How Will the Economy Improve?

[Loren Pechtel]

Just look around, the only unions that exist are ones that can't be destroyed by competition business owners, media moguls, and their pet politicians.

FTFY.

If competition was what killed trade unions, then Germany wouldn't have them any more than the USA does.

American workers have been persuaded (both by manipulation and by violence and threats) that unionisation is bad for their interests, and as a consequence have worse pay, worse conditions, and worse protections, than their EU counterparts, in exchange for which losses, they get the massive benefit of living in a country that has lots of hyper-wealthy multi-billionaires, some of whom they might occasionally glimpse at a distance.

You genuinely believe that unions are a bad thing. While simultaneously believing that the United States of America is a good thing. So which is it: Is collective action to improve the lot of all, good, or bad?

I am absolutely certain that you don't know what unions actually do, and that you think their primary role is to go on strike in order to try to force the company to raise pay regardless of whether such raises are justified or affordable.

You're not addressing the point. It's not that American workers have been persuaded unions are bad, but that union companies couldn't compete with non-union companies. If it really was a case of being bad for the workers why does the US have the highest PPP-adjusted per capita income of any real economy country in the world? (I'm not counting the playgrounds of the rich, nor the oil countries. Their per-capita is not based on their economy.)

 

[Jarhyn]

My husband has been chronicling the events of the last few days from a perspective a recent exchange between China and the Trump administration: Trump claimed to have been meeting with Xi, claiming to be getting close to a "deal", while privately freaking out about a 1928 event (despite the fact his is more a late 1930's Germany presidency), and then China publicly denouncing those claims along with a ship with about 280k+ empty shipping containers to drive home the fact that China isn't playing with the Trump administration and he's going to be the one backing down.

I have over the last few days thought, more than once, "just let him pretend until the tariffs go away, and then tell the world he backed down all on his own, and send a container ship painted "good boy" on the side, filled with dog biscuits or whatever."

 

[bilby]

You're not addressing the point. It's not that American workers have been persuaded unions are bad, but that union companies couldn't compete with non-union companies.

That's not an observation that needs to be addressed, it's the conclusion you are seeking to defend.

The observation is that unionisation is less common in the US than it is in other developed nations.

Your assessment that this is due to union companies being less competitive founders on the observation that other developed countries have both competitive markets AND unionisation.

Clearly there must be another reason.

 

[bilby]

If it really was a case of being bad for the workers why does the US have the highest PPP-adjusted per capita income of any real economy country in the world?

Because that income is mostly not earned by blue-collar workers. You are equivocating between "workers who might benefit from a union" and "people with employment income".

I'm not counting the playgrounds of the rich

Yeah, you are. The USA includes many such.

 

[Elixir]

except in situations where they are actually involved in managing the company.

Waitaminit. They already committed to full time jobs as the people’s representatives.
They shouldn’t be “involved” in other pursuits whatsoever.

 

[Swammerdami]

These problems you are complaining about happened because of the destruction of unions, which is something the oligarchs helped to cause, i.e., people like Trump. Even now, he is destroying a federal employee union, which only helps to disempower labor everywhere else. They won't be happy until poor people and their poor children work in factories again for less money than in China.

I agree losing unions was devastating to the middle class. I disagree with you who caused most of this. The Democrats hurt unions FAR worse than the oligarchs when they shunned all the manufacturing jobs that could support unions. Even today, they are attempting to bring down Tesla which is one of the few firms still able to support high wages and/or unions. Even today Democrats will do their best to make sure the US does not mine rare earth materials.

A lot of wildlife extinction comes about due to destruction of natural habitat. That is exactly what Democrats did to high wages and unions. Today they are doing everything possible to make sure Trump fails with bringing high wage high value manufacturing back to America. That's because Democrats want the US to be a poor country so they can better be elected with give away programs the government can no longer afford to pay.

This preposterous meme -- that "Democrats" seek to flood the country with brown-skinned immigrants or to impoverish Americans in order to improve their chances in future elections -- is both exceptionally nasty and exceptionally stupid.

First of all, the Ds have trouble strategizing properly for an election just weeks away. The idea that the Ds are planning years ahead as some sentient super-being, smarter than the sum of its parts like some ant colony, is just absurd.

Moreover it is the Ds who have consistently improved the economy and improved the conditions of working Americans. The data is very VERY clear on this point. Graphs have been shown at this very message board proving this over and over again. Yet those facts are consistently ignored by the sycophants of QAnon and the GOP. Some people just like to complain about "fake news" while wallowing in the lies from FoxNews, OAN, Jimmy Dore etc.

Recently one of Trump's fascist cohorts openly admitted their propaganda:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You genuinely believe that unions are a bad thing. While simultaneously believing that the United States of America is a good thing. So which is it: Is collective action to improve the lot of all, good, or bad?

I am absolutely certain that you don't know what unions actually do, and that you think their primary role is to go on strike in order to try to force the company to raise pay regardless of whether such raises are justified or affordable.

You're not addressing the point. It's not that American workers have been persuaded unions are bad, but that union companies couldn't compete with non-union companies. If it really was a case of being bad for the workers why does the US have the highest PPP-adjusted per capita income of any real economy country in the world? (I'm not counting the playgrounds of the rich, nor the oil countries. Their per-capita is not based on their economy.)

Nonsense. Among the six countries with highest rates of unionization, five are the Scandinavian countries: Finland, Sweden, Denmark etc. These countries all have low income inequality (GINI), high "happiness" scores, excellent social welfare (health, vacations etc.) and all appear near the top of per-capita GDP lists. Oh BTW -- the per-capita GDP positions of these countries relative to that of the USA IMPROVE when the PPP adjustment is used. (IMF 2025 stats, according to Wikipedia, show Denmark and USA in a virtual tie for GDP/PPP.

6. Norway * 107,892 2025
...
9. United States * 89,105 2025
. Cayman Islands * 85,168 2022
. Isle of Man * 84,600 2014
10. Denmark * 88,934 2025

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On another matter, while it is non-trivial to assess the impact of DEBT, do be aware that it is external debt that is of greatest concern to sovereign nations, not internal debt. China has been building up FX surplus at a ferocious rate.

 

[Politesse]

BUT, how will he improve things? What is the plan? The Plan is and always has been to END SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA. Americans, Republicans, and oligarchs are going to be crying at economic losses and just begging for an end to the sanctions to improve energy costs. He's getting popular support.

Easy: when people have finally had enough, the hammer and sickle will come out and clean House.

 

[Toni]

What am I missing? Do people just want to sit around and wait to die?

It was called "Bankruptcy 1995."

An excellent point I take seriously because like you I remember a lot of doom and gloom throughout the years.

But the predicted doom does finally seem to be arriving now. Look at how un-affordable and un-attainable housing is for young people today. Look at how young people can

Mostly this is a problem of expectations. Young people have always had a hard time affording housing. My parents, both with degrees, bought their first (and only) house in their 50s.

not find decent employment without an un-affordable college degree. Look at how those same young people can not afford to reproduce anymore as well. Look at how automated and digital our economy is, yet with all this tech our productivity is still so embarrassing low, a family can not survive without both parents working.

They need to pay attention to the market. So many of those degrees are in things that aren't valuable in the job market.

Look at how a divisive POTUS (Trump) that half the population can't stand got elected and then re-elected again.

Disinformation at work.

That kind of stuff just does not happen until an empire reaches it's doom loop crises phase IMO.

Fasten your seatbelts.

We were doing ok until we elected him. He's breaking the country.

My parents, neither of whom went to college, and my mother a stay at home parent, purchased their first home at age 32. Zero assistance from family for down payment. It was a very modest home but a big upgrade from the re take we had lived in prior. My husband and I purchased our first home at age 30, but with assistance. Not fancy but sufficient for our needs.

Three of our kids are home owners. The first to buy a home bought it with his girlfriend, who was the money person as that kid had gone back to school and then law school. The next bought his house—definitely a fixer upper—on his own but with VA financing, in his early 30’s. The youngest to purchase a home did so without telling anybody until he notified us of his change of address He had just started looking and went to an open house for a town house, that just he could just barely afford, in his early 30’s.

None of these homes are big or fancy and we live in the Midwest, which helps for home prices. Two of the kids live in The Big City or its suburbs where home prices are significantly higher than our small town.

I’ve noticed a sudden dramatic upwards shift in prices of homes in my area. It is definitely getting much more expensive to purchase a home even in small towns in flyover country. Part of that is that for young adults who are typically drawn to urban areas are moving to smaller areas because of housing prices and also the stresses of living in urban areas. With more work from home available, it’s more possible. While one of my kids is considering dating moving ‘back home’ to our home town, the influx is putting even more pressure on home prices.

Did you know that Amazon is selling tiny homes? I guess that’s what the billionaire class thinks will solve the housing.

 

[Elixir]

In 1970 at the tender age of 20, I bought three houses on one parcel, by the grace of the owner (an old old lady) who just wanted a few hundred bucks of monthly income. The total purchase price (after a reduction following a survey) was $11,500. I lived in one, and after working hard on one of the others, I was able to rent it out for $290, and the third as a workshop for $150. Interest rate was 7% but the monthly payment was still a few bucks less than the income it generated. After six years or so I was able to tear down the house I had been living in, and basically camped out on the property while a tenant and I built a new house. That property became quite valuable, and by the mid-90s we were able to sell it and use the gains from it (and a couple of flips) to buy 15 riverfront acres and build the house we now live in.
The entire time I lived basically hand-to-mouth, and have always been perfectly comfortable being cash-poor.
Until we sold the most recent business venture in 2018, was I never NOT cash poor, and it has taken the last 5-6 years to get used to it. I still don’t buy new cars, fancy food or any of the things I used to think it would be nice to have, but I love where I live and am largely insulated from stuff like Trump’s insanity.
I love my animals, and they have ALWAYS been what gets me through tough times. That plus food shelter and clothing are plenty good enough.

Poverty really REALLY sucks.
But at this point in my life, big time riches would be a burden. Upon reflection, that has always been the case, I just didn’t really know it the way I do now.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, I'm in my 'don't need no fancy stuff' years although I've always been a picky eater so I am willing to spring for food I like vs eating cheap stuff I dislike. Fortunately, I like pasta and rice. And fortunately for us, one of the kids' home purchase included a chest freezer they didn't want and hubby had always wanted one so we have it now. Hubby kept grousing because I kept stocking it up whenever some cut of meat or other freezable was on sale at the grocery store and I kept countering it made no sense and was more expensive to run an empty freezer and it is pretty well stocked now and hubby reads the news enough to figure we're in good shape for a while if things get bad.

So long as we don't lose power. In which case, we will be quickly donating whatever we can to those who need it.*

* I also donate to the local food shelf, any food drive I'm aware of and occasionally to people I know who are in need. Cash and food from the grocery store, depending on situation.

 

[ZiprHead]

$1 Trillion of Wealth Was Created for the 19 Richest U.S. Households Last Year

The wealthiest have gotten richer, and control a record share of America’s wealth. New data suggest $1 trillion of wealth was created for the 19 richest American households alone in 2024. That is more than the value of Switzerland’s entire economy.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

U.S. economy shrank 0.3% in the first quarter as Trump policy uncertainty weighed on businesses​

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Trump announces trade deal with UK as tariffs continue to spark economic uncertainty​

The administration is really trying to market this as a success and get followers to extrapolate this is what awaits all other countries, more deals from The Great Negotiator.

 

[TomC]

Trump announces trade deal with UK as tariffs continue to spark economic uncertainty​

The administration is really trying to market this as a success and get followers to extrapolate this is what awaits all other countries, more deals from The Great Negotiator.

A report I saw pointed out two things.
It's not a deal, it's an agreement to more negotiations.
We had a trade surplus with UK, not a deficit.
Tom

 

[TV and credit cards]

Trump announces trade deal with UK as tariffs continue to spark economic uncertainty​

The administration is really trying to market this as a success and get followers to extrapolate this is what awaits all other countries, more deals from The Great Negotiator.

A report I saw pointed out two things.
It's not a deal, it's an agreement to more negotiations.
We had a trade surplus with UK, not a deficit.
Tom

CNBC called this the lowest hanging fruit of trade agreements.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Trump’s egg price fiction has suddenly become reality​

They haven't really gone down too much, but I wonder how this happened.

 

[robnisch]

Trump’s egg price fiction has suddenly become reality​

They haven't really gone down too much, but I wonder how this happened.

Well, it takes about 5 months to raise a layer. So, we have more healthy layers, duh.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I thought they were getting bird immunity.

 

[ImGod]

Didn't they change the response too?

Most large operations are now shower in shower out. You can't go from one house to another without decontaminating. They were culling all birds at a facility based on one bird's test. Now they may only be culling one house and testing the others.

Swine is similar on large farms. You don't just walk around. Swine diseases could destroy the entire US herd. Some are worse than bird flu.