How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Loren Pechtel]

Modern guided ordnance is far more effective at killing, but even so I would be surprised if the average is as many as one fatality per bomb or missile.

That is not good enough. What to talk of missiles, even drones cost millions of USD.

Drone Type	Cost Range
Entry-Level Consumer Drones	$500 - $2,000
Mid-Level Military Drones	$2,000 - $10,000
High-End Military Drones	$50,000 and above
Specialized Military Drones	A few thousand to tens of millions of dollars

Those expensive drones are not weapons. Those are the eyes in the sky type.

And lines can get blurred. We didn't have anything that fancy back in Desert Storm, but there was a drone over Baghdad that the air defenses were very aggressively trying to shoot down. And much cheering when it went down--although it actually went down because it ran out of fuel after it was intentionally left on station because the defenders were so conveniently pinpointing their locations with their fire.

 

[bilby]

Another matter: I am disappointed that there have been so many strikes in these wars but the number of deaths have not been as high. I would not like to fire a bomb if it does not kill at least 50 people.

I think you have it backwards; More people are killed per bomb now than was the case in the past.

During the Blitz in WWII, the British government estimated that there were about 50 casualties, of whom about a third were killed and the rest injured, per ton of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe.

That roughly translates to 15 bombs dropped per death.

Your numbers do not make sense. Do you perhaps mean "thousand" rather than "ton"?

No, per ton. What do you think doesn't make sense?

The vast majority of Luftwaffe bombs dropped on London were 2lb incendiaries.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh, they're starting to figure it out. Things blowing up in your neighborhood will do that.

That's the way it looks to me.

I don't much trust modern media coverage. Especially dramatic video coverage from war zones. But my YouTube is full of stuff about Russian infrastructure going BOOM, and shortages of basics like fuel and stuff.
Don't know but I am glad I'm not in Russia at this time.
Tom

It's much harder to fake all the secondary stuff--myriad reports of shortages mean a lot more than video of things going boom. You actually want to deceive people who are paying attention, you have to keep the lies believable. Russia doesn't do that.

 

[steve_bank]

One of Hitler's major blunders was switching from strategic attacks on RAF infrastructure to terror bombing cities.

It allowed the RAF to rearm and train pilots. At the peak new pilots had short life expectancy.

The V1 and V2 were terror weapons V for vengeance. They were not precision in any sense, The V1 was timed by fuel consumption. The V2 had a crude gyro control system.

The fire bombing led the RAF to respond in kind. At first Churchill opposed it, then gave in. The Dresden inferno. Hell on Earth.

Another Hitler blunder was they never had the heavy bomber equitable in numbers to the Brits and Americans. Germans had short time over target over England.

Hitler rolled the dice when he started WWII. Germany was not prepare dd for long term full scale war. Around 90 days of fuel A portion of transport was horse drawn.

Despite propaganda depicting a fully motorized Blitzkrieg, about 80% of the World War II German Army's logistics and transport relied on horses. Germany used roughly 2.75 million horses throughout the conflict because of a lack of oil resources, underdeveloped automotive manufacturing, and a critical shortage of trucks.

In the Pacific Curtis Le May resorted to fire bombing Japan. Nukes were the ultimate terror weapon.

In short neither Putin nor his advisors appear to have never read anything on WII or militray tactics.

Logistics, supply chains, and the 2 1/2 ton truck won WWII.

A little known fact hat initially in Europe Allies used fuel cans that leaked, it we was significant.. They adapted the German Jerry Can, welded steel.

The devil is in he details.

In the long run Russia can not match the increasing material support from Europe for Ukraine. Like thePatriot system. Europe is giving Ukraine intellectual property license to manufacture defense systems.

 

[bilby]

The V1 was timed by fuel consumption.

No, it wasn't. It had a system that measured distance flown, and set full down elavator at a set range. The sudden deflection caused the engine to cut out, which gave those on the ground warning that it was about to hit; Later versions were modified to gradually increase elevator declection so they would power dive, but these came too late in the war to be used in significant numbers.

The psychological effect was likely greater in the original design anyway; That sudden silence that meant it was going to hit close-by must have been a bowel-loosening event.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

DW, BBC, France24, and NHK from Japan are on local PBS stations every weeknight.

On the grud coverage in Gaza and Ukraine.

If you think mainstream media is completely untrustworthy than certain forces have succeeded. You do not know what to believe. Then people like Trump advances his own narrative as truth.

Mainstream is not trustworthy. It's just the alternatives are worse.

You talk of on the ground in Gaza: all such reporting is actually Hamas, no matter what the label says. All news organizations have some major biases built in:

1) They will be slanted in the direction the viewers on average like.

2) Reporting will be biased towards the side of controversy. When there is no controversy people don't pay attention. "It's nothing" doesn't get eyeballs.

3) Reporting will be very heavily biased towards having something to report. This shows up in areas where there's substantial censorship--you want your reporters to be able to operate, you report what the censors want you to report.

These factors apply to all news sources.

Then places like Faux deliberately do worse.

 

[ZiprHead]

The Soviet paradigm was make everybody equal, equally miserable.

We Russians can't let Ukrainians be enjoying freedoms and having good times, we need to drag them down with us.

actually, most soviet people were less miserable than most americans now.

A question to ponder.
If US citizens could go to Russia with no strings nor questions asked and vice-versa for Russians, in which direction would the planes be most full?

Most people would stay in their countries in both countries most of the time.
and it is really stupid question. You constantly create shit for Russia and then come and say "See Russia is a bad country!"
When in reality it is you who is a bad country because you are actively shit everywhere, that's is how you keep appearance of less shit inside your own country.

It does not work anymore. You can't shit in Russia and you especially can't shit in China.

Between March and August of 2022, more than half a million men left Russia in a hurry. Since then, that many have left this world.

Have you counted ukrainians who left Ukraine?
Ukraine is 20mil people country now. It was 51 million in 1991

Ukraine has 32 million people. No need to exagerate.

 

[bilby]

Hitler rolled the dice when he started WWII. Germany was not prepare dd for long term full scale war.

They didn't need to be; By June 1941, they had won the war. Western Europe was occupied by German forces or under puppet governments beholden the the Third Reich; Eastern Euroope was divided up between Germany and her ally, the USSR; The USA was neutral, and Germany's only remaining serious enemy (the UK) had lost the vast majority of her land warfare equipment and had no easy prospect of replacing it.

Only the Royal Navy, as both a blockading force (and more importantly as a blockade-breaking force allowing the new US Lend-Lease materiel to cross the Atlantic) was left as a serious threat, and despite the three month old Lend Lease Act making the strangling of the Home Islands look less easy than it had seemed in March, it was basically all over.

Hitler won WWII. Then he and his Japanese ally stupidly started two new wars, against the USSR and the USA.

If Japan had allowed the US to remain neutral (or of Hitler had thown Japan under the bus and declared for the US, and against Japan), or indeed if any of dozens of things had gone just a little better for Operation Barbarossa, the USSR would have fallen, and Germany would have won round two by the end of 1942.

The whole thing was very close-run. There was nothing inevitable about an allied victory, and very few people would have bet on that outcome in early June 1941; The smart money was on Hitler. Of course, his downfall came in large part from his (justified but over-done) confidence in his military might.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Barbos appears ten to support genocide.

When it comes to Ukraine I fully support genocide of their nazi clown government.

Learn the words you use.

Genocide of a government is not possible.

 

[Tigers!]

A new thread could be ...

'How should Russia respond to the possibility the conflict it started may not be win Able''

Russia did not start it and we are winning anyway. Last I heard Putin was pretty giddy

Tell him not to turn around too fast. That should stop the giddyness.

 

[barbos]

Barbos appears ten to support genocide.

When it comes to Ukraine I fully support genocide of their nazi clown government.

Learn the words you use.

Genocide of a government is not possible.

It's quite possible and should be done.

 

[barbos]

The Soviet paradigm was make everybody equal, equally miserable.

We Russians can't let Ukrainians be enjoying freedoms and having good times, we need to drag them down with us.

actually, most soviet people were less miserable than most americans now.

A question to ponder.
If US citizens could go to Russia with no strings nor questions asked and vice-versa for Russians, in which direction would the planes be most full?

Most people would stay in their countries in both countries most of the time.
and it is really stupid question. You constantly create shit for Russia and then come and say "See Russia is a bad country!"
When in reality it is you who is a bad country because you are actively shit everywhere, that's is how you keep appearance of less shit inside your own country.

It does not work anymore. You can't shit in Russia and you especially can't shit in China.

Between March and August of 2022, more than half a million men left Russia in a hurry. Since then, that many have left this world.

Have you counted ukrainians who left Ukraine?
Ukraine is 20mil people country now. It was 51 million in 1991

Ukraine has 32 million people. No need to exagerate.

Technically maybe, by 10millions out of 32 are not in Ukraine.

 

[Bronzeage]

The Soviet paradigm was make everybody equal, equally miserable.

We Russians can't let Ukrainians be enjoying freedoms and having good times, we need to drag them down with us.

actually, most soviet people were less miserable than most americans now.

A question to ponder.
If US citizens could go to Russia with no strings nor questions asked and vice-versa for Russians, in which direction would the planes be most full?

Most people would stay in their countries in both countries most of the time.
and it is really stupid question. You constantly create shit for Russia and then come and say "See Russia is a bad country!"
When in reality it is you who is a bad country because you are actively shit everywhere, that's is how you keep appearance of less shit inside your own country.

It does not work anymore. You can't shit in Russia and you especially can't shit in China.

Between March and August of 2022, more than half a million men left Russia in a hurry. Since then, that many have left this world.

Have you counted ukrainians who left Ukraine?
Ukraine is 20mil people country now. It was 51 million in 1991

Ukraine has 32 million people. No need to exagerate.

Technically maybe, by 10millions out of 32 are not in Ukraine.

And Ukraine still manages to kick Russia's ass.

 

[aupmanyav]

In war, you likely don't live long enough to learn from your mistakes.

In wars, if people are killed, others take their place. Of course, Iranians leaders gathering at one place was a golden opportunity for Israel, and they did not miss it. But then, there is a new Ayatollah and new generals.

And Ukraine still manages to kick Russia's ass.

Russian invasion was not very efficient. Ukraine has done well. Let us see where it ends.

 

[aupmanyav]

That roughly translates to 15 bombs dropped per death.

That is a very poor dividend to the expenses involved. I hope in any future war, Indian bombs, missiles, drones get a better return.
Indians are pretty satisfied how "Operation Sindoor" played out, militarily and politically. The 'Indus Water Treaty' remains junked. Also no personal or business exchange with Pakistan. Saves us to some extent from infiltrators and transport of narcotics and arms from Pakistan.

 

[Bronzeage]

That roughly translates to 15 bombs dropped per death.

That is a very poor dividend to the expenses involved. I hope in any future war, Indian bombs, missiles, drones get a better return.
Indians are pretty satisfied how "Operation Sindoor" played out, militarily and politically. The 'Indus Water Treaty' remains junked. Also no personal or business exchange with Pakistan. Saves us to some extent from infiltrators and transport of narcotics and arms from Pakistan.

That was WW2. Most of the bombs dropped failed to hit the intended target.

 

[steve_bank]

Russia did not start it and we are winning anyway. Last I heard Putin was pretty giddy

Giddiness when a war is going on for four years with hundreds of thousands of causalities and Russia hit by missiles and drones is likely a sign of losing touch with reality.

Slipping into insanity.

Either that or it is drugs.

People like Putin never know when to quit while they are ahead. If Hitler had stood pat and consolidated his gains leaving the Brits and Russia alone the world might be a different place today.

Russia had a lease in Crimea for a base and seaport. Putin took Crimea to make it permanent and got away with it. He could not stop.

The Russian legislature essentially made him dictator for life and rubber stamped his agenda. He had it all, as far as a dictator would want. Absolute control. But it was not enough.

Mussolini and Hitler dragged their countries down..

 

[bilby]

That roughly translates to 15 bombs dropped per death.

That is a very poor dividend to the expenses involved. I hope in any future war, Indian bombs, missiles, drones get a better return.
Indians are pretty satisfied how "Operation Sindoor" played out, militarily and politically. The 'Indus Water Treaty' remains junked. Also no personal or business exchange with Pakistan. Saves us to some extent from infiltrators and transport of narcotics and arms from Pakistan.

That was WW2. Most of the bombs dropped failed to hit the intended target.

It was considered a good result if they hit the intended city.

 

[barbos]

The Soviet paradigm was make everybody equal, equally miserable.

We Russians can't let Ukrainians be enjoying freedoms and having good times, we need to drag them down with us.

actually, most soviet people were less miserable than most americans now.

A question to ponder.
If US citizens could go to Russia with no strings nor questions asked and vice-versa for Russians, in which direction would the planes be most full?

Most people would stay in their countries in both countries most of the time.
and it is really stupid question. You constantly create shit for Russia and then come and say "See Russia is a bad country!"
When in reality it is you who is a bad country because you are actively shit everywhere, that's is how you keep appearance of less shit inside your own country.

It does not work anymore. You can't shit in Russia and you especially can't shit in China.

Between March and August of 2022, more than half a million men left Russia in a hurry. Since then, that many have left this world.

Have you counted ukrainians who left Ukraine?
Ukraine is 20mil people country now. It was 51 million in 1991

Ukraine has 32 million people. No need to exagerate.

Technically maybe, by 10millions out of 32 are not in Ukraine.

And Ukraine still manages to kick Russia's ass.

No they didn't, not even with the help of Collective West.

 

[barbos]

Giddiness when a war is going on for four years with hundreds of thousands of causalities and Russia hit by missiles and drones is likely a sign of losing touch with reality.

That particular giddiness was a sign that all of this going to end soon.
Having said that, Putin is often awkward. So Putin's giddiness is a sign that things are looking good.