If You Can't Show Me Your God, It's Because You Don't Really Have One.

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In a response to another poster I used those exact words but thought maybe a thread was needed to discuss same. It's the best answer imho to any god claim, and is much like a poster of old who often said, "Show Me Your God."

Let's be entirely honest, If you can't show me your god it's really because you don't have one. Can it get any simpler? No angels, no devils, no magic books, no arguments. Just ante up or fold. Game over.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, you can always use the evidence of the actions of a god in order to infer that existence of that god without actually showing the god itself.

For instance, without God, how would you have things like tides and sunsets?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. It's meant to be taken as a way to give a deep and insightful comment about the vastness of the Almighty's power. It is not meant to be taken as an opportunity to explain how tides and sunsets just happen naturally without the need for any kind of divine interference and any attempts to do such a thing will be ignored as a derail from the point being made.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The problem with God is that this God is stated to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. But the Universe appears to be absent any god at all and does not operate as we would expect a Universe with an omni-everything God. So in the end, we end up with the problem of trying to explain that away. Its about saving appearances, not demonstrating such a God exists. It's a case of self delusion and rationalization.

 

[TSwizzle]

I seem to remember briefly watching a debate where a believer was asked to show god and the believer said something along the lines of "you know that wind exists, you can feel it but you can't see it" and dropped the mic and left. Was it Hitchens that said "if you are going to make extraordinary claims you had better have extraordinary evidence". ?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

It was Carl Sagan that popularized that meme. And its still true.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The problem with God is that this God is stated to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. But the Universe appears to be absent any god at all and does not operate as we would expect a Universe with an omni-everything God. So in the end, we end up with the problem of trying to explain that away. Its about saving appearances, not demonstrating such a God exists. It's a case of self delusion and rationalization.

Do you think believers are mad at the Universe? They're upset that it isn't what they want it to be, that they themselves are not what they wish they were. So they pretend there is something else, something better, something that can be whatever they wish. Enter their invented magic spaceman, someone who tells them "yes" and takes care of the bad things and bullies. So I think that's another good response.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The problem with God is that this God is stated to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. But the Universe appears to be absent any god at all and does not operate as we would expect a Universe with an omni-everything God. So in the end, we end up with the problem of trying to explain that away. Its about saving appearances, not demonstrating such a God exists. It's a case of self delusion and rationalization.

Do you think believers are mad at the Universe? They're upset that it isn't what they want it to be, that they themselves are not what they wish they were. So they pretend there is something else, something better, something that can be whatever they wish. Enter their invented magic spaceman, someone who tells them "yes" and takes care of the bad things and bullies. So I think that's another good response.

Yes, wishful thinking. because they want to go to heaven and life a happy hereafter forever and ever. And science can't offer them that yet. And in the afterlife, the evil doers will be punished. They may get by with doing evil here, but when they die, they will be sorry.

But then, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

 

[bilby]

Life isn't fair.

This is a distressing fact. But religion allows people to resolve this by simply declaring that there's another, counterbalancing realm (the afterlife), which can render the totality of existence fair. Hooray!

Of course, most people also think that 'fair' means 'usually I get my way'. So everyone has somewhat different ideas about what that afterlife might entail. But they all agree that they will be able to gloat at the suffering of the people who got away with being mean to them in life.

So that's nice.

It's philosophy for five-year-olds. Grown ups learn that unfairness is unavoidable, and that they have to just let things go when thay are beyond our ability to resolve. Infants simply appeal to an all powerful father figure who can force the nasty person to behave fairly, or at the very least can hand out punishments for their bad behaviour.

That's how the phrase "I'll pray for you" came to mean the same thing as "I'm telling on you, and then you're going to be sorry".

 

[Bronzeage]

Well, you can always use the evidence of the actions of a god in order to infer that existence of that god without actually showing the god itself.

For instance, without God, how would you have things like tides and sunsets?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. It's meant to be taken as a way to give a deep and insightful comment about the vastness of the Almighty's power. It is not meant to be taken as an opportunity to explain how tides and sunsets just happen naturally without the need for any kind of divine interference and any attempts to do such a thing will be ignored as a derail from the point being made.

You have to admit, being able to drag the ocean up onto the beach is a pretty impressive trick.

 

[bilby]

Well, you can always use the evidence of the actions of a god in order to infer that existence of that god without actually showing the god itself.

For instance, without God, how would you have things like tides and sunsets?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. It's meant to be taken as a way to give a deep and insightful comment about the vastness of the Almighty's power. It is not meant to be taken as an opportunity to explain how tides and sunsets just happen naturally without the need for any kind of divine interference and any attempts to do such a thing will be ignored as a derail from the point being made.

You have to admit, being able to drag the ocean up onto the beach is a pretty impressive trick.

Not really. I can fill a bathtub. It's just the same thing on a bigger scale.

 

[Bronzeage]

You have to admit, being able to drag the ocean up onto the beach is a pretty impressive trick.

Not really. I can fill a bathtub. It's just the same thing on a bigger scale.

It is not. If you could make the water higher on one end than on the other, depending on where you were standing, you could get booked on a show called Someplace Has Talent.

 

[bilby]

Not really. I can fill a bathtub. It's just the same thing on a bigger scale.

It is not. If you could make the water higher on one end than on the other, depending on where you were standing, you could get booked on a show called Someplace Has Talent.

Oh, well if you are going to simply dismiss my ad-hoc and clearly incorrect explanation, then I guess I can dismiss theirs too.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Life isn't fair.

This is a distressing fact. But religion allows people to resolve this by simply declaring that there's another, counterbalancing realm (the afterlife), which can render the totality of existence fair. Hooray!

Of course, most people also think that 'fair' means 'usually I get my way'. So everyone has somewhat different ideas about what that afterlife might entail. But they all agree that they will be able to gloat at the suffering of the people who got away with being mean to them in life.

So that's nice.

It's philosophy for five-year-olds. Grown ups learn that unfairness is unavoidable, and that they have to just let things go when thay are beyond our ability to resolve. Infants simply appeal to an all powerful father figure who can force the nasty person to behave fairly, or at the very least can hand out punishments for their bad behaviour.

That's how the phrase "I'll pray for you" came to mean the same thing as "I'm telling on you, and then you're going to be sorry".

This is one of Plato's answer to atheism in his Laws, Book X. God is a conscientious workman who never lets a job go undone or poorly done. So in the afterlife to come, all wrongs will be redressed.

The problem with this is there is no proof that it's true. It's just an assertion. A hope, possibly a delusion. And one of the oldest apologisms in the book.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hugh Ross says he can see god everywhere... the one he believes in too! You can't argue with Hugh Ross and his ability to see god everywhere.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really. I can fill a bathtub. It's just the same thing on a bigger scale.

It is not. If you could make the water higher on one end than on the other, depending on where you were standing, you could get booked on a show called Someplace Has Talent.

It is called seiche.

 

[Underseer]

In a response to another poster I used those exact words but thought maybe a thread was needed to discuss same. It's the best answer imho to any god claim, and is much like a poster of old who often said, "Show Me Your God."

Let's be entirely honest, If you can't show me your god it's really because you don't have one. Can it get any simpler? No angels, no devils, no magic books, no arguments. Just ante up or fold. Game over.

I love with an invisible pixie named Gertrude. Gertrude causes the reason to happen, so if you've ever seen rain, you've seen the evidence that Gertrude is real. You don't deny that reason is real do you?

Good, so Gertrude is definitely real and I proved it. If you can't see Gertrude, it must be because you don't believe hard enough. If you believe in her, you will see her just like I do. If you don't see her, it's because you don't want to see her. You have to let her into your heart first before you look to see if she is really there.

 

[OLDMAN]

When asked if they could believe in heaven and not hell, most believers would drop heaven, wanting to keep hell. They have a real need for justice to exist in the world. Which is understandable. They're are people who get away with terrible things, and live great, comfortable lives. Then there are people who live good lives and suffer horrible endings. Where is the justice in that? What other purpose could God serve? Of course they're not long lending hell fire to everyone outside their beliefs, and to me that is where they lose all my empathy.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

When asked if they could believe in heaven and not hell, most believers would drop heaven, wanting to keep hell. They have a real need for justice to exist in the world. Which is understandable. They're are people who get away with terrible things, and live great, comfortable lives. Then there are people who live good lives and suffer horrible endings. Where is the justice in that? What other purpose could God serve? Of course they're not long lending hell fire to everyone outside their beliefs, and to me that is where they lose all my empathy.

A common, pretentious, self serving, sack-of-shit refrain, that there must be another life where the lowly and unfortunate are righteously raised up in glory, and the comfortable get their due.

Hey, if it's all you think you have to get you through another day, pretend away. But why does your god make you suffer in the first place? Oh yah, Eve, the apple, that bitch. Mercy.

 

[Malintent]

Not really. I can fill a bathtub. It's just the same thing on a bigger scale.

It is not. If you could make the water higher on one end than on the other, depending on where you were standing, you could get booked on a show called Someplace Has Talent.

gravity is the weakest force known. Very unimpressive. It fills our universe.. it is expansive... universally critical.. and part and parcel of the fabric of existence... but weak as shit. Let me show you how unbelievably weak and unimpressive gravity is:

Look on the ground for a small object.. like a paperclip.. It is on the ground because the earth exerts the force of gravity from its mass onto the object (and vice versa). Now, bend over and pick it up. What is your mass versus the mass of Earth? Yet, you plucked the object away from the entire mass of the Earth with just two fingers.

Gravity... psh!

 

[JCS60]

It is not. If you could make the water higher on one end than on the other, depending on where you were standing, you could get booked on a show called Someplace Has Talent.

gravity is the weakest force known. Very unimpressive. It fills our universe.. it is expansive... universally critical.. and part and parcel of the fabric of existence... but weak as shit. Let me show you how unbelievably weak and unimpressive gravity is:

Look on the ground for a small object.. like a paperclip.. It is on the ground because the earth exerts the force of gravity from its mass onto the object (and vice versa). Now, bend over and pick it up. What is your mass versus the mass of Earth? Yet, you plucked the object away from the entire mass of the Earth with just two fingers.

Gravity... psh!

A better test of gravity is string a rope between two real tall buildings say thirty stories up. Now climb out on that rope between the two buildings and hang there by one hand while holding the paper clip in the other hand for several hours. How long before you are forced to concede the paper clip to gravity?

 

[blastula]

Gravity acts over longer distances than the other forces.