Impeachment II thread

[Patooka]

You forgot the phenomena of spontaneous conservative amnesia, though, wherein as soon as the latest lightning rod, figurehead, or political whore drops away, the entire party magically starts caring about "fiscal responsibility", and any event referenced from the previous 4 years comes with endless demands for source.

It wasn't amnesia. George W Bush was scrubbed from the timeline between 2008-2012. Everything was Obama's mistake or still Clinton's fault.

 

[TomC]

You forgot the phenomena of spontaneous conservative amnesia, though, wherein as soon as the latest lightning rod, figurehead, or political whore drops away, the entire party magically starts caring about "fiscal responsibility", and any event referenced from the previous 4 years comes with endless demands for source.

It wasn't amnesia. George W Bush was scrubbed from the timeline between 2008-2012. Everything was Obama's mistake or still Clinton's fault.

It was amazing how that happened wasn't it!
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yeah. He was guilty as hell last time around. Yet, the Republicans came in to support him. Why wouldn't it be a do-over this time? The guy is on the way out, is there any incentive for a Republican senator to turn against Trump now? It's not like Trump truly is a danger to Western civilisation. Since Trump is on the way out it can only be a symbolic gesture. What senator wants to have on the resume that they betrayed a fellow party member?

You do realise the Republicans who gave unconditional support to the GOP Presidential nominee in 2008 and 2012 aren't in good standing in the Republican Party anymore, right? Four years from now, Trump politicians will have one motherfucker of an albatross hanging around their necks.

You forgot the phenomena of spontaneous conservative amnesia, though, wherein as soon as the latest lightning rod, figurehead, or political whore drops away, the entire party magically starts caring about "fiscal responsibility", and any event referenced from the previous 4 years comes with endless demands for source.

Yeah, exactly. The public have a tiny memory. They can only hate one person at a time. I doubt anybody will remember who supported Trump in a few years. But within the party I'm sure memories are long. Party politics is all about scratching each others back and showing loyalty. If any Republicans impeach Trump it'll most likely be all of them. That's how politics works. There's a party whip. Whatever the whip says is what all members have to vote for. If they don't they'll be ostracized in every way by the party. That's the sacred vow every party politician makes when joining a party.

 

[Elixir]

I'm surprised nobody else has posted this yet...

RESOLUTION Impeaching Donald John Trump

IMHO it is an excellent document, nearly devoid of adjectives, characterizations or suppositions. It is as close to unarguable as these kinds of documents can get. Short, concise and damning as can be.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Simply put, Biden and the Democrats were stealing the election so Red Hats stormed the Capitol and stole a podium and some mail. They are idiots!

You can’t certify a dadgum election without a podium. Everybody knows that. Ole Adam Johnson thought he executed a coup in one swell foop.

 

[jab]

Reading through the usual right-wing forums I'm seeing them excusing Trump because he did not actually say the words 'go storm the capitol building'. Therefore he cannot have incited violence or insurrection and it all just the usual TDS and extreme left-wing socialist MSN blowing the whole thing out of proportion. This is followed by the usual lukewarm 'condemnation of all violence' and 'Trump says stupid things sometimes', and why didn't the 'leftists' get upset about violence and rioting all summer as it's absolutely the same thing as what happened last week.

Plus the whole idea of the impeachment and the 'silencing of free speech' on social media platforms is a calculated move to anger his supporters more, hoping they will respond with violence so they can shut down innocent conservatives further.

His own lawyer and his son did use overtly violence exhortations at Trump's rally, and he did not disavow them. I am wondering, did Ghouliani and hairy Dump speak before the main event? If so orange Drumph's speech must clearly be seen as building upon theirs.

 

[ZiprHead]

Reading through the usual right-wing forums I'm seeing them excusing Trump because he did not actually say the words 'go storm the capitol building'. Therefore he cannot have incited violence or insurrection and it all just the usual TDS and extreme left-wing socialist MSN blowing the whole thing out of proportion. This is followed by the usual lukewarm 'condemnation of all violence' and 'Trump says stupid things sometimes', and why didn't the 'leftists' get upset about violence and rioting all summer as it's absolutely the same thing as what happened last week.

Plus the whole idea of the impeachment and the 'silencing of free speech' on social media platforms is a calculated move to anger his supporters more, hoping they will respond with violence so they can shut down innocent conservatives further.

His own lawyer and his son did use overtly violence exhortations at Trump's rally, and he did not disavow them. I am wondering, did Ghouliani and hairy Dump speak before the main event? If so orange Drumph's speech must clearly be seen as building upon theirs.

Donald Trump Speech “Save America” Rally Transcript January 6

Plenty of violent rhetoric in his speech too.

 

[blastula]

Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking.

So why is he slow walking it then. He has to say it in public.

 

[laughing dog]

Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking.

So why is he slow walking it then. He has to say it in public.

Assuming the NYT report is accurate, McConnell does not want his fingerprints on the knife - let the Democrats do all the dirty work for him.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Does anyone expect courage and truth from a Republican?

 

[blastula]

Assuming the NYT report is accurate, McConnell does not want his fingerprints on the knife - let the Democrats do all the dirty work for him.

But they're going to need Republican votes in the Senate.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So why is he slow walking it then.

He has spent 12 years showing his absolute power over Congress. This cannot happen this week without his active participation and approval. His mobs will blame him.
In 8 days? Sorry, can't be helped. Gosh, wish you guys hadn't cost us Georgia. Shuck-eeee darn, would love to help, but i only have one vote.

 

[Elixir]

I heard Mitch wanted Trump impeached by the House. No mention of convicting him in the Senate.
Maybe trying to have his cake, eat it too and deny it all. Again. If Mitch doesn’t start scolding Democrats as soon as it’s done, I’ll be flabbergasted.

 

[SLD]

From the articles:

4 ARTICLE I: INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION
5 The Constitution provides that the House of Rep-
6 resentatives ‘‘shall have the sole Power of Impeachment’’
7 and that the President ‘‘shall be removed from Office on
8 Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or
9 other high Crimes and Misdemeanors’’. Further, section
10 3 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits
11 any person who has ‘‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion
12 against’’ the United States from ‘‘hold[ing] any office . . .
13 under the United States’’. In his conduct while President
14 of the United States—and in violation of his constitutional
15 oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the
16 United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, pro-
17 tect, and defend the Constitution of the United States,
18 and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that
19 the laws be faithfully executed—Donald John Trump en-
20 gaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by inciting vio-
21 lence against the Government of the United States, in
22 that:
23 On January 6, 2021, pursuant to the 12th Amend-
24 ment to the Constitution of the United States, the Vice
25 President of the United States, the House of Representa-
26 tives, and the Senate met at the United States Capitol

3
1 for a Joint Session of Congress to count the votes of the
2 Electoral College. In the months preceding the Joint Ses-
3 sion, President Trump repeatedly issued false statements
4 asserting that the Presidential election results were the
5 product of widespread fraud and should not be accepted
6 by the American people or certified by State or Federal
7 officials. Shortly before the Joint Session commenced,
8 President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in
9 Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that
10 ‘‘we won this election, and we won it by a landslide’’. He
11 also willfully made statements that, in context, encour-
12 aged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the
13 Capitol, such as: ‘‘if you don’t fight like hell you’re not
14 going to have a country anymore’’. Thus incited by Presi-
15 dent Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in
16 an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the
17 Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the
18 results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully
19 breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed
20 law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Con-
21 gress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel,
22 and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and sedi-
23 tious acts.
24 President Trump’s conduct on January 6, 2021, fol-
25 lowed his prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certifi-


4
1 cation of the results of the 2020 Presidential election.
2 Those prior efforts included a phone call on January 2,
3 2021, during which President Trump urged the secretary
4 of state of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, to ‘‘find’’ enough
5 votes to overturn the Georgia Presidential election results
6 and threatened Secretary Raffensperger if he failed to do
7 so.
8 In all this, President Trump gravely endangered the
9 security of the United States and its institutions of Gov-
10 ernment. He threatened the integrity of the democratic
11 system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power,
12 and imperiled a coequal branch of Government. He there-
13 by betrayed his trust as President, to the manifest injury
14 of the people of the United States.
15 Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct,
16 has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national
17 security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to re-
18 main in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incom-
19 patible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald
20 John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, re-
21 moval from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy
22 any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United
23 States.

Legally they’re hanging it on one phrase, where Trump told them to fight like hell. Of course the whole speech matters. It is one long diatribe telling them to mount an insurrection. But that is the one phrase where he exhorts them to actual violent actions.

18 USC 373 makes it a crime to solicit, command, induce or “endeavor to persuade” another person to commit a felony that includes the threat or use of physical force. Simply put, it is a crime to persuade another person, or a mob of several thousand, to commit a violent felony.

Donald Trump committed a felony. There is no way around it. Of all the stupid people videoing themselves committing a felony and all the jokes about them going around the internet, Trump is the biggest fool of all. Mo Brooks might be close behind him. I just filed a bar complaint on him.

 

[The Colourful Jester]

From the articles:

Legally they’re hanging it on one phrase, where Trump told them to fight like hell. Of course the whole speech matters. It is one long diatribe telling them to mount an insurrection. But that is the one phrase where he exhorts them to actual violent actions.

18 USC 373 makes it a crime to solicit, command, induce or “endeavor to persuade” another person to commit a felony that includes the threat or use of physical force. Simply put, it is a crime to persuade another person, or a mob of several thousand, to commit a violent felony.

Donald Trump committed a felony. There is no way around it. Of all the stupid people videoing themselves committing a felony and all the jokes about them going around the internet, Trump is the biggest fool of all. Mo Brooks might be close behind him. I just filed a bar complaint on him.

https://youtu.be/XwqAInN9HWI

This guy goes into it. Anyone know if it valid?

 

[SLD]

Liz Cheney announced that she will support impeachment

The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.

At least a few Republicans have a sense of common decency. I fear it won’t be enough, but maybe more will fall in line. McConnell is waking up to the potential loss of donors to the Republican Party all of a sudden and has said that Trump has committed impeachable offenses. Hawley and Cruz are facing a huge backlash from their donors. Money will drive this as it does everything in Congress.

And I think Iptrich is right, the Dems have waited too long. But that’s OK. As long as he’s prosecuted for it afterwards. And there should be no change in venue! A jury in Washington, DC should be just fine. He’s got so many supporters there. Not!

I wonder if he’ll tell Pence he can be President for a few days if he gets a pardon. Pence, choosing his words carefully, responds, and Trump resigns. Then seconds after he is sworn, he turns to Trump and says, “You tried to have me killed the other day, and you think, I’d pardon you? Get the fuck out of my sight, you motherfucker!” Except Pence probably doesn’t talk like I do. But he can’t trust Pence anymore. No way Pence is not harboring a deep grudge right now.

 

[Patooka]

From the articles:

Legally they’re hanging it on one phrase, where Trump told them to fight like hell. Of course the whole speech matters. It is one long diatribe telling them to mount an insurrection. But that is the one phrase where he exhorts them to actual violent actions.

18 USC 373 makes it a crime to solicit, command, induce or “endeavor to persuade” another person to commit a felony that includes the threat or use of physical force. Simply put, it is a crime to persuade another person, or a mob of several thousand, to commit a violent felony.

Donald Trump committed a felony. There is no way around it. Of all the stupid people videoing themselves committing a felony and all the jokes about them going around the internet, Trump is the biggest fool of all. Mo Brooks might be close behind him. I just filed a bar complaint on him.

https://youtu.be/XwqAInN9HWI

This guy goes into it. Anyone know if it valid?

Personally, I think Legal Eagle plays Devil's Advocate to his own biases pretty well. You can tell he is a lawyer because a significant amount of youtube episodes boil down to, "Here is the context of what this person is saying, but in regards to the overall context of what the title of this clip is about, it's difficult to say." Lawyers, by the very nature of their profession, are reluctant to have their opinions set in stone. The competent ones anyway. Some prefer to spread conspiracy theories next to dildo shops.

 

[SLD]

From the articles:

Legally they’re hanging it on one phrase, where Trump told them to fight like hell. Of course the whole speech matters. It is one long diatribe telling them to mount an insurrection. But that is the one phrase where he exhorts them to actual violent actions.

18 USC 373 makes it a crime to solicit, command, induce or “endeavor to persuade” another person to commit a felony that includes the threat or use of physical force. Simply put, it is a crime to persuade another person, or a mob of several thousand, to commit a violent felony.

Donald Trump committed a felony. There is no way around it. Of all the stupid people videoing themselves committing a felony and all the jokes about them going around the internet, Trump is the biggest fool of all. Mo Brooks might be close behind him. I just filed a bar complaint on him.

https://youtu.be/XwqAInN9HWI

This guy goes into it. Anyone know if it valid?

Personally, I think Legal Eagle plays Devil's Advocate to his own biases pretty well. You can tell he is a lawyer because a significant amount of youtube episodes boil down to, "Here is the context of what this person is saying, but in regards to the overall context of what the title of this clip is about, it's difficult to say." Lawyers, by the very nature of their profession, are reluctant to have their opinions set in stone. The competent ones anyway. Some prefer to spread conspiracy theories next to dildo shops.

He's right a lot. 18 U.S.C. 2101 says as follows:

(a)Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent—
(1)to incite a riot; or
(2)to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3)to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4)to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph— [1]
Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

That's the act he is talking about. That's a difficult case to show against Trump, but it's close. Trump said that they should fight. Possibly.

But there's many other statutes that also could be used here.

Seditious Conspiracy is 18 USC 2384 and says:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

He knew what was going to happen and he planned it.

Or 18 USC 2383, Rebellion or Insurrection:

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Here is the statute for advocating the overthrow of the government, 18 USC 2385:

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

But I believe the best choice is 18 USC 373, Solicitation to Commit a Crime of Violence

(a)Whoever, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against property or against the person of another in violation of the laws of the United States, and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent, solicits, commands, induces, or otherwise endeavors to persuade such other person to engage in such conduct, shall be imprisoned not more than one-half the maximum term of imprisonment or (notwithstanding section 3571) fined not more than one-half of the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the crime solicited, or both; or if the crime solicited is punishable by life imprisonment or death, shall be imprisoned for not more than twenty years.

(b)It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this section that, under circumstances manifesting a voluntary and complete renunciation of his criminal intent, the defendant prevented the commission of the crime solicited. A renunciation is not “voluntary and complete” if it is motivated in whole or in part by a decision to postpone the commission of the crime until another time or to substitute another victim or another but similar objective. If the defendant raises the affirmative defense at trial, the defendant has the burden of proving the defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

(c)It is not a defense to a prosecution under this section that the person solicited could not be convicted of the crime because he lacked the state of mind required for its commission, because he was incompetent or irresponsible, or because he is immune from prosecution or is not subject to prosecution.

In other words encouraging them to go forth and commit a violent response when he told them to go forth and fight, he violated this act.

Frankly, I think Mo Brooks is even more guilty of it. He told them explicitly to "kick ass" and take names.

I think his ultimate point is right though that the President was trying to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States and that is undeniably a violation of a crime - even if he didn't intend for the crowd to turn violent, which he did. His subsequent actions show that.

I'd vote to convict!

But I hate the son of a bicth.

 

[jab]

Assuming the NYT report is accurate, McConnell does not want his fingerprints on the knife - let the Democrats do all the dirty work for him.

But they're going to need Republican votes in the Senate.

That's when he may bring the knife out--at the Senate trial. And why he wants the vote after the new senators are sworn in, fewer Repug Senators to convince to tell the truth, and so those who do vote won't be actually unseating a Repug President..

 

[Swammerdami]

Thinking about Trump and his supporters drives me livid with rage. All I want to do is go to thesaurus.com and line up bitter nasty words for a screed!

Fortunately I no longer need to bother! Andrew Mitrovica is doing just fine without my help.

The appeasement of a frothing maniac who encouraged, welcomed and cheered on a rampaging and deadly insurrection against the United States constitution and still, incredibly, remains the sitting president of the US must end – unequivocally.

...
Trump’s resignation is necessary. Failing that, his impeachment is necessary. Indictments are necessary. And the criminally belated exile of Trump from ubiquitous social media platforms, including Twitter, is surely necessary too.

These are the irrefutable facts and anyone who argues otherwise is guilty of the same willful blindness and negligence that Trump and his enablers exploited with alacrity to foment and orchestrate the mad insurrection on Capitol Hill.

Critics of Trump’s expulsion from Twitter must not be permitted to evade this sordid history, nor must they be permitted to suggest – unchallenged – that his banning will only inflame his fanatical followers and fuel their incoherent fury and defining sense of grievance.

Trump is the eager, unrepentant architect of that festering fanaticism and rage. Twitter was the convenient and agreeable vehicle – given it does not require any knowledge or literacy – for an imbecilic president to sow, with grinding, debilitating frequency, his manifest cruelty, misogyny, bigotry, hatred and discord.