up it's corruption.

That's patently false.

This exposes another huge misconception you have about the situation. The US DOESN'T want to be a huge pain in Russia's ass.

You are so wrong here.

The Ukrainian people rejected Putin's puppet on their own.

No, that's not what happened.

You see, I put these videos of all these americans who clearly know the subject (30 years in Russia, reporting about Russia) agreeing with me. And you ignore it and going back to the usual CNN propaganda.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Well, luckily for Ukraine and the soldiers/civilians who will die in the Soviet invasion; the Olympics is starting. It's not sporty for Putin to invade during the Olympics. Wouldn't want imperialism to spoil the Olympic fun. As an aside, clearly western Europe needs to find a more reliable (peaceful) form of energy. Their reliance on Russian natural gas is going to be a problem.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Again, details not supplied to the Russian public. Half-truths and misinformation. Barbos likely does not understand the extent to which he is influenced by the propaganda, since he has access to Western web cites. Still, I think that most of his information is filtered through Russian media, which tends not to have the same diversity of information that you can get in countries with a freer press.

Understandable. It's tough to enunciate with Putin's balls in your mouth.

 

[lpetrich]

It’s not just Tucker Carlson. The right’s soft spot for Putin is also well documented. - "The Fox News host is using his show to spread pro-Russia talking points. It’s worth remembering why so many American conservatives back the Kremlin."
Illustrated with a hat that says "Сделать Америку снова великой" - "Sdelat' Ameriku snova velikoi" - "Make America great again" in Russian.

ox News host Tucker Carlson caused quite a stir online this week when he used his show to spread pro-Russia talking points. But his actions shouldn't really come as a surprise.

On Tuesday, Carlson railed against what he claimed were U.S. efforts to help Ukraine join NATO. Though President Joe Biden has said he's unwilling to close the door on a potential NATO membership for Ukraine, as Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded, Biden said Wednesday that it's "unlikely" Ukraine will join the alliance anytime soon. The issue has been a sticking point during ongoing negotiations between the U.S. and Russia.

Acyn on Twitter: "Tucker: Imagine if Mexico fell under the direct military control of China. We would see that as a threat. There would be no reason for that. That’s how Russia views NATO control of Ukraine and why wouldn’t they? (vid link)" / Twitter
and
Acyn on Twitter: "Tucker: What is NATO and what is the purpose of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union 30 years ago… Well, no one can answer that question. Not one person… (vid link)" / Twitter

This is such a turnaround for the right wing that it's still hard for me to grasp. A nation that right-wingers had called a great enemy for so long is now a nation that many right-wingers like.

Former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke once called Russia, a majority white, Slavic country that frequently opposes the increasingly diverse European Union, the “key to white survival.” White supremacist leader Richard Spencer hailed Russia as the “sole white power in the world” in 2016. Republican approval of Putin grew stronger after Russia was seen by many as having helped Donald Trump win the 2016 presidential election (in part by targeting Black voters with propaganda, I should add). And several American white nationalists have reportedly attended multiple events sanctioned by Russian extremist groups.

For example, in 2015, prominent white nationalist Jared Taylor and KKK lawyer Sam Dickson attended an event organized by far-right Russian extremists. The event was also attended by the Russian Imperial Movement, a white supremacist group focused on building a global network of like-minded groups.

 

[lpetrich]

Tucker Carlson’s Pro-Putin Bias Has Gone Too Far, Kremlin TV Says
"Top Russian state propagandists are concerned that no one will take the Fox News host seriously any more."

During the episode of his Monday show, Carlson pondered: “Why is it disloyal to side with Russia but loyal to side with Ukraine?” Three years earlier, Carlson admitted that he is rooting for Russia in its conflict with Ukraine. He said, in part: “Why do I care… what is going on in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia? And I’m serious. Why do I care? Why shouldn’t I root for Russia, which I am?”

Facing criticism, Carlson walked back his comments and claimed he was “joking.”

That doesn't seem like much of a joke.

Broadcasting the same translated clip of Carlson last week on Russia’s second most-watched TV network, Rossiya-1, host of 60 Minutes Evgeny Popov fawned over Carlson by describing him as one of the “voices of truth and reason” and complained that the host of the most-watched show in all of cable news with millions of viewers is being “silenced and marginalized.” In 2020, Popov demonstrated his affinity for Carlson by introducing him as “practically our co-host.”

Julia Davis on Twitter: "Tuckyo Rose is in full bloom on #Russia's state TV. Multiple clips of Tucker Carlson's rants are being used to corroborate the pro-Kremlin talking points, simultaneously attacking America, Biden, NATO and Ukraine. (vid link)" / Twitter
Referring to Tokyo Rose, a collective name for several women who broadcasted English-language propaganda from Japan in World War II: How 'Tokyo Rose' Became WWII’s Most Notorious Propagandist - HISTORY

 

[Elixir]

Yes, what is so confusing for you here?
That's patently false.
You are so wrong here.
No, that's not what happened.

This isn't debate. It isn't discussion. This isn't even argument.
It's just a Russian shill reflexively pooh-pooing everything that is said that conflicts with the Pootey Party line.

It astonishes me that even the author of the less-than-ankle-deep commentary above doesn't recognize the utter vacuity of his presentation.
His handlers could hire a halfwit or a 'bat to keep endlessly repeating "nuh-unh" to the same effect.

 

[lpetrich]

Last Wednesday, Russia’s English-language state media outlet RT published an op-ed by Irish commentator Graham Dockery, who marveled: “Once considered a sewer pipe of neoconservative jingoism, Fox News is now anti-war—or at least its top-rated host is... The picture is clear: When it comes to Ukraine, pundits and commentators from the establishment left to the neocon right only disagree on how quickly and strongly the U.S. should wade in to stop a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine. Only Carlson, considered far-right by American liberals, is in complete opposition to U.S. involvement.” RT’s writer complained “the sole anti-war voice on prime-time cable happens to belong to a man whom liberals believe is a “white supremacist,” thus undermining his considerable influence.

Tucker Carlson: “You are currently funding a proxy battle in Ukraine against the nuclear-armed Russian military and that could very well erupt into a hot war that includes you, the United States.” World War III. TC dismissed Ukraine as not worth fighting for, “a small corrupt nation” and “a pretty small country.” Even though it is one of the largest and most populous European nations.

“Vladimir Putin is our most dangerous enemy, they scream. We can’t let him hurt Ukraine. So it turns out Russiagate was actually more effective even than we’d realize. The Steele dossier has been debunked, but in Washington, the theme remains in force: Russia, Russia, Russia. Russia is bad. What is this about, exactly? Well, obviously it’s the usual collection of children falling for the usual collection of lies, but why this specific lie?” ... “You still have to wonder, invasion or not, why is any of this a profound concern of ours? Why would you even consider risking American lives or sending billions of dollars to stop it?”

From the story: "Predictably, Carlson’s portrayal of Ukraine as a small, corrupt, insignificant nation that is of no consequence to the U.S. is in perfect alignment with the way Russia’s beleaguered neighbor is being smeared on Kremlin-funded state television, in order to humiliate the fledgling democracy and dissuade it from resisting Russian aggression."

Russian independent television channel Dozhd, also known as TV Rain, noted Carlson’s bizarre fealty to the Kremlin. On Tuesday, host Ekaterina Kotrikadze pointed out: “Tucker Carlson is one of the brightest personalities of the American conservative television channel Fox News. Sometimes it seems that he attends advanced training courses at the Russian Foreign Ministry.”

 

[SLD]

Years ago, I browsed through old articles from Foreign Affairs magazine and found this article published by a Nazi diplomat justifying his country’s decision to invade Poland.

The Origins of This War: a German View

Historians have been able to piece together the sequence of events leading up to the Great War, but the origins of World War II are currently less clear.

www.foreignaffairs.com

 

[lpetrich]

Years ago, I browsed through old articles from Foreign Affairs magazine and found this article published by a Nazi diplomat justifying his country’s decision to invade Poland.

The Origins of This War: a German View

Historians have been able to piece together the sequence of events leading up to the Great War, but the origins of World War II are currently less clear.

www.foreignaffairs.com

That article is paywalled. What was that diplomat's argument?

 

[Thomas II]