In light of all the brouhaha about Kavenaugh, why no attention toward the Keith Ellison accusations?

[Toni]

I'm really not sure how one can separate out Roy Moore's 'scamming' as you call it but let's be honest: sexual assault of high school aged girls from other terrible behavior.

I don't separate it out, but the rulings he made from the bench caused a hell of a lot more damage over a much longer period of time and it would be nice if people thought that defrauding people and abusing his position to enrich himself was the type of thing they should be against. They weren't, however, so he got far enough along in the process for the sexual assault allegations to even surface. In a non-crazy place, he should have been gone due to the actions he took in his professional life long before he became prominent enough for people to start looking into his personal life. That didn't happen, though.

Same with Kavanagh. What he's done on the job should be what disqualifies him. It doesn't, however, so decades old allegations of what he did as a teenager are what will do it ... hopefully.

I don't think you can really say that his rulings were worse or caused more damage than sexually assaulting multiple teenage girls over a large period of time. He was not just an adult at the time, but a well established adult in his mid to late 30s.

In small towns, a lot of times people 'know' the creeps and think they can keep their loved ones safe because they 'know' the creep. Of course there are always creeps that people don't know are creeps, people with important positions and enough of a veneer of importance and morality to keep their creepy behavior secret. Moore carefully chose girls whose families would not be in much of a position to object. It's part of the same pattern of behavior as what he did as a judge. Sex sells.

With Kavanaugh, it's unlikely that the incident that is now famous was a one time thing. And again, it's simply part of a pattern of behavior and mindset that should disqualify him.

Like you, I didn't need any allegations to oppose Moore or Kavanaugh.

 

[ZiprHead]

I as I understand it, KE's ex is a nutcase and has been harassing him for years. She claimed to have a video of him dragging her off of a bed. When asked to produce the video, she said she couldn't find it. When he took up with another woman after he broke with nutty ex GF, she started harassing the new woman. Hell, even his ex wife vouched for him, saying he would never abuse a woman.

Aren't all female exes nutcases? I can scarcely think of one that hasn't been referred to that way.

And let's be clear: it was Karen Monahan's adult son who made the first allegation and who claimed to have video.

And there's this:

http://www.startribune.com/ellison-ex-girlfriend-posts-medical-record-alleging-abuse/493785421/

That's the same link as the one above. Nothing in that medical report that's derogatory of KE came from the medical personnel. It's all her words being repeated on paper.

It's her claim that her son made the first allegation.

Her excuse that she can't let people see the video because of her state of undress is bogus also. It doesn't need to be released publically. She can allow a neutral third party view the tape and describe what that person sees.

Also, it seems quite apparent that KE's ex wife isn't considered a nut case.

Minnesota Public Radio reported Sunday that a review of more than 100 text and Twitter exchanges between Ellison and Monahan revealed sometimes friendly and at other times more combative relationship as they spoke about the terms of their breakup and the emotional pain he had caused her.

“There is no evidence in the messages reviewed by MPR News of the alleged physical abuse,” MPR reported.

 

[Jarhyn]

Sexual assault is shitty, but ultimately it destroys one life, maybe two. If someone was a serial-rapist-murderer with 30 victims over 10 years, that quite bad indeed.

But if someone is a partisan judge who overturns Roe v Wade, pretends that the child separation policy of the administration is constitutional, or is bribable by foreign interests, that isn't just 30 lives. That's tens of thousands of dead women, (possibly sexually) enslaved children, and making an entire country vulnerable to foreign attack.

So no, honestly I would rather a serial-rapist murderer who won't do those things even over a non-rapist who would do those things. And so should you, Toni.

 

[Toni]

I as I understand it, KE's ex is a nutcase and has been harassing him for years. She claimed to have a video of him dragging her off of a bed. When asked to produce the video, she said she couldn't find it. When he took up with another woman after he broke with nutty ex GF, she started harassing the new woman. Hell, even his ex wife vouched for him, saying he would never abuse a woman.

Aren't all female exes nutcases? I can scarcely think of one that hasn't been referred to that way.

And let's be clear: it was Karen Monahan's adult son who made the first allegation and who claimed to have video.

And there's this:

http://www.startribune.com/ellison-ex-girlfriend-posts-medical-record-alleging-abuse/493785421/

That's the same link as the one above. Nothing in that medical report that's derogatory of KE came from the medical personnel. It's all her words being repeated on paper.

It's her claim that her son made the first allegation.

Her excuse that she can't let people see the video because of her state of undress is bogus also. It doesn't need to be released publically. She can allow a neutral third party view the tape and describe what that person sees.

Also, it seems quite apparent that KE's ex wife isn't considered a nut case.

Minnesota Public Radio reported Sunday that a review of more than 100 text and Twitter exchanges between Ellison and Monahan revealed sometimes friendly and at other times more combative relationship as they spoke about the terms of their breakup and the emotional pain he had caused her.

“There is no evidence in the messages reviewed by MPR News of the alleged physical abuse,” MPR reported.

You are not very well informed about the allegations against Ellison. Monahan's adult son broke the story on Facebook on August 11. My computer is only limping along so I haven't been able to do a screen shot. But here is the c&p of his post:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/13/17684222/keith-ellison-karen-monahan-minnesota-attorney-general-race

Austin Aslim Monahan
August 11 ·
Please read, if you care about my mother please share.
I love you momma, you wont have to stand alone
#ibelieveher
#wearemanenough
#timesup
Keith Ellison Keith Ellison for Attorney General Jason Sole Shvonne L Johnson Will Moore @Shiranthi Goonathilaka Stephen Davis Kiree Jamar Robinson Kendra Weiland Deanna Casablanca Valentine F Ndi Justin Monahan StarTribune.com Pioneer Press Lindsey Port Erin Maye Quade Debra Hilstrom Matt Pelikan Hosie Thurmond III

My name is Austin Monahan and I am writing this letter on behalf of me and my brother.
My brother and I watched our mom come out of pure hell after getting out of her relationship with Keith Ellison. For several months we knew something wasn’t right and couldn’t figure it out. When we asked our mom if everything was ok, she told us she was dealing with some stress and would be ok.
In the middle of 2017, I was using my moms computer trying to download something and I clicked on a file, I found over 100 text and twitters messages and video almost 2 min long that showed Keith Ellison dragging my mama off the bed by her feet, screaming and calling her a “fucking bitch” and telling her to get the fuck out of his house. The messages I found, were mixed with him consistently telling my mom he wanted her back, he missed her, he knew he fucked up and we wished he could do things different, he would victim shaming, bully her, and threaten her if she went public. I text him and told him I know what you did to my mama and a few other things.
I met up with my mom that night and asked her what happened. She said nothing happened until I told her I saw a video and hell of a lot of messages saying something different. She finally talked. My brother and I were so angry and hurt for our mom. We were ready to go public but our mom begged us not to and she along with others convinced us it wasn’t in our moms best interest.

I saw message after message through out all that time, where my mom was telling him she wasn’t going back to him but still saw his humanity and offered restorative justice. I honestly don’t see how she would offer him that, but thats her choice.

Sitting all this time, watching what our mom went through and not being able to say or do anything was hard as hell. None of you know the hell our family has gone through. I don’t think half of you would even care. We watched her so called political friends stand by say or do nothing. People had an idea what happened and never reached out to my mom. The same people who are posting about social justice are ready to smear my mom, protect a person who abused her and broke the law. You think we give a shit about a politics when we saw what our mom went through? She may not matter to none of you, but she is our mom, our kids grandmother and she is actually someone. There is a lot more he has done to my mom and others that we saw in the text but our mom can decide if and when she wants to tell the world that part.

Whether we saw the video or read all those messages, we still would have believed her if she had told us. #Ibelieveher

My mom has always tried to protect me and my brother. She doesn’t have to protect us anymore and we aren’t letting her stand alone. When we found out our mom was planning on sharing her story, that is all we needed to hear for us to share ours and stand with our mom. You want to smear someone, try to lie about a person who didn’t do shit to deserve the ongoing emotional, physical abuse, smear me and my brother.

I use to believe the Democrats were the ones who would stand by a person who went through this kind of abuse, now I know both Democrats and Republicans could care less when it comes to violence toward women and girls.

I have learned a lot about how patriarchy has shaped me as a 25 year old through all this. I just became a father and I am working on how patriarchy influenced thoughts ad decisions I have made as a young man so I can teach my son better. I am starting today by standing with my mom, my sons grandma. It is not just on women and girls to speak out, it is on men to do some of the emotional work. I’m not here to prove shit to anyone, I’m just stating facts. You can take it or leave it.
#Iammanenough

Mom, I am sure you are getting contacted about this post. Just know we love you and we are standing by you.

Austin Monahan
#Ibelieveher #wearemanenough #Timesup

Karen Monahan is not the only person who alleges domestic abuse at the hands of Ellison:

https://www.scribd.com/document/386...60149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate


As far as there being other exes who are not claiming domestic abuse: I guess that's your personal criteria for not crazy. The ones who don't claim abuse. Sounds about par for what I know about a lot of broken relationships.

 

[Elixir]

Well, Ellison denies it and I heard that this lady once gave $35 to a Republican campaign, so she's clearly a partisan rightwing hack who's making this shit up for political purposes.

Now, obviously I'm not saying that I disbelieve this lying bitch and she certainly deserves the opportunity to present her information about the good and honourable Congressman, so she should be able to present her case to a panel of State Democrats who'll assess whether or not their trusted colleague and friend is guilty of what this partisan hack is unfairly accusing him of. She'll really need to do that by next Monday, though, or retract her statements and let the election go on without her unwarranted mudslinging.

Pwnage level: Expert

 

[Toni]

One major difference is that the electorate has a choice with Keith Ellison and does not with Kavanaugh. As of 2 days ago, Ellison had a 5 percentage point lead in the polls over his Republican oppponent with 18% of the respondents still undecided (http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-keith-ellison-leads-doug-wardlow-most-not-sure-about-abuse-allegation/493500621/). Meanwhile, the Republican Senate is steamrolling ahead with the Kavanaugh confirmation process.

Oh, I don't disagree with your post at all. But Derec does have a point: Democrats are (now) stumbling all over themselves to support Ellison and to decry Monahan as a crazy spurned ex with a heart full of vengeance. I'm not sure why: they were quick enough to drum Al Franken out of the Senate over demonstrably false and/or misrepresented claims of 'harassment.' I keep waiting and have not heard or read a single thing regarding his treatment of woemn that should have disqualified Franken. And yeah, I was quite familiar with his work as a comedian, actor and writer. And yeah, I was less than thrilled that he was elected senator but in fact, he convinced me that he is vastly different than the characters he portrayed or the comedy he wrote. Maybe it is because Ellison is black and Muslim and there aren't that many of either of those in Minnesota and people in Minnesota like to think they are too nice to be racist yet they have an abominable record on test scores and racial inequality. But they are pretty welcoming to immigrant blacks. Not nearly as nasty as they were 20-30 years ago re: Hmong immigrants. Unfortunately, still pretty nasty towards blacks born in the USA with American grandparents....................

Derec is correct to point out that either party--all parties---are quick enough to overlook the flaws and foibles of their chosen candidates as long as the candidate promises to do enough that the party thinks it wants, thinks its supporters want.

That is the same shit that got Trump elected. A whole lot of people willing to hold their noses and vote for Trump because they are afraid of immigrants and change and because they have suffered great economic harm and because they noted that they have been placed into a basket full of deplorables by high and mighty Democrats.

We have got to quit giving candidates a pass on terrible behavior because they come in an otherwise pretty nifty package. Because we think that despite their considerable flaws and terrible personal behavior, they can deliver what we think we want.

 

[Elixir]

One major difference is that the electorate has a choice with Keith Ellison and does not with Kavanaugh. As of 2 days ago, Ellison had a 5 percentage point lead in the polls over his Republican oppponent with 18% of the respondents still undecided (http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-keith-ellison-leads-doug-wardlow-most-not-sure-about-abuse-allegation/493500621/). Meanwhile, the Republican Senate is steamrolling ahead with the Kavanaugh confirmation process.

Oh, I don't disagree with your post at all. But Derec does have a point: Democrats are (now) stumbling all over themselves to support Ellison and to decry Monahan as a crazy spurned ex with a heart full of vengeance. I'm not sure why: they were quick enough to drum Al Franken out of the Senate over demonstrably false and/or misrepresented claims of 'harassment.' I keep waiting and have not heard or read a single thing regarding his treatment of woemn that should have disqualified Franken. And yeah, I was quite familiar with his work as a comedian, actor and writer. And yeah, I was less than thrilled that he was elected senator but in fact, he convinced me that he is vastly different than the characters he portrayed or the comedy he wrote. Maybe it is because Ellison is black and Muslim and there aren't that many of either of those in Minnesota and people in Minnesota like to think they are too nice to be racist yet they have an abominable record on test scores and racial inequality. But they are pretty welcoming to immigrant blacks. Not nearly as nasty as they were 20-30 years ago re: Hmong immigrants. Unfortunately, still pretty nasty towards blacks born in the USA with American grandparents....................

Derec is correct to point out that either party--all parties---are quick enough to overlook the flaws and foibles of their chosen candidates as long as the candidate promises to do enough that the party thinks it wants, thinks its supporters want.

That is the same shit that got Trump elected. A whole lot of people willing to hold their noses and vote for Trump because they are afraid of immigrants and change and because they have suffered great economic harm and because they noted that they have been placed into a basket full of deplorables by high and mighty Democrats.

We have got to quit giving candidates a pass on terrible behavior because they come in an otherwise pretty nifty package. Because we think that despite their considerable flaws and terrible personal behavior, they can deliver what we think we want.

There IS the fact that Ellison is going for a State position while Kavanaugh is trying to get a(nother) lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land. Is it wrong to think there should be a higher bar for that? And I do think Laughing Dog has a good point - where the electorate has a choice, they can make their bed and lie in it.

 

[Toni]

One major difference is that the electorate has a choice with Keith Ellison and does not with Kavanaugh. As of 2 days ago, Ellison had a 5 percentage point lead in the polls over his Republican oppponent with 18% of the respondents still undecided (http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-keith-ellison-leads-doug-wardlow-most-not-sure-about-abuse-allegation/493500621/). Meanwhile, the Republican Senate is steamrolling ahead with the Kavanaugh confirmation process.

Oh, I don't disagree with your post at all. But Derec does have a point: Democrats are (now) stumbling all over themselves to support Ellison and to decry Monahan as a crazy spurned ex with a heart full of vengeance. I'm not sure why: they were quick enough to drum Al Franken out of the Senate over demonstrably false and/or misrepresented claims of 'harassment.' I keep waiting and have not heard or read a single thing regarding his treatment of woemn that should have disqualified Franken. And yeah, I was quite familiar with his work as a comedian, actor and writer. And yeah, I was less than thrilled that he was elected senator but in fact, he convinced me that he is vastly different than the characters he portrayed or the comedy he wrote. Maybe it is because Ellison is black and Muslim and there aren't that many of either of those in Minnesota and people in Minnesota like to think they are too nice to be racist yet they have an abominable record on test scores and racial inequality. But they are pretty welcoming to immigrant blacks. Not nearly as nasty as they were 20-30 years ago re: Hmong immigrants. Unfortunately, still pretty nasty towards blacks born in the USA with American grandparents....................

Derec is correct to point out that either party--all parties---are quick enough to overlook the flaws and foibles of their chosen candidates as long as the candidate promises to do enough that the party thinks it wants, thinks its supporters want.

That is the same shit that got Trump elected. A whole lot of people willing to hold their noses and vote for Trump because they are afraid of immigrants and change and because they have suffered great economic harm and because they noted that they have been placed into a basket full of deplorables by high and mighty Democrats.

We have got to quit giving candidates a pass on terrible behavior because they come in an otherwise pretty nifty package. Because we think that despite their considerable flaws and terrible personal behavior, they can deliver what we think we want.

There IS the fact that Ellison is going for a State position while Kavanaugh is trying to get a(nother) lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land. Is it wrong to think there should be a higher bar for that? And I do think Laughing Dog has a good point - where the electorate has a choice, they can make their bed and lie in it.

As I wrote, I agree with ld's post. The electorate has its choice re: Ellison --although looking at the choice, it's a pretty terrible one. Kavanaugh is out of people's direct hands. And Kavanah stands to make a longer lasting mark on the US than Ellison, who will not likely advance beyond Minnesota politics (at least, I hope not.)

But in what is a pretty rare moment for me, I also think that Derec has a point: Democrats really are falling all over themselves to support Ellison, despite some credible allegations from multiple women that he has engaged in some level of domestic abuse. Just as Republicans have fallen all over themselves supporting some pretty reprehensible behavior by Republican candidates.

Plenty of people heard Donald Trump's words on that video, as well as read a lot of quotes, listened to a lot of pretty misogynist, pretty racist language--and gave him a pass as well. Some because they just thought it was a 'boys will be boys' kind of thing and either agreed, in their heart of hearts, with the racism and misogyny or didn't really think it was as important as their own personal political goals and pocketbooks--so they are just racists in their secret hearts and probably have plenty of black friends--at least 3! that they will be glad to tell you all about. And all of their wives have been women!

 

[Copernicus]

Another point to make about Derec's Whataboutery argument--Ellison is running for a local office. Kavanaugh is seeking not just a lifetime appointment, but an extremely powerful national office--one of the select nine that decide the meaning of our laws. So there is obviously going to be far more attention paid to Kavanaugh's alleged misbehavior than Ellison's.

 

[Toni]

Another point to make about Derec's Whataboutery argument--Ellison is running for a local office. Kavanaugh is seeking not just a lifetime appointment, but an extremely powerful national office--one of the select nine that decide the meaning of our laws. So there is obviously going to be far more attention paid to Kavanaugh's alleged misbehavior than Ellison's.

Sure. Maybe we should compare Keith Ellison to Roy Moore, then? Ellison is running for a state offnice, not a local one. Accusations against Moore were from further in the past but are more serious as they involved minors and credible accusations of sexual assault. Ellison’s alleged offenses involved adult women with whom he had an intimate relationship.


Quite a few of us—me,included, were quite happy to believe Moore’s accusers. A lot of us are struggling with accusations against Ellison. I’m not but I have never been a fan of Ellison. Not sure why—he just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[ZiprHead]

That's the same link as the one above. Nothing in that medical report that's derogatory of KE came from the medical personnel. It's all her words being repeated on paper.

It's her claim that her son made the first allegation.

Her excuse that she can't let people see the video because of her state of undress is bogus also. It doesn't need to be released publically. She can allow a neutral third party view the tape and describe what that person sees.

Also, it seems quite apparent that KE's ex wife isn't considered a nut case.

Minnesota Public Radio reported Sunday that a review of more than 100 text and Twitter exchanges between Ellison and Monahan revealed sometimes friendly and at other times more combative relationship as they spoke about the terms of their breakup and the emotional pain he had caused her.

“There is no evidence in the messages reviewed by MPR News of the alleged physical abuse,” MPR reported.

You are not very well informed about the allegations against Ellison. Monahan's adult son broke the story on Facebook on August 11. My computer is only limping along so I haven't been able to do a screen shot. But here is the c&p of his post:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/13/17684222/keith-ellison-karen-monahan-minnesota-attorney-general-race

Austin Aslim Monahan
August 11 ·
Please read, if you care about my mother please share.
I love you momma, you wont have to stand alone
#ibelieveher
#wearemanenough
#timesup
Keith Ellison Keith Ellison for Attorney General Jason Sole Shvonne L Johnson Will Moore @Shiranthi Goonathilaka Stephen Davis Kiree Jamar Robinson Kendra Weiland Deanna Casablanca Valentine F Ndi Justin Monahan StarTribune.com Pioneer Press Lindsey Port Erin Maye Quade Debra Hilstrom Matt Pelikan Hosie Thurmond III

My name is Austin Monahan and I am writing this letter on behalf of me and my brother.
My brother and I watched our mom come out of pure hell after getting out of her relationship with Keith Ellison. For several months we knew something wasn’t right and couldn’t figure it out. When we asked our mom if everything was ok, she told us she was dealing with some stress and would be ok.
In the middle of 2017, I was using my moms computer trying to download something and I clicked on a file, I found over 100 text and twitters messages and video almost 2 min long that showed Keith Ellison dragging my mama off the bed by her feet, screaming and calling her a “fucking bitch” and telling her to get the fuck out of his house. The messages I found, were mixed with him consistently telling my mom he wanted her back, he missed her, he knew he fucked up and we wished he could do things different, he would victim shaming, bully her, and threaten her if she went public. I text him and told him I know what you did to my mama and a few other things.
I met up with my mom that night and asked her what happened. She said nothing happened until I told her I saw a video and hell of a lot of messages saying something different. She finally talked. My brother and I were so angry and hurt for our mom. We were ready to go public but our mom begged us not to and she along with others convinced us it wasn’t in our moms best interest.

I saw message after message through out all that time, where my mom was telling him she wasn’t going back to him but still saw his humanity and offered restorative justice. I honestly don’t see how she would offer him that, but thats her choice.

Sitting all this time, watching what our mom went through and not being able to say or do anything was hard as hell. None of you know the hell our family has gone through. I don’t think half of you would even care. We watched her so called political friends stand by say or do nothing. People had an idea what happened and never reached out to my mom. The same people who are posting about social justice are ready to smear my mom, protect a person who abused her and broke the law. You think we give a shit about a politics when we saw what our mom went through? She may not matter to none of you, but she is our mom, our kids grandmother and she is actually someone. There is a lot more he has done to my mom and others that we saw in the text but our mom can decide if and when she wants to tell the world that part.

Whether we saw the video or read all those messages, we still would have believed her if she had told us. #Ibelieveher

My mom has always tried to protect me and my brother. She doesn’t have to protect us anymore and we aren’t letting her stand alone. When we found out our mom was planning on sharing her story, that is all we needed to hear for us to share ours and stand with our mom. You want to smear someone, try to lie about a person who didn’t do shit to deserve the ongoing emotional, physical abuse, smear me and my brother.

I use to believe the Democrats were the ones who would stand by a person who went through this kind of abuse, now I know both Democrats and Republicans could care less when it comes to violence toward women and girls.

I have learned a lot about how patriarchy has shaped me as a 25 year old through all this. I just became a father and I am working on how patriarchy influenced thoughts ad decisions I have made as a young man so I can teach my son better. I am starting today by standing with my mom, my sons grandma. It is not just on women and girls to speak out, it is on men to do some of the emotional work. I’m not here to prove shit to anyone, I’m just stating facts. You can take it or leave it.
#Iammanenough

Mom, I am sure you are getting contacted about this post. Just know we love you and we are standing by you.

Austin Monahan
#Ibelieveher #wearemanenough #Timesup

Karen Monahan is not the only person who alleges domestic abuse at the hands of Ellison:

https://www.scribd.com/document/386...60149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate


As far as there being other exes who are not claiming domestic abuse: I guess that's your personal criteria for not crazy. The ones who don't claim abuse. Sounds about par for what I know about a lot of broken relationships.

They have a video. Show it to a reporter. If it shows what they say it does, I'll wholeheartedly take your side.

I also note the KE got a restraining order from the lady in the Republican news blog. She tried to get a harassment order against him and failed. Two differant judges sided with KE in two different cases brought between the two. We are only hearing one side of the issue but two judges heard both sides and both sided with Ellison.

Until I see something more concrete I'll side with Keith.

 

[Toni]

You are not very well informed about the allegations against Ellison. Monahan's adult son broke the story on Facebook on August 11. My computer is only limping along so I haven't been able to do a screen shot. But here is the c&p of his post:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/13/17684222/keith-ellison-karen-monahan-minnesota-attorney-general-race



Karen Monahan is not the only person who alleges domestic abuse at the hands of Ellison:

https://www.scribd.com/document/386...60149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate


As far as there being other exes who are not claiming domestic abuse: I guess that's your personal criteria for not crazy. The ones who don't claim abuse. Sounds about par for what I know about a lot of broken relationships.

They have a video. Show it to a reporter. If it shows what they say it does, I'll wholeheartedly take your side.

I also note the KE got a restraining order from the lady in the Republican news blog. She tried to get a harassment order against him and failed. Two differant judges sided with KE in two different cases brought between the two. We are only hearing one side of the issue but two judges heard both sides and both sided with Ellison.

Until I see something more concrete I'll side with Keith.

Roy Moore was a judge. Kavanaugh is a judge. Do you trust their judgement in such situations? Do you think they are all that unusual?

BTW, Anderson took out a restraining order against Ellison’s lawyer—for harassment. She is a pretty well known journalist for major media as well as a well- published author.

These women are not stupid bombers but are well educated professionals.

Why is it that you believe Kavanaugh’s accusers but not Ellison’s?

 

[ZiprHead]

You are not very well informed about the allegations against Ellison. Monahan's adult son broke the story on Facebook on August 11. My computer is only limping along so I haven't been able to do a screen shot. But here is the c&p of his post:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/13/17684222/keith-ellison-karen-monahan-minnesota-attorney-general-race



Karen Monahan is not the only person who alleges domestic abuse at the hands of Ellison:

https://www.scribd.com/document/386...60149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate


As far as there being other exes who are not claiming domestic abuse: I guess that's your personal criteria for not crazy. The ones who don't claim abuse. Sounds about par for what I know about a lot of broken relationships.

They have a video. Show it to a reporter. If it shows what they say it does, I'll wholeheartedly take your side.

I also note the KE got a restraining order from the lady in the Republican news blog. She tried to get a harassment order against him and failed. Two differant judges sided with KE in two different cases brought between the two. We are only hearing one side of the issue but two judges heard both sides and both sided with Ellison.

Until I see something more concrete I'll side with Keith.

Roy Moore was a judge. Kavanaugh is a judge. Do you trust their judgement in such situations? Do you think they are all that unusual?

BTW, Anderson took out a restraining order against Ellison’s lawyer—for harassment. She is a pretty well known journalist for major media as well as a well- published author.

These women are not stupid bombers but are well educated professionals.

Why is it that you believe Kavanaugh’s accusers but not Ellison’s?

I don't believe I've ever said I believe Kavanaugh's accusers if you mean the woman who claimed he attempted to rape her. The thing I believe about Kavanaugh is that he perjured himself numerous times concerning the stolen Democratic emails because that's clear in black and white.

 

[Ford]

Maybe we should compare Keith Ellison to Roy Moore, then?

I've got a crazy idea...why compare any of them?

The fact that Ellison (or Franken, or even Bill Clinton for that matter) may be guilty of being an asshole towards women has no bearing whatsoever on Kavanaugh's case. If everything the former is accused of turns out to be true, it does not in any way exonerate the latter. It is entirely possible that both men are guilty or both are innocent or one or the other are guilty.

If this accusation against Kavanaugh were a court case, the "your honor, my client is innocent because this other guy in another state allegedly was an asshole" defense wouldn't work.

Both accusations should be taken on their own individual merits.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

My brain is full. Do I need to know about Ellison now, too?

 

[Toni]

Maybe we should compare Keith Ellison to Roy Moore, then?

I've got a crazy idea...why compare any of them?

The fact that Ellison (or Franken, or even Bill Clinton for that matter) may be guilty of being an asshole towards women has no bearing whatsoever on Kavanaugh's case. If everything the former is accused of turns out to be true, it does not in any way exonerate the latter. It is entirely possible that both men are guilty or both are innocent or one or the other are guilty.

If this accusation against Kavanaugh were a court case, the "your honor, my client is innocent because this other guy in another state allegedly was an asshole" defense wouldn't work.

Both accusations should be taken on their own individual merits.

There are going to be no criminal trials.

What I am asking is why some people are siding with Ellison and against Kavanaugh or Roy Moore for that matter—only with regards to the allegations of sexual abuse or domestic violence being leveled against the men.

I’ll flat out say that at first I thought the (initial) allegations against Bill Cosby were maybe not true. For a short time I really gave him the benefit of a doubt -but only for a short time, until I read more and there were more and more women coming forward. I grew up listening to Bill Cosby records! I loved him! And I was not at all happy with the very vague allegations against Garrison Keillor—until I learned more specific information. I liked and admired the work of both men. I believed their public personas were accurate representations of the men. I was misled by my admiration.

I am concerned that we, as a nation, are too ready to dismiss allegations—or believe allegations against powerful people based on how well we like the person or how useful we believe they will be, how well they will support and further an agenda. That is, of course why Harvey Weinstein got by with such despicable acts for so long: he made enough money for the right people.

Bill Clinton seems to have engaged in some pretty despicable behavior—not just cheating on his wife. But he was charming and powerful—and he got a lot of benefits of many doubts. Trump is less charming and certainly has openly admitted to some pretty despicable behavior—but (some)people a perfectly willing to disbelieve or overlook because they believe he can be useful to further their agendas.

All I am suggesting is that perhaps we should examine exactly why we believe some accusers and why we don’t believe others. And that bad behavior needs to be called out at every stage. Would Harvey Weinstein still been able to have a wonderful career if he had been called out and stopped early on? Why not? And so many people would not have faced such abuse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One major difference is that the electorate has a choice with Keith Ellison and does not with Kavanaugh. As of 2 days ago, Ellison had a 5 percentage point lead in the polls over his Republican oppponent with 18% of the respondents still undecided (http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-keith-ellison-leads-doug-wardlow-most-not-sure-about-abuse-allegation/493500621/). Meanwhile, the Republican Senate is steamrolling ahead with the Kavanaugh confirmation process.

Yup. Big difference.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, it is unbelievable that people are trying to excuse the behavior, assume the account is true.

A teenage boy drunkenly trying to kiss a girl (and stopping when she tells him to stop) could be called a drunken indiscretion. A pair of boys pushing a girl into a room, forcibly trying to remove her clothes despite her resistance, and even covering her mouth when she starts to scream is plain attempted rape, and shows a fundamental depravity in the heart of that boy.

Let me put it this way, I could trust the first boy, especially as an adult. The second would be impossible to ever really trust.

I've got to say, I give credit to Ben Shapiro for at least admitting that this behavior would be immediately disqualifying if it happened as alleged. Dennis Prager, in his defense of this behavior, shows how morally bankrupt he is as a human being.

Agreed. Drunks will sometimes go a little over the line on consent. It's not a good thing but it doesn't make them horrible people. However, going way over the line is quite another matter, even a drunk should know better.

 

[Toni]

Yes, it is unbelievable that people are trying to excuse the behavior, assume the account is true.

A teenage boy drunkenly trying to kiss a girl (and stopping when she tells him to stop) could be called a drunken indiscretion. A pair of boys pushing a girl into a room, forcibly trying to remove her clothes despite her resistance, and even covering her mouth when she starts to scream is plain attempted rape, and shows a fundamental depravity in the heart of that boy.

Let me put it this way, I could trust the first boy, especially as an adult. The second would be impossible to ever really trust.

I've got to say, I give credit to Ben Shapiro for at least admitting that this behavior would be immediately disqualifying if it happened as alleged. Dennis Prager, in his defense of this behavior, shows how morally bankrupt he is as a human being.

Agreed. Drunks will sometimes go a little over the line on consent. It's not a good thing but it doesn't make them horrible people. However, going way over the line is quite another matter, even a drunk should know better.

But here's the thing, Loren: How much difference do you think the level of inebriation makes to the victim? Or doesn't that matter? And whose line is it, anyway?

- - - Updated - - -

One major difference is that the electorate has a choice with Keith Ellison and does not with Kavanaugh. As of 2 days ago, Ellison had a 5 percentage point lead in the polls over his Republican oppponent with 18% of the respondents still undecided (http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-keith-ellison-leads-doug-wardlow-most-not-sure-about-abuse-allegation/493500621/). Meanwhile, the Republican Senate is steamrolling ahead with the Kavanaugh confirmation process.

Yup. Big difference.

Oh, I definitely see this as further indictment of the Republican Party. They passed reprehensible months ago.

 

[untermensche]

The last resort when you find out you are backing a bad horse that is in the spotlight now.

Some of those other horses way over there in the distance are bad too.