How to reduce / defeat racism?

[TSwizzle]

When I think of racist problems, I think of things like "hate crimes", like going up to a black person, screaming "nigger" in their face and then punching them in the mouth for no reason other than they are black or making your black neighbor's life a misery because you just don't like black folks or other irrational stuff. I don't get too worked up about the navel gazing subconscious prejudice/bias background noise. But this appears to be what most people want to discuss. Making the whole thing a minefield and people afraid of being called a racist.

What do you think hurts a black person more, being called "nigger" or not getting hired for a job because they're black.

I don't know. It would depend on the person, on their gender identity preference, where they are on the socio-economic scale, etc. Maybe you could find a study on it.

This stuff is measurable. We can measure the effects of the subconscious on populations. So it's not woo

I think most of it will be navel gazing codswallop.

 

[steve_bank]

I grew up in th 50s 60s. There was racism in my family. An Italiann was dating an aunt. Some of her brothers took him out and told there was no way a stniking Italian was going to marry their sister, He did and thay had a great family. Rook years for her brothers to accept him.

On the other hand Italians then were notoriously parochial. You don't marry outside the group.

Rwo things happened for me. My father was not recist, his view anyone who went out and worked was ok. Along with that I lived for abot 7 years in integrated public housing. We had black neighbors. My sister babysat for black neighbor.

When I got out in the world I had positive images of blacks as neighbors.

I go to a nearby park. Kids of all backgrounds playing together.

If you want to inoculate your kids have them socialize regularly with different people.

Each generation does it a little better. I am 67. hard core racists and blacks who endured abuse are still alive today and bith carry the scars. It could take centuries to get past it

A woman I know who came from Peru had a daughter who married a black guy. His family objected and his family shunned the wife's side.

I knew a Jewish woman in the 70s who got engaged to a divorced Catholic. Her parents were ok with it, some in her famiy treated her as a non person, shunned.

It is everywhere. As long as ethnicity and race are elevated above identifying with the larger group it will persist.That is why progressive ethnic diversity over a common melting pot is adding fuel to the fire. Commercials for genetic testing. A black woman generically traces to the region of Nigeria. She starts earing a Nigerian hat proclaiming it is part of her culture. A white guy traces to Scotland and starts wearing kilts. It is all rubbish.

Your racial history does not define your culture. The idea that it does fuels divides. Here and elsewhere.

 

[JohnG]

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-research-study-trump

One approach is to pursue certain policies in a race-neutral manner. For example, equipping police with body cameras has become a prominent idea in response to the police shootings of black men over the past few years. But the inherent idea behind body cameras doesn’t have to be racial — it can just be about generally holding police accountable, no matter whom they’re interacting with. And indeed, polls have found that support for body cameras on police officers in general hovers above 90 percent.

This is interesting. I have often thought that Trump may have been easily able to get his wall had he not made it all about race.

I know I know, that was his whole point.

 

[JohnG]

"White privilege" is basically coded racism. It's saying whites should be put down regardless of whether they did wrong or not.

No, that's not what it means. It refers to the fact that our society places hurdles in front of non-whites, especially black people. Those who use and understand the term do not intend to bring down white people, but to eliminate the hurdles for non-whites.

It's not an insult.

 

[Angry Floof]

"White privilege" is basically coded racism. It's saying whites should be put down regardless of whether they did wrong or not.

No, that's not what it means. It refers to the fact that our society places hurdles in front of non-whites, especially black people. Those who use and understand the term do not intend to bring down white people, but to eliminate the hurdles for non-whites.

It's not an insult.

It's also not personal.

 

[J842P]

While this undoubtedly exists, I doubt this is what causes the biggest problems. The biggest problems I think is what's called "structural racism". That's people who think and say they're not racist, but by analysing their behaviour clearly are.

For example. I might avoid hiring a black person even though I'm not racist. I'm worried about that other people may be racist, and that might harm my business, so I stick to hiring white people. I'd never consciously think this, but I will subconsciously judge non-whites more.

I don't see this as being overtly racist since you ascribe it as being subconscious and also there is another logical/rationale factor at play. i.e. how does this particular hiring affect my business and there may be other factors at play.

When I think of racist problems, I think of things like "hate crimes", like going up to a black person, screaming "nigger" in their face and then punching them in the mouth for no reason other than they are black or making your black neighbor's life a misery because you just don't like black folks or other irrational stuff. I don't get too worked up about the navel gazing subconscious prejudice/bias background noise. But this appears to be what most people want to discuss. Making the whole thing a minefield and people afraid of being called a racist.

What do you think hurts a black person more, being called "nigger" or not getting hired for a job because they're black.

This stuff is measurable. We can measure the effects of the subconscious on populations. So it's not woo

Are you referring to implicit bias? Because the scientific footing of that is hardly solid, and as far as I can tell, it's usefulness is limited to lining the pockets of the consulting industry it has spawned.

 

[Jokodo]

What do you think hurts a black person more, being called "nigger" or not getting hired for a job because they're black.

This stuff is measurable. We can measure the effects of the subconscious on populations. So it's not woo

Are you referring to implicit bias? Because the scientific footing of that is hardly solid, and as far as I can tell, it's usefulness is limited to lining the pockets of the consulting industry it has spawned.

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

 

[J842P]

What do you think hurts a black person more, being called "nigger" or not getting hired for a job because they're black.

This stuff is measurable. We can measure the effects of the subconscious on populations. So it's not woo

Are you referring to implicit bias? Because the scientific footing of that is hardly solid, and as far as I can tell, it's usefulness is limited to lining the pockets of the consulting industry it has spawned.

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

Right. That isn't implicit bias.

 

[Jokodo]

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

Right. That isn't implicit bias.

You were replying to a post that talked about "not getting hired for a job because they're black".

It seems like the person you replied to was talking about exactly the kind of thing we both agree exists, and your there's no need to turn this into a discussion of your favourite bogeyman.

 

[J842P]

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

Right. That isn't implicit bias.

You were replying to a post that talked about "not getting hired for a job because they're black".

It seems like the person you replied to was talking about exactly the kind of thing we both agree exists, and your there's no need to turn this into a discussion of your favourite bogeyman.

My favorite bogeyman? Have I ever brought this up previously? The only time I can even remember discussing this was on the original thread where we were asked to take the Harvard IAT, and if I recall correctly (which is not a given) I probably defended the research at that point in time ( I'm guessing around 2014/2013).

I was asking Dr. Zoidberg what he was referring to exactly to avoid a pointless back and forth where people just talk passed each other about different things, because I can't be sure what he means. The phrase "measuring the effects of the subconscious" makes it vague and ambiguous at best.

 

[Jokodo]

You were replying to a post that talked about "not getting hired for a job because they're black".

It seems like the person you replied to was talking about exactly the kind of thing we both agree exists, and your there's no need to turn this into a discussion of your favourite bogeyman.

My favorite bogeyman? Have I ever brought this up previously? The only time I can even remember discussing this was on the original thread where we were asked to take the Harvard IAT, and if I recall correctly (which is not a given) I probably defended the research at that point in time ( I'm guessing around 2014/2013).

I was asking Dr. Zoidberg what he was referring to exactly to avoid a pointless back and forth where people just talk passed each other about different things.

OK, my bad.

It seemed to me like you were injecting it because you just love to hate on it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"White privilege" is basically coded racism. It's saying whites should be put down regardless of whether they did wrong or not.

No, that's not what it means. It refers to the fact that our society places hurdles in front of non-whites, especially black people. Those who use and understand the term do not intend to bring down white people, but to eliminate the hurdles for non-whites.

It's not an insult.

Except those hurdles somehow don't apply to Asians and have little effect on immigrants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you think hurts a black person more, being called "nigger" or not getting hired for a job because they're black.

This stuff is measurable. We can measure the effects of the subconscious on populations. So it's not woo

Are you referring to implicit bias? Because the scientific footing of that is hardly solid, and as far as I can tell, it's usefulness is limited to lining the pockets of the consulting industry it has spawned.

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

I haven't heard about female. As for "minority"--what that really means is "black". Strangely enough, "black" names are statistically associated with substantially lower education than "white" names. Is this discrimination against blacks, or against names?

I haven't heard about a pattern with addresses but it wouldn't surprise me--but that's about the average person from the neighborhood, not about race.

 

[JohnG]

"White privilege" is basically coded racism. It's saying whites should be put down regardless of whether they did wrong or not.

No, that's not what it means. It refers to the fact that our society places hurdles in front of non-whites, especially black people. Those who use and understand the term do not intend to bring down white people, but to eliminate the hurdles for non-whites.

It's not an insult.

Except those hurdles somehow don't apply to Asians and have little effect on immigrants.

The history of black people in America is sadly very different than other groups.

 

[Jokodo]

There are plenty of controlled experiments showing that e. g. rates of getting an interview for job applications are quite significantly lower when the only difference is a female/minority/foreign sounding name or an address in a disreputed neighborhood.

I haven't heard about female.

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 for a recent-ish research paper, some of it discussed here: https://www.aauw.org/2015/06/11/john-or-jennifer/

You're welcome. Can you say thanks?

As for "minority"--what that really means is "black". Strangely enough, "black" names are statistically associated with substantially lower education than "white" names.

...which is perfectly irrelevant when both names come packaged with a complete resume listing the exact same stations in life.

Is this discrimination against blacks, or against names?

I haven't heard about a pattern with addresses but it wouldn't surprise me--but that's about the average person from the neighborhood, not about race.

Again we're talking about application with identical resumes to the letter. The average person from the neighborhood is perfectly irrelevant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except those hurdles somehow don't apply to Asians and have little effect on immigrants.

The history of black people in America is sadly very different than other groups.

So "non-white" is a synonym for "black"???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 for a recent-ish research paper, some of it discussed here: https://www.aauw.org/2015/06/11/john-or-jennifer/

You're welcome. Can you say thanks?

As for "minority"--what that really means is "black". Strangely enough, "black" names are statistically associated with substantially lower education than "white" names.

...which is perfectly irrelevant when both names come packaged with a complete resume listing the exact same stations in life.

Is this discrimination against blacks, or against names?

I haven't heard about a pattern with addresses but it wouldn't surprise me--but that's about the average person from the neighborhood, not about race.

Again we're talking about application with identical resumes to the letter. The average person from the neighborhood is perfectly irrelevant.

You're assuming the resume paints a perfect picture of the worker. That's not the case, employers are going to be aware of what others like them have been like as employees.

 

[JohnG]

Except those hurdles somehow don't apply to Asians and have little effect on immigrants.

The history of black people in America is sadly very different than other groups.

So "non-white" is a synonym for "black"???

No.

 

[Jokodo]

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 for a recent-ish research paper, some of it discussed here: https://www.aauw.org/2015/06/11/john-or-jennifer/

You're welcome. Can you say thanks?



...which is perfectly irrelevant when both names come packaged with a complete resume listing the exact same stations in life.



Again we're talking about application with identical resumes to the letter. The average person from the neighborhood is perfectly irrelevant.

You're assuming the resume paints a perfect picture of the worker. That's not the case, employers are going to be aware of what others like them have been like as employees.

You're the one assuming and defending making unfounded assumptions.

 

[Trausti]

"White privilege" is basically coded racism. It's saying whites should be put down regardless of whether they did wrong or not.

No, that's not what it means. It refers to the fact that our society places hurdles in front of non-whites, especially black people. Those who use and understand the term do not intend to bring down white people, but to eliminate the hurdles for non-whites.

It's not an insult.

Complex intersections of race and class: Among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty.

White privilege lessons are sometimes used to increase awareness of racism. However, little research has investigated the consequences of these lessons. Across 2 studies (N = 1,189), we hypothesized that White privilege lessons may both highlight structural privilege based on race, and simultaneously decrease sympathy for other challenges some White people endure (e.g., poverty)—especially among social liberals who may be particularly receptive to structural explanations of inequality. Indeed, both studies revealed that while social liberals were overall more sympathetic to poor people than social conservatives, reading about White privilege decreased their sympathy for a poor White (vs. Black) person. Moreover, these shifts in sympathy were associated with greater punishment/blame and fewer external attributions for a poor White person’s plight. We conclude that, among social liberals, White privilege lessons may increase beliefs that poor White people have failed to take advantage of their racial privilege—leading to negative social evaluations.