Impeachment II thread

[Jarhyn]

Yeah, that's the real goal.

Picture this: these humans have an open exploit ,called "acceptance of insider authority". This exploit allows the injection of lies into their worldview; all it takes is an insider authority saying something and then they start believing that. Prior to Trump, the only people who had access to this exploit were the republican party, carefully curating a set of beneficial lies over the course of years to further their political aims. You could almost liken this to a large scale botnet running on an open exploit in a computer network. In fact, that's where I'm going to take this, as an analogy.

Suddenly, after years of careful maintanence, someone far more reckless and far less intelligent gets access to this exploit. Instead of quietly manipulating the worldview structures, though, the lies he injects are absolutely fucking crazy. Where the previously (and ironically) conservative manipulation had only involved minor lies like "trickle down", this new group of authority figures is now introducing shit like "they rape and eat babies".

This creates two problems for them. One is that to people that don't really display this exploit, the exploit itself is now painfully obvious and clearly problematic. But the second is far worse for the people who were previously using it: this new authority figure closed a lot of their own access, and pushed so much bullshit into the system that now, all their shit is broken and they have to play nice with this group that wrecked their shit.

They can't close the exploit either: it is still the only thing allowing them to hang onto their "useful idiots", whom they need to win elections and thus maintain any appearance of power.

They can't shut him out without shutting themselves out and they can't afford to shut themselves out, and any admission that they were lying or at fault will do exactly that

I don't buy it. Aren't we more likely to distrust insider authority? He was the top guy in government. I see it more as the "us vs them" psychological mechanic. Trump says things that his base identify with and then formulate a vision of the enemy and then just relentlessly hammer home how evil they are. Since the base aren't the other he can make up any vile shit about the other and his base will buy it. It's also always smart to portray yourself as the underdog. That's all the deep state bullshit he's been dog whistling about.

It's a simpler story anyway. Your theory makes Trump out to be some sort of tactical genius. Which I find hard to believe.

I've been watching it happen in real time for decades. With my parents, with everyone, really. And no, progressives will often distrust authority, but conservatives are interesting specifically because studies time and and again show they have a 'virtue drive'

It also happens to coincide with the values differences between the populations: conservatives (on average) unlike democrats, have two virtues that are not shared by progressives. They are "authority/authoritarian respect" and "purity". These have clearly been leveraged and hedged by conservative leaders to push propaganda and close off access to outsiders.

Your own post is even describing some of the action that incorporates the exploit: say things that the authority says, build up authority, say it from the same platform as the authority, and then you can say anything you want, generally. As long as you don't try to run afoul of anything already in there, you're golden. And then the "purity" mechanism is used to keep out those who have been programmed as outsiders.

It doesn't require tactical genius to see "oh, I can use useful idiots", any more than it takes conscious planning for, say, a fungus to hijack the brain of a frog. All it takes is to be the sort of creature that just does that, trained carefully to consistently apply a flow chart, to have a consistent MO that "just works".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Castor says if you impeach Trump then what's to stop either party impeaching any president they dislike? The slippery slope argument. It's about as daft as "But if a traffic cop writes this guy a ticket then what's to stop traffic jams because now cops are writing everyone tickets?"

If presidents are subject to impeachment trials after leaving office, does that mean they'll all get impeached? That'll stop congress from getting things done, says Castor. Well, NO, if most presidents do not perform egregious acts on the scale Trump has done, it will not be a problem.

He's suggesting this impeachment is an act of whimsy and it sure as fuck is not.

Impeachment trials should be rare, says Castor. THAT'S RIGHT! They should be rare in exactly the way murder trials SHOULD be rare. It's not prosecuting them that is the problem, it's how anyone is put into the position of HAVING to prosecute that is the problem.

And if you don't impeach, all future one-term presidents would try coups. Worst thing that could happen it does not work and they retire.

That isn't exactly accurate. Trump violated his oath, he is being punished (or the Dems are trying to) for doing that. There are other ways the GOP is working at ensuring victory at the voting polls that are a lot easier than coups, because you can't pull off a coup with military support... which is why Trump is no longer President. Had Trump had the military's support, he'd still be President.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I mean, if I had been in the Capitol Police - especially if my fellow officer was being crushed in a door, I would've said, enough of this shit and started opening fire. I'm stunned they didn't.

It's pretty basic crowd control. In a revolution the moment uniformed men start shooting at the protesters the revolution gains speed.

That isn't what happened where the woman was shot. They stopped quite literally, dead in their tracks. They were making a move for the House Chamber and were stopped by the firing of a single bullet. The difference I'd say that actually mattered was confinement. There were more people outside and unconfined and quite capable of making with murder, where as the people near the House Chamber were confined.

 

[Keith&Co.]

All it takes is to be the sort of creature that just does that, trained carefully to consistently apply a flow chart, to have a consistent MO that "just works".

Don't even neeed to kniw what consistent would be.
Trump just threw 'build a wall' out there at a speech. No real plan behind it.
Got some enthusiastic feedback.
So, he said it again.
More positive feedback. Rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth approval.
Suddenly it's a plank, central to his campaign.
Doesn't require tactical genius, just trial-and-error with a sensitivity to full-throated approval.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Worldtraveller]

View attachment 31821

I've been pointing this out to MAGAts for while now. They always change the subject. I'm sure they're waiting for one of their authoritative sources (you know, like Tucker Carlson) to tell them that's different, for....reasons.

 

[Shadowy Man]

View attachment 31821

To be fair, Trump’s own lawyer suggested that maybe they should arrest him instead of impeaching him.

 

[southernhybrid]

Did anyone else read or hear that Trump was outraged because his lawyer said that the Dems did a good job of presenting their case?

It's so obvious that without Trump, this attempted insurrection would never have happened. Trump didn't even tell the idiots to go home until they had done a lot of damage. Then he tells them he loves them. They did this because they believed that's what Trump wanted them to do. Trump is guilty as hell, but I doubt enough Republicans have the courage to do the right thing.

In less than an hour, we will see what comes next.

 

[Elixir]

My fav argument from Trump's crack defense team (defense team on crack?) so far:

"Democrats are only doing this because they are afraid to run against Trump in 2024"

Riiiight. Democrats are afraid to run against the guy who lost the House, lost the Senate, and lost the White House by 8 million votes.
Those lawyers must think Dems fear that Trump made a lot of new friends by attacking democracy, staging a failed coup attempt and getting a bunch of people killed.

Seriously ... it is even possible to dream up a less formidable opponent than a washed up 78 year old fanatic who has failed misterably at every turn?
Deep down, I wish Republicans would dump him and return to what used to be conservative values. But for sheer schadenfreude, it's hard to beat the specter of four years of those spineless fools following Trump over the cliff and into oblivion. Individually, they totally deserve it.
But the Country would be better off with a viable party that could oppose the excesses of Democrats that will inevitably occur if their only obstacle is the Coup Cucks Clan Party (CCCP).

Trump didn't even tell the idiots to go home until they had done a lot of damage.

I think you're soft-peddling it. Trump was NOT going to tell them to go anywhere until it was obvious that the coup was a total failure, and persistence would only increase his exposure. It's not like death and destruction meant anything to him.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Did anyone else read or hear that Trump was outraged because his lawyer said that the Dems did a good job of presenting their case?

Also, he was unimpressed by their opening. After all, he gave them almost a week to prepare for making a presentation to congress.

Maybe he'll get so disappointed he'll take over his own defense? Fire the lawyers and start threatening the Senate?

 

[ideologyhunter]

He was already warmed up with 400,000+ bodies on the covid landscape. What's a few more?

 

[Elixir]

He was already warmed up with 400,000+ bodies on the covid landscape. What's a few more?

[Crocodile Dundee Voice] "That's not a defense, THIS is a defense!" [/CDV]

Michigan's Top Republican Calls U.S. Capitol Attack A 'Hoax'

Michigan's highest ranking Republican leader was caught on video calling the Jan. 6 attack at the U.S. Capitol a "hoax" and espousing other conspiracy theories related to the siege.

Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, in a video posted on YouTube of a meeting with Hillsdale County Republican Party officials, said of the Capitol insurrection in which five people died: "It was all staged."

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I mean, if I had been in the Capitol Police - especially if my fellow officer was being crushed in a door, I would've said, enough of this shit and started opening fire. I'm stunned they didn't.

It's pretty basic crowd control. In a revolution the moment uniformed men start shooting at the protesters the revolution gains speed. It's just counter productive. The only way to deal with it is to contain them physically and prevent their movements. Then one by one try separating people from the main group, and pull them away and put them in jail. As protesters get hungry and need to use the toilet they'll lose steam. In fascist dictatorships if anybody opens fire it's from another group than those representing the government. Not even they dare shooting their own citizens during protests.

Gotta agree, Zoid. That took a lot of self control. I don't know what would have happened if they had not exercised such professional restraint. There's a part of me that thinks Orange and his mob wanted police to start shooting.

 

[Treedbear]

... Then he holds up Mao's little red book and takes another slurp from his water.

[Did the little red book part really happen?]
...

Donald Trump's defense lawyer David Schoen brandishes Mao's little red book to argue impeachment is partisan attack on ex-president's rights and accuses Democrats of 'lust for impeachment'

 

[Worldtraveller]

My fav argument from Trump's crack defense team (defense team on crack?) so far:

"Democrats are only doing this because they are afraid to run against Trump in 2024"

Riiiight. Democrats are afraid to run against the guy who lost the House, lost the Senate, and lost the White House by 8 million votes.
Those lawyers must think Dems fear that Trump made a lot of new friends by attacking democracy, staging a failed coup attempt and getting a bunch of people killed.

Seriously ... it is even possible to dream up a less formidable opponent than a washed up 78 year old fanatic who has failed misterably at every turn?
Deep down, I wish Republicans would dump him and return to what used to be conservative values. But for sheer schadenfreude, it's hard to beat the specter of four years of those spineless fools following Trump over the cliff and into oblivion. Individually, they totally deserve it.
But the Country would be better off with a viable party that could oppose the excesses of Democrats that will inevitably occur if their only obstacle is the Coup Cucks Clan Party (CCCP).

I wouldn't underestimate trump's chances. Even if he's just as unpopular in 4 years, his hardcore base of rabid morons will still be there. The GOP has already started putting up road blocks for the next election. It may be enough.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

House Impeachment Managers start second day with a gruesome reminder of the violence by lugging and displaying the dead victims of the riot into the Senate Chamber, without body bags. Most Republicans continued to doodle and Sen. Paul worked on his Ayn Rand fan fic.

 

[blastula]

Schoen argues that the impeachment proceedings will drag down our prestige in the eyes of the world, and that the Dem's have been advocating for impeachment since early 2017. Well if they'd gotten it done back then then Jan. 6th wouldn't have happened and the world wouldn't be so skeptical of our system to begin with. Also, from other reporting on CSPAN he misrepresents statements by Brian C. Kalt, an American legal scholar. In fact it's already become an entry in Wikipedia:

And a house manager had already mentioned how they quote mined Kalt, and he still tried to use it, like nobody would remember. So perfectly post-truth.

 

[Elixir]

My fav argument from Trump's crack defense team (defense team on crack?) so far:

"Democrats are only doing this because they are afraid to run against Trump in 2024"

Riiiight. Democrats are afraid to run against the guy who lost the House, lost the Senate, and lost the White House by 8 million votes.
Those lawyers must think Dems fear that Trump made a lot of new friends by attacking democracy, staging a failed coup attempt and getting a bunch of people killed.

Seriously ... it is even possible to dream up a less formidable opponent than a washed up 78 year old fanatic who has failed misterably at every turn?
Deep down, I wish Republicans would dump him and return to what used to be conservative values. But for sheer schadenfreude, it's hard to beat the specter of four years of those spineless fools following Trump over the cliff and into oblivion. Individually, they totally deserve it.
But the Country would be better off with a viable party that could oppose the excesses of Democrats that will inevitably occur if their only obstacle is the Coup Cucks Clan Party (CCCP).

I wouldn't underestimate trump's chances. Even if he's just as unpopular in 4 years, his hardcore base of rabid morons will still be there. The GOP has already started putting up road blocks for the next election. It may be enough.

Trump now lacks the power to disable all safety rails, seed the judiciary with toadies and install co-conspirators in every official capacity that matters. Therefore he will need VOTES to win, and and he isn't making any new fans AFAICS.
Assuming he still has 100% of his "old" fans by 2024, that's not enough as has been demonstrated in 2020, even with all the voter suppression tactics that a Republican White House, Senate, DOJ and SCOTUS could help provide. Now, he has lost all those crucial assets. No Bill Barr to spin his next treasonous act or turn a blind eye to his Tax, Campaign finance and other criminal activities...
I really don't see any way that the landscape for a refried Trump run is going to get any friendlier over the next 4 years.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Assuming he still has 100% of his "old" fans by 2024, that's not enough as has been demonstrated in 2020,

He got the second highest voter turnout in history for his dumb ass.
If he shuts up for four years and doesn't actively piss people off, nominate judges, anger allies, all the shit that motivated people to vote against him, it'll mean a hugd drop in voter turnout to resist him.
The country's opinions wont change, but if the anger fades, he might well be back when Trumpistas are the ones setting out to vote.

 

[jab]

My fav argument from Trump's crack defense team (defense team on crack?) so far:

"Democrats are only doing this because they are afraid to run against Trump in 2024"

Riiiight. Democrats are afraid to run against the guy who lost the House, lost the Senate, and lost the White House by 8 million votes.
Those lawyers must think Dems fear that Trump made a lot of new friends by attacking democracy, staging a failed coup attempt and getting a bunch of people killed.

Seriously ... it is even possible to dream up a less formidable opponent than a washed up 78 year old fanatic who has failed misterably at every turn?
Deep down, I wish Republicans would dump him and return to what used to be conservative values. But for sheer schadenfreude, it's hard to beat the specter of four years of those spineless fools following Trump over the cliff and into oblivion. Individually, they totally deserve it.
But the Country would be better off with a viable party that could oppose the excesses of Democrats that will inevitably occur if their only obstacle is the Coup Cucks Clan Party (CCCP).

I wouldn't underestimate trump's chances. Even if he's just as unpopular in 4 years, his hardcore base of rabid morons will still be there. The GOP has already started putting up road blocks for the next election. It may be enough.

Trump now lacks the power to disable all safety rails, seed the judiciary with toadies and install co-conspirators in every official capacity that matters. Therefore he will need VOTES to win, and and he isn't making any new fans AFAICS.
Assuming he still has 100% of his "old" fans by 2024, that's not enough as has been demonstrated in 2020, even with all the voter suppression tactics that a Republican White House, Senate, DOJ and SCOTUS could help provide. Now, he has lost all those crucial assets. No Bill Barr to spin his next treasonous act or turn a blind eye to his Tax, Campaign finance and other criminal activities...
I really don't see any way that the landscape for a refried Trump run is going to get any friendlier over the next 4 years.

Republican state legislatures are even as we post making it easier to suppress the vote in swing states.