If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Elixir]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

But in Ohio you can still eat them, right?

 

[TomC]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

I'm pretty sure Indiana doesn't.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

But in Ohio you can still eat them, right?

Dogs can be eaten legally in most states. Slaughter and sale for food have been illegal since 2016, however. The Obama administration quietly made the FDA a weapon against many traditional foodways; horse and dog became effectively illegal to produce for food, and many other traditional food sources became harder to acquire during his tenure. He tried to do the same thing with cuy (the food version of the guinea pig) but didn't have time to enact such a policy before his term in office concluded, so cuy can still be found on some menus in states with many Andean immigrants.

 

[southernhybrid]

Now that we are back on topic, or at least we were for a little while, until y'all went off again, I'll add my rant. I basically agree with Toni. I've also worked in public health back when abortions were not only legal, the federal government paid for them if the woman was low income. They were not for convenience, as far I could ever tell, and the vast majority of them were in the first 2 months of the pregnancy.

I personally knew a woman who had one because her husband was abusive, and she already had 4 children with him and was planning on getting a divorce. She was in the first trimester. I know someone who was raped and opted for an early abortion.

When I worked in public health in a maternity clinic for a year during the early 80s, only one patient chose to have an abortion and it was in the first trimester. That was her decision, regardless of the reason. One of my patients was a 14 year old girl who had been raped but never told anyone, so it was too late for her to have an abortion, since she was about 7 or 8 months pregnant. I almost wished another one had the opportunity to have an abortion but it was too late for her. She came into my office with her mother and said, "I ain't been with no boy". I had to compose myself and simply told her that she was going to give birth in less than 2 months. I always worried about that baby.

Only one woman chose to give up her baby for adoption and because she was white, the doctors who agreed to care for these women were trying to place that baby with someone they knew. Sadly, at least in the past, minority babies weren't or maybe still aren't usually as much in demand and often end up in foster homes or being cared for by grandparents who are overwhelmed. I used to exercise with a grandmother who was trying to raise 4 of her grands, while the mom was in prison and the dad had abandoned them. Is it better to bring these unfortunate children into the world, or to at least offer their mothers the opportunity to end an unwanted pregnancy? Nobody asks to be born, and a lot of poverty stricken children end up in horrible situations. Nobody should be forced to have an abortion, but no women should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy either. Nobody has gotten a late term abortion unless the life of the mother is in danger or the fetus isn't viable. There are a lot of lies told by Republicans about late term abortions.

Here's another thing, back in the 80s, a women who was over 35 could be checked to see if she was carrying a fetus with Down's syndrome and then decide if she wanted to have an abortion. Maybe that seems cruel, but many of these victims of Down's aren't raised properly or are given up and then end up in institutions. Plus, when I was doing a nursing clinical as a student in Texas, babies who were born to heroin addicts were only given drugs to comfort them, and they were allowed to die. That did seem cruel, but I guess the belief was that these babies wouldn't be properly cared for by their mothers. I really don't know why that practice went on, or if the chances were low that those babies would survive, but it upset some of us students.

These days it seems we go overboard trying to save very premature babies, who often have little chance of survival and may end up with serious disabilities if they do survive. I'm not sure which is more cruel, letting nature take its course, or giving what may be false hope to the parents by providing very expensive aggressive care hoping the premature infant will survive. It's complicated.

And, it pisses me off when men think they have the right to tell women what they must do regarding a pregnancy. It's none of their damn business what a woman chooses to do, and a nonviable fetus is not the same as a fully developed human. But sure, every fertilized egg must be given full civil rights. /s

 

[southernhybrid]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

 

[pood]

Who cares.
It doesn’t happen enough to be any kind of social disease that needs to be addressed by a government. I agree that it sounds disgusting, immoral, unethical and like a bad thing. So much so in fact, that I have foregone any plans I ever had to engage in such a thing. How about you?

I think the inconvience of a pregnancy can seem to outweigh the issues with killing an unborn baby...

Not really, because the only babies that exist are born babies.

 

[pood]

BTW I think in a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience - e.g. the woman might want to keep working or something ("to behave more like a man")

Evidence? Or did Elon Musk say that?

 

[Politesse]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

 

[southernhybrid]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

What are you smoking today?

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

Sadly, you may be right, although we weren't talking about dead babies. We were discussing the rights of a women to terminate a pregnancy. I've just never seen as many derails here lately as there were in the past. Poor Gospel and the mods have their work cut out for him, unless derails are now a positive part of this place. Could be.

 

[pood]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

What are you smoking today?

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

Sadly, you may be right, although we weren't talking about dead babies. We were discussing the rights of a women to terminate a pregnancy. I've just never seen as many derails here lately as there were in the past. Poor Gospel and the mods have their work cut out for him, unless derails are now a positive part of this place. Could be.

I suspect she was being sarcastic or ironic.

 

[southernhybrid]

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

What are you smoking today?

What the fuck is this thread about? Btw, if you're lonely, get a dog. They give you unconditional love as long as you give them a comfortable home and some food and water. Who wins the prize for the best derail of this thread?

Most states have laws against pursuing romantic relationships with a dog, I think.

Love isn't the same as romance and I think you are a cat lover, but I doubt you are having a romantic relationship with your cat, are you?

My point is that pet ownership is hardly scratching the same itch as an AI dating sim. Japan nearly invented the matket for the latter, and not because they don't keep pets, they are a famously cat-devoted nation as well.

And my point is that a dog is good company if you are lonely, not that a dog has anything to do with any type of romance.

Now, can we get back to the topic again?

But no one wants to talk about that. Dead babies, boooring. What a snore fest.

Sadly, you may be right, although we weren't talking about dead babies. We were discussing the rights of a women to terminate a pregnancy. I've just never seen as many derails here lately as there were in the past. Poor Gospel and the mods have their work cut out for him, unless derails are now a positive part of this place. Could be.

I suspect she was being sarcastic or ironic.

I know and I was just messing with them. And, I have no idea how I messed up that last post. Must be haunted.

 

[Shadowy Man]

BTW I think in a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience - e.g. the woman might want to keep working or something ("to behave more like a man")

Evidence? Or did Elon Musk say that?

I think for this thread all that matters is if it is an interesting idea.

 

[Politesse]

So much pronoun recognition in this thread!

 

[excreationist]

I think in a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience

You keep saying that. Has it happened to you a lot of times? What is the basis for that belief?
Statistics don’t back it up.

BTW I think in a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience - e.g. the woman might want to keep working or something ("to behave more like a man")

Evidence? Or did Elon Musk say that?

U.S. Abortion Statistics

Facts and figures relating to the frequency of abortion in the United States.

abort73.com

Here are some statistics: (I assume they are somewhat accurate)

Percentage Reason
<0.5% Victim of rape
3% Fetal health problems
4% Physical health problems
4% Would interfere with education or career
7% Not mature enough to raise a child
8% Don't want to be a single mother
19% Done having children
23% Can't afford a baby
25% Not ready for a child
6% Other

So involving rape, incest or threatening the life of the mother aren't a majority of the reasons. For the other cases an alternative is to put the baby up for adoption.
Bronzeage in post #23 said that abortions can "allow her to behave more like a man" (related to convenience?)

 

[Elixir]

So involving rape, incest or threatening the life of the mother aren't a majority of the reasons

You forget to link to source material? provided sans support by a person who seems to believe Elon Musk.

Most are not medical or rape-related, true. Those are the people who now die in hospital parking lots. My wife had three ectopic pregnancies, any one of which would have likely killed her if it was in one of the twenty something States where bans now apply.
Whatever the reason, IMHO the dominant operative principle must be
NONE OF YOUR GODDAM BUSINESS.
(Assuming you’re not the pregnant one)

 

[excreationist]

So involving rape, incest or threatening the life of the mother aren't a majority of the reasons

You forget to link to source material?

I provided a link to the webpage I copied and pasted the statistics from. The statistics for rape and health problems are part of that.

provided sans support by a person who seems to believe Elon Musk.

Most are not medical or rape-related, true. Those are the people who now die in hospital parking lots. My wife had three ectopic pregnancies, any one of which would have likely killed her if it was in one of the twenty something States where bans now apply.
Whatever the reason, IMHO the dominant operative principle must be
NONE OF YOUR GODDAM BUSINESS.
(Assuming you’re not the pregnant one)

I thought I justified my statement that "a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience".

 

[Elixir]

"a large number of abortions the issue is just the inconvenience".

A large number of trips to the grocery store, the issue is just the convenience. And people die on the way to the grocery store and because of people going to the grocery store.
Should going to the grocery store be considered murder?
Should non-sentient aggregations of cells EVER take primacy over humans’ personal decisions?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A baby cannot survive immersed in amniotic fluid so it’s a stupid question.

Elon says whatever he thinks will cause more power and money to accrue to Elon Musk. It is unforgivably naive to think the guy has relevant opinions about anything else.

En Caul birth. Won't last long if something isn't done, though.

 

[excreationist]

Nobody has gotten a late term abortion unless the life of the mother is in danger or the fetus isn't viable. There are a lot of lies told by Republicans about late term abortions.

Well I intended this thread to just be about late term abortions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok. That was a lot to read and I will admit I am not inclined to read all of it. But it doesn’t come across so far as someone speaking from a well-researched opinion but more like the ranting of a highly opinionated person.

Yes it is obviously a rant of a highly opinionated person. Though he did say it was based on what a Democrat website says. I find him to be thorough with research (especially with his tech companies - apparently he gets the engineers to teach him like 70% or something of the knowledge involved)

If there’s an objective case to be made about immigration and the plans of democrats to allegedly fast track illegals to green cards I’d rather read that.

I don't see the point in me trying to investigate it (since my time is somewhat precious - I just wanted to share why Musk is supporting the Republicans). It seems Elon Musk is convinced of it though and I can now understand why he chose the Republican party this time (he said in the interview that he doesn't always side with the Republicans). In the interview he also talked about Twitter/X and how he values the freedom of speech. He also talked about the Democrats trying to shut him down due to SpaceX not hiring asylum seekers or something 14 minutes in (and that laws often contradict each other so every company would be guilty of something).

If he believes in freedom of speech why does Twitter censor inconvenient facts so much?

Ok. I was referring to just those couple of items.

But Elon has lost enough credibility in my eyes that I don’t feel motivated to waste my time listening to his opinion on much.

I think he gives good justifications for anything he believes in. So I'll continue to take him seriously.

He's a loon.