Irish Abortion Vote: Landslide vote to end abortion restriction

[steve_bank]

There is nothing in scripture that prtrcluydes abortion.

Back in the 60s the pope banned all birth control including condoms as against god's design and plan. It interfered with nature.

You could plan sex for times of low fertility, AKA the rhythm method.

A blast from the 60s past. The4 Pill Is A No No. I doubt most Catholics obeyed the rule.

 

[bilby]

God is involved every time a new human life is created.
Not rape.
Not adultery.
Move on. Nothing to see here.

In other words, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

She was married. Either God raped her (at which point God should be killed) or God committed adultery with her (at which point both God and her should be killed.)

Or there was nothing unusual about God's involvement, in which case Jesus is just another nobody, interchangeable in every way with any other person in the history of the world.

Which appears to be Lion's position (albeit one he obviously didn't think through very well).

 

[Lion IRC]

God is involved every time a new human life is created.
Not rape.
Not adultery.
Move on. Nothing to see here.

Prove it.

Please don't tell me you're making a rape accusation against someone you don't believe exists.
Where's your intellectual integrity?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

God is involved every time a new human life is created.
Not rape.
Not adultery.
Move on. Nothing to see here.

Prove it.

Please don't tell me you're making a rape accusation against someone you don't believe exists.
Where's your intellectual integrity?

That's a nonsense statement. One can talk about the crimes of fictional characters without believing in the actual existence of those characters. For instance, if I say that Hannibal Lecter murders and eats people, the response of "Please don't tell me that you're making an accusation of being a serial killer against someone you don't believe exists. Where's your intellectual integrity?" would be fairly inane.

 

[Patooka]

God is involved every time a new human life is created.
Not rape.
Not adultery.
Move on. Nothing to see here.

Prove it.

Please don't tell me you're making a rape accusation against someone you don't believe exists.
Where's your intellectual integrity?

You're right, it is pretty silly. Let's make it simple. You don't like abortion? Don't have one then. Problem solved.

Unless, of course, you might be so insecure about your faith that the only way you can silence those niggling voices of doubt in your head is to adopt a false sense of moral superiority over everyone else. In that case, go nuts with your mental gymnastics.

 

[ruby sparks]

The added beauty of this decision is that Northern Ireland is made to look like the bible-thumping backwater we all know it is.

There is some truth in this.

However, it is worth noting that The Stupid Party (the DUP) have only managed to prevent the law being changed by exercising a minority veto in the local parliament that was built into the political set-up here to encourage cross-party/cross-community politics in the wake of the Peace Process. It is called a 'Petition of Concern'. All indications are that there is a majority in favour of legalising abortion in both the general population and the local government.

 

[ZiprHead]

God is involved every time a new human life is created.
Not rape.
Not adultery.
Move on. Nothing to see here.

Prove it.

Please don't tell me you're making a rape accusation against someone you don't believe exists.
Where's your intellectual integrity?

Prove the part not struck out.

 

[Playball40]

Wow, this vote is shocking:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...exit-polls/ar-AAxOk0G?ocid=spartanntp&ffid=gz

While not official yet, it appears that it will be a landslide vote to open the country the abortion rights. It's interesting to me that conservative Ireland is going one way, the US the other. It's not surprising to me that older white Americans are voting republican. But the fact that a majority of older white women are voting right wing is a shocker. These are women who burned bras, fought for women's rights, and then fought for abortion rights. What is it that is making them turn as they get older?

I don't think these are the same women. I think they are the women that have and always will find their 'worth' in their men/relationships. They like to shoot down strong and independent women (including those that burned bras) and now have the platform to do it. Many of these women did not experience what it was like before Roe v Wade and therefore take it for granted. They also, like men, see this as a way to 'put free and independent women' in their place.

 

[Playball40]

I'm not following you. You are denying that many white women who fought for women's rights in the 1960's have turned conservative? You deny that some people turn conservative as they age?

No. I'm saying the hippies and feminists back then are still hippies and feminists. And there were plenty of right wing authoritarian women back then, too, that still are. Some people do "turn," sure, but it's bizarre that you think the hippie and feminist women of that time are not still here and as hippie and feminist as ever.

Well, I'll admit that I may be wrong. I've looked at several links describing voting pattern's of white women in the 70's, 80's and 90's vs voting patterns today. It's been my hypothesis that people tend to become more conservative as they age (I had thought to blame Fox News for this as well). But after looking at the evidence, I've decided that I may be wrong.

Either way, a majority of white women support Trump today. To me, that disturbing his views on abortion rights and civility.

What's funny is I'm the opposite. I was much more conservative in my youth than today....I get more and more liberal every day.

 

[Playball40]

I grew up listening to feminists preaching about wimmin being the boss of their own bodies.
Now, if you want to argue that these are victims and their pregnancy is not their choice, maybe then you can portray them as victims of what others sow.

Until then, the only voiceless, powerless victims in this debate are the defenceless unborn babies.

I will concede however that there are undoubtedly millions of anti-feminist MEN in Ireland cheering their own new-found liberation. Pregnant? Unmarried? Too bad. So sad.

Personally I oppose late term abortions.

The problem I have with the anti abortion people who claim all life is sacred from conception is what happens when the kid is born?

If it is unwanted or born into a bad situation it is shit out of luck.

No health care, poor nutrition, poor education. and poor parenting.

Opposing abortion and not supporting universal health care are moral duplicities. But Christianity is known for selective morality.

Abortion is an easy hot button. It has little economic impact and gives Christians a moral pedestal, while ignoring other moral issues.

Abortion is a cheap political talking point for religion and conservative politicians.

There is no such thing as 'late term abortion' or 'partial birth abortion' blah blah blah. That is republican/evangelical rhetoric. Abortion after a certain point is and always has been illegal in the US.

So-called 'late term abortions' are actual medical surgeries ONLY performed on a non-viable fetus or one already deceased in-utero. In MOST cases, continuing the pregnancy can/will be very dangerous for the mother. In the ones that are not, it is extremely traumatic to have to continue a pregnancy when the fetus is already dead or will die immediately upon birth. These are WANTED pregnancies that go wrong and are SO emotionally sad for the families involved.

For the government to tell a women/family that she MUST continue a pregnancy in these instances or that the baby must be whisked away after birth to try and save it's life (even if born without a brain stem) is amazingly cruel and inhumane. The parents of that child should be able to hold that baby and say goodbye if they choose to. Period.

 

[Elixir]

Well, I'll admit that I may be wrong. I've looked at several links describing voting pattern's of white women in the 70's, 80's and 90's vs voting patterns today. It's been my hypothesis that people tend to become more conservative as they age (I had thought to blame Fox News for this as well). But after looking at the evidence, I've decided that I may be wrong.

Either way, a majority of white women support Trump today. To me, that disturbing his views on abortion rights and civility.

What's funny is I'm the opposite. I was much more conservative in my youth than today....I get more and more liberal every day.

What's "funny" is that so many people with "deep religious convictions" think it's their duty to impose their beliefs on those who don't subscribe to their superstitions. Way back in the day, people fled Europe to get free from that very kind of tyranny, wound up in North America and soon set about doing the same thing to each other.

 

[steve_bank]

Late term abortion generally refers to a fully developed fetus capable of surviving outside the womb. The compromise to the issue is a legal definition of that point in developemn6.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Late term abortion generally refers to a fully developed fetus capable of surviving outside the womb. The compromise to the issue is a legal definition of that point in developemn6.

And note that nobody does "late term" abortions for non-medical reasons in the US. It's a non-issue.

(Don't be fooled by the numbers that are listed as "elective". The word has a different meaning in the medical community, it covers not only the things someone simply decided to do (say, sterilization), but also anything that doesn't have to be done now. Those "elective" third trimester abortions are fetal defect cases.)

 

[purple_kathryn]

I grew up listening to feminists preaching about wimmin being the boss of their own bodies.
Now, if you want to argue that these are victims and their pregnancy is not their choice, maybe then you can portray them as victims of what others sow.

Until then, the only voiceless, powerless victims in this debate are the defenceless unborn babies.

I will concede however that there are undoubtedly millions of anti-feminist MEN in Ireland cheering their own new-found liberation. Pregnant? Unmarried? Too bad. So sad.

Personally I oppose late term abortions.

The problem I have with the anti abortion people who claim all life is sacred from conception is what happens when the kid is born?

If it is unwanted or born into a bad situation it is shit out of luck.

No health care, poor nutrition, poor education. and poor parenting.

Opposing abortion and not supporting universal health care are moral duplicities. But Christianity is known for selective morality.

Abortion is an easy hot button. It has little economic impact and gives Christians a moral pedestal, while ignoring other moral issues.

Abortion is a cheap political talking point for religion and conservative politicians.

There is no such thing as 'late term abortion' or 'partial birth abortion' blah blah blah. That is republican/evangelical rhetoric. Abortion after a certain point is and always has been illegal in the US.

So-called 'late term abortions' are actual medical surgeries ONLY performed on a non-viable fetus or one already deceased in-utero. In MOST cases, continuing the pregnancy can/will be very dangerous for the mother. In the ones that are not, it is extremely traumatic to have to continue a pregnancy when the fetus is already dead or will die immediately upon birth. These are WANTED pregnancies that go wrong and are SO emotionally sad for the families involved.

For the government to tell a women/family that she MUST continue a pregnancy in these instances or that the baby must be whisked away after birth to try and save it's life (even if born without a brain stem) is amazingly cruel and inhumane. The parents of that child should be able to hold that baby and say goodbye if they choose to. Period.

That was part of the problem with the 8th Amendment, women weren't able to do that at home in Ireland. You had to wait until the foetus actually died (& obviously a real risk to the woman's health if you leave things that long). If they went to England they had to pay for the procedure & bring remains home in cooler boxes or already cremated (which is also what women in NI have to do )

I knew very little about the 8th before the whole campaign and it really is a horrible thing. Women were threated with the police if the hospital thought they wouldn't go in for an induction. They weren't given any choice over medical procedures during birth. And if they fell ill with something like cancer couldn't be given treatment that might harm the pregnancy

 

[Underseer]

There is no such thing as 'late term abortion' or 'partial birth abortion' blah blah blah. That is republican/evangelical rhetoric. Abortion after a certain point is and always has been illegal in the US.

So-called 'late term abortions' are actual medical surgeries ONLY performed on a non-viable fetus or one already deceased in-utero. In MOST cases, continuing the pregnancy can/will be very dangerous for the mother. In the ones that are not, it is extremely traumatic to have to continue a pregnancy when the fetus is already dead or will die immediately upon birth. These are WANTED pregnancies that go wrong and are SO emotionally sad for the families involved.

For the government to tell a women/family that she MUST continue a pregnancy in these instances or that the baby must be whisked away after birth to try and save it's life (even if born without a brain stem) is amazingly cruel and inhumane. The parents of that child should be able to hold that baby and say goodbye if they choose to. Period.

That was part of the problem with the 8th Amendment, women weren't able to do that at home in Ireland. You had to wait until the foetus actually died (& obviously a real risk to the woman's health if you leave things that long). If they went to England they had to pay for the procedure & bring remains home in cooler boxes or already cremated (which is also what women in NI have to do )

I knew very little about the 8th before the whole campaign and it really is a horrible thing. Women were threated with the police if the hospital thought they wouldn't go in for an induction. They weren't given any choice over medical procedures during birth. And if they fell ill with something like cancer couldn't be given treatment that might harm the pregnancy

Gee, a Christian Sharia law treated women like shit?

No!

You don't say!

Christians are usually so aggressive in their desire to treat women like valued members of society. This is so unlike them! [/Facetious]

 

[Underseer]

Well, I'll admit that I may be wrong. I've looked at several links describing voting pattern's of white women in the 70's, 80's and 90's vs voting patterns today. It's been my hypothesis that people tend to become more conservative as they age (I had thought to blame Fox News for this as well). But after looking at the evidence, I've decided that I may be wrong.

Either way, a majority of white women support Trump today. To me, that disturbing his views on abortion rights and civility.

What's funny is I'm the opposite. I was much more conservative in my youth than today....I get more and more liberal every day.

What's "funny" is that so many people with "deep religious convictions" think it's their duty to impose their beliefs on those who don't subscribe to their superstitions. Way back in the day, people fled Europe to get free from that very kind of tyranny, wound up in North America and soon set about doing the same thing to each other.

Well, yeah. Religion is nothing more than a political control structure, and as you can see from this thread, even some atheists fall for it and will humiliate themselves making bad arguments in defense of what should be inexcusable.