• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.

You asked, don't cry over the answers. Of course, what it doesn't address is you ducking the question about the basis for the value of bitcoin? A pretend currency with a value that is dangerously volatile and more of a hedge to try and avoid taxes or security.

The US can never pay all its bondholders back in real terms. Perhaps in nominal terms but already past the point of no return being able to pay off debt in real terms. Which is precisely why bitcoin does have the demand it does. It is also why the central banks are buying gold, why Russia has dumped the dollar, and whyChina is now using the euro to purchase its oil. The rest of the world knows what is going on even if you don't.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.
Musk was right. The dollar is even more of a pretend currency than bitcoin is(was).

Take away the ability to enslave the population paying taxes (which is their labor) in the dollar currency....and there would be a dollar crises tomorrow.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.

You asked, don't cry over the answers. Of course, what it doesn't address is you ducking the question about the basis for the value of bitcoin? A pretend currency with a value that is dangerously volatile and more of a hedge to try and avoid taxes or security.

The US can never pay all its bondholders back in real terms. Perhaps in nominal terms but already past the point of no return being able to pay off debt in real terms. Which is precisely why bitcoin does have the demand it does. It is also why the central banks are buying gold, why Russia has dumped the dollar, and whyChina is now using the euro to purchase its oil. The rest of the world knows what is going on even if you don't.

The financial institutions that continue buy the US bonds don't seem to see it the same way.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.
Musk was right. The dollar is even more of a pretend currency than bitcoin is(was).

Take away the ability to enslave the population paying taxes (which is their labor) in the dollar currency....and there would be a dollar crises tomorrow.

Great point. But unlike Bitcoin the value of dollar is tending to be the same day to day.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
19,019
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Looking back to the OP, Bitcoin had a dramatic fall from $59K in early May to $37K late that month. It slowly dropped to about $30K on July 20, then climbed back up to $50K in late August, and it is now staying there.

Other cryptocurrencies have had similar oscillations recently, though different in detail.

Bitcoin has a market capitalization of $941 billion, the champion among cryptocorrencies, and the next one is Ethereum, at $461 B.

The next ten are: Cardano at $94 B, Binance Coin at $82 B, Tether at $67 B, XRP at $60 B, Solana at $43 B ///, Dogecoin at $39 B, Polkadot at $33 B, USD Coin at $28 B, Uniswap at $18 B, and Litecoin at $14 B

The 100th on the list has a market cap of $1 billion and the 1000th $10 million.

Something I could do some time is copy out the numbers and then look for trends, like a power law as a function of number in sequence.

Market cap = (amount in circulation) * (price per unit)
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.

You hope I am right about what? That you seem to have trouble with perspective?

My point that still seems lost to you is that, by your shouting from the roof top a phrase detached from any real perspective, it negates any point you may be trying to make. You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important. I would guess that this is some big deal being made in something you've read or watched by someone like PCR's, and are repeating it here.

I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.

But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least. Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels. Another interesting aspect of how things are going is central bank holdings. If one looks at central bank holdings as a percentage of their respective national GDP, the US again is much better off than Japan or the ECB (see figure 5 in PDF below). At the same time, IMO this is a significant experiment with fiat money and massive central bank currency injections in human history. I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.


Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.

You hope I am right about what?
That the US dollar in not headed into oblivion.

You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important.
It is not only important to myself but it has been and continues to be important to many others as well. Bitcoin did not just spring up out of no where because it was good for the criminals. It was invented to be a stable hold of wealth that could not be financially manipulated by anyone or any government. And the perceived irresponsible management of the fed is the single most important reason people invest in bit coin today. Without said FEAR of the dollar the price of bitcoin would be lower by orders of magnitude.
I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.
Thank you for sharing. I will give both of these guys a read.
But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least.Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
From your own reference the fact everyones total assets are rising like a hockey stick excepting for China is very telling. And there is no sense of urgency from our leaders this will change. If anything, it looks more likely the hockey stick will become more vertical with each coming year.
Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels.
The central bankers are clearly working with each other and that may buy some time.
I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.
It looks like a lot of financial engineering with smoke and mirrors to me. And it looks that way to the bitcoin investors too. What everyone wants to forget is that you can not wave a financial wand and be well off unless you steal from someone else or actually add real value to your economy. Our service economy of lawyers, bar tenders, government and restaurant workers is certainly not going to keep our standard of living high. Without the actual production of real consumable goods, with the manufacturing we need (and once had), it is only matter of time for real producers of the world (China) to no longer take dollars for their production.

But like I said before I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. I am from the baby boomer generation and hoping for a non drama style retirement. The last thing I need to see right now is a complete failure of all my US dollar denominated assets.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
You hope I am right about what?
That the US dollar in not headed into oblivion.
Well, I didn't say that, but I would agree. The dollar may fall as compared to some other currencies substantially at some future timeframe. But it will not more go into oblivion than the British Pound did 70 some years ago.

You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important.
It is not only important to myself but it has been and continues to be important to many others as well. Bitcoin did not just spring up out of no where because it was good for the criminals. It was invented to be a stable hold of wealth that could not be financially manipulated by anyone or any government. And the perceived irresponsible management of the fed is the single most important reason people invest in bit coin today. Without said FEAR of the dollar the price of bitcoin would be lower by orders of magnitude.
I'd say crypto currencies rose largely out of the reality that technological improvements allowed for the advent of them more than anything. But w/o these crypto currencies, the value of gold probably would have risen much higher in the last 2 years.

I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.
Thank you for sharing. I will give both of these guys a read.
Doug Noland has been at this for over 20 years with the same Bubble message, but he also hasn't claimed that things would implode anytime soon. He puts out a weekly summary that is interesting:
http://creditbubblebulletin.blogspot.com/p/credit-bubble-bulletin.html

To read John Mauldin's regular stuff you have to sign up for emails, and he does soft sell various financial investment services, so be aware:
https://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts

On the other side, I like to read Prof. Barry Eichengreen, though he doesn't put out a lot. He also publishes in a good site called Project Syndicate.
https://eml.berkeley.edu/~eichengr/reviews.shtml
https://www.project-syndicate.org/


But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least.Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
From your own reference the fact everyones total assets are rising like a hockey stick excepting for China is very telling. And there is no sense of urgency from our leaders this will change. If anything, it looks more likely the hockey stick will become more vertical with each coming year.
But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels.
The central bankers are clearly working with each other and that may buy some time.
I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.
It looks like a lot of financial engineering with smoke and mirrors to me. And it looks that way to the bitcoin investors too. What everyone wants to forget is that you can not wave a financial wand and be well off unless you steal from someone else or actually add real value to your economy. Our service economy of lawyers, bar tenders, government and restaurant workers is certainly not going to keep our standard of living high. Without the actual production of real consumable goods, with the manufacturing we need (and once had), it is only matter of time for real producers of the world (China) to no longer take dollars for their production.

But like I said before I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. I am from the baby boomer generation and hoping for a non drama style retirement. The last thing I need to see right now is a complete failure of all my US dollar denominated assets.
I have to say that what the central bankers are doing is unsettling to me as they have gone into uncharted territory. However, what so many critics of these modern adventures seem to ignore is the extreme jolts governments and economies had when it was all tied to physical things like gold and silver. Spain once was a very dominant world power. They accumulated vast amounts of gold, and it blew up in their face in a big way. (the short version)

I don't see any 'failure' of the dollar in the future, but sure anything is possible. I won't be eligible for full SS until 2030, so I figure that is when it will hit its funding wall if Congress does nothing. But even that isn't the end. Worst case would be a 20-25% reduction in benefits, but that again assumes that the Congressional Critters do absolutely nothing.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
35,727
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.
Yeah, western news is pretty bleak...

Doug Noland spent some time on China last Friday...with lots of cited articles and further commentary...
http://creditbubblebulletin.blogspot.com/2021/09/weekly-commentary-easy-money-anesthesia.html
Risks grow exponentially during the “Terminal Phase” of Bubble excess. I assumed Beijing would move decisively to rein in excess, particularly in lending and apartment speculation. But what is now unfolding goes way beyond measures to contain excess. China has begun a transitioning phase, with momentous yet uncertain consequences and ramifications. What began seemingly as a campaign to rein in apartment speculation and crack down on the big tech monopolies has speedily developed into something much more systemic and Draconian.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
19,019
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.
Like what?

I've seen this: Ren Zhiqiang: Chinese tycoon who criticized Xi Jinping's handling of coronavirus jailed for 18 years - CNN

Recently, this happened:

I think that it is why Vladimir Putin jailed Russian oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky, and why Mohammed bin Salman shook down several officials and business leaders in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton Hotel. To show possible competition who's boss.

-

I'm reminded of the  Altalena Affair in Israel's War of Independence. Some background. As Zionists arrived in Palestine between WWI and WWII, they organized militias to protect themselves and to assert their claims. The most mainstream one was  Haganah ("Defense"), but some people thought that it was not assertive enough, and split off and formed  Irgun (Irgun Zvai Leumi, "National Military Organization", Etzel, initially Haganah Bet, "Haganah B"). Some of the Irgun's members thought that it was too restrained, so they split off and formed  Lehi (militant group) (Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", the Stern Gang).

"Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948." It did terrorist attacks against the British rulers of Palestine, and also against Arabs. One of its leaders became Prime Minister some decades later: Menachem Begin.

Lehi went even further, wanting to fight the British in WWII and make an alliance with Nazi Germany to receive all the Jews that that nation didn't like -- even after word got out of the Nazis' mass murders of Jews. It also did terrorism, and one of its leaders also became Prime Minister some decades later: Yitzhak Shamir

When Israel became independent, Haganah became the Israel Defense Force, but the Irgun and Lehi didn't join at first. The Irgun arranged for a shipment of weapons aboard the Altalena, a former tank landing ship, but Israel's leaders did not want rival militias to exist, so they attacked that ship. The Irgun's members ended up being forced to join the IDF, and Lehi was also dissolved as an independent militia.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
19,019
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
China's top regulators ban crypto trading and mining, sending bitcoin tumbling | Reuters
and
China Declares All Cryptocurrency Transactions Illegal - The New York Times
he clampdown in China comes as the country’s central bank has been testing its own digital currency, the electronic Chinese yuan. A notice posted by the central bank explicitly called out Bitcoin and Ether, the two most popular cryptocurrencies, for being issued by “non-monetary authorities.”

George Selgin, an economist and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, said that creating a central bank digital currency and making crypto transactions illegal were part of the Chinese government’s broader effort to channel citizens away from popular private financial services providers, such as AliPay and WeChat. A state-controlled digital currency would allow the government to collect data and keep tabs on citizens’ everyday transactions and would make it easier for the government to control access to an individual’s funds, among other concerns.

“This is really about establishing a state monopoly in payments,” he said. “The most obvious implication is that the state will have more opportunities to monitor citizens’ economic activity.”
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Bitcoin crashed. $48,000 to $40,000... back up to $44,000. Bitcoin is like Trump. No viable value other than paranoid right-wing fear, erratic, and it just won't go away.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
Bitcoin crashed. $48,000 to $40,000... back up to $44,000. Bitcoin is like Trump. No viable value other than paranoid right-wing fear, erratic, and it just won't go away.

Well, hopefully that doesn't work in reverse...aka...Clownstick is like Bitcoin. Cuz Bitcoin, far from found on road dead, is teasingly closing on its previous peak ;)
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,131
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.
Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
It is amazingly resilient eventually. The OP started when crypto dropped because of a sketch on SNL. Amazing how it can be so fragile and resilient. It is like the Patriots defense that'll give up 80 yards over 7 minutes, but only 3 points.

Exactly, just like that!
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
It is amazingly resilient eventually. The OP started when crypto dropped because of a sketch on SNL. Amazing how it can be so fragile and resilient. It is like the Patriots defense that'll give up 80 yards over 7 minutes, but only 3 points.

Exactly, just like that!

Or like tickers: GME, MMAT, CREX, OSTK; or like oil and cotton prices
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
4,345
Location
muh-dahy-nuh
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.
Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.
Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Bare minimum subsistence living sucks hugely, and pretty much the entire history of the human race since the paeleolithic era has consisted of our ongoing efforts to ensure that as much of our energy, effort, time, and productivity as is humanly possible has gone into pleasure, rather than actual need.

Stuff done purely for pleasure is literally the goal of human society. What the fuck is the point of existence, other than to do things we enjoy?

There's nothing inherently bad about doing pointless shit for the laughs. Living in a nice environment with a diverse biosphere, clean air and water, and pretty plants and animals is one of many worthwhile goals that's not strictly essential for mere survival. And wanting to fly to another continent just to gawp at some natural wonder or work of art (or wanting to get rich by running a complex calculation on a computer to mine virtual currency; or wanting to look pretty by adorning yourself with gold and gemstones) isn't inherently destructive to our environment. We choose to do these things in ways that are destructive, because we don't really care. And we don't really care, because we are largely able to divert the costs and hardships onto other people's shoulders.

It's always been that way; But we are, slowly, getting better at shouldering our own costs rather than externalising them. Carbon taxes, for example, can ensure that causing climate change becomes unprofitable, and/or that those who emit carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases pay for them to be removed from the atmosphere by whatever means are available - in an ideal world, the 'tax' would exactly match the cost of that removal, and would fall or rise as that cost fell or rose.

There are plenty of solutions to various environmental and social issues. But resolving them by not having fun is utterly stupid and pointless; It's a "solution" only marginally less catastrophically dumb than "just kill everyone".
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
I find the faith people have in this cryptocurrency to be so precarious. And it is so bad for the climate. Weird how poeple are propping it up.
Yes, in a perfect world the crypto currencies that rely on computer power for expansion of supply is ugly. However, humans (and Americans in particular) don't really seem to care much about the environment, at least in terms of their wallet. The 3 top selling vehicles in the US are the 3 large American pickup trucks, one hell of a commuter car. I think there is one real economy car in the US top 10 (our 11 year old Prius isn't even close top 10 anymore). We humans mine gold, diamonds and gems at great energy and environmental expense, and a significant part of that is so we can wear them as shinny baubles. How much of the world of air travel is for actual need over pleasure? How much of the things we buy are wrapped in plastics, gets throw away after that one use? In my supposedly more liberal area, clamshell plastics have no real destination anymore other than the landfill. The US's massive military is an environmental disaster all by itself...

Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,055
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".
Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,055
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".
Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
So, the complaint that many of us have, and which is valid, is that we could do all the exact same stuff that we do with crypto today... Without the environmental damage.

It would be like if someone invented something identical to cigarettes but didn't cause negative health effects and people were like "naw, I wanna get lung cancer".
Choices choices...and the nearly 2 million full size trucks sold in the US each year are necessary for what? And who's entertainment and baubles are more legit?

That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,055
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

As I said, I'm not going to go into whether people have a right to do "things" for "status". Humans can and will pursue goals.

I can guarantee you that if the us government mandated trucks happen without ICE going forward, 2 million affordable tricks without ICE would suddenly start happening.

It doesn't matter what people do with them on this level of the conversation; what matters is whether they are built efficiently.

With Bitcoin, there is not even a material obstacle to forking it in a way that doesn't have the original inefficiencies. It is just the laziness of the programmers that keeps it so, and that laziness will evaporate the moment that their wealth generated from the platform is no longer flowing as they wish on account of it being rendered illegal until they fix it.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,068
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

I have a year 2000 Ford F250, V10 gas burner. It spends the vast majority of its time hooked up to a 2-horse trailer, hauling back and forth from relatively close-by shows and clinics, and the rest as a construction/utility vehicle. I bought it in 2005 with 8k miles on it and today it has all of 41,000. I'd love to have an electric truck but can't justify the expense given how little use it would see. I'll just have to keep on destroying the planet...
 

Gun Nut

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
2,746
Location
Colorado
Basic Beliefs
None
That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

I have a year 2000 Ford F250, V10 gas burner. It spends the vast majority of its time hooked up to a 2-horse trailer, hauling back and forth from relatively close-by shows and clinics, and the rest as a construction/utility vehicle. I bought it in 2005 with 8k miles on it and today it has all of 41,000. I'd love to have an electric truck but can't justify the expense given how little use it would see. I'll just have to keep on destroying the planet...

I use my truck even less than you do, now-a-days.. I won't be replacing it for several years. But maybe for you, someday, take a look at the new F150. It's all electric, as powerful as two teslas, can power your entire house for a week, and has infinite torque for towing the entire planet behind you.
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
4,345
Location
muh-dahy-nuh
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

Okay, I take your point. Right now I don't see the utility of something like bitcoin and it surely wasn't created for it's entertainment value. I just see the materialization of greed. For me and perhaps others I would look upon a Bitcoin farm and all that I would see is that we have managed to take this most undesirable human trait and present it in it's physical form.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,055
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Iceland and Canada are no slouches when it comes to mining this, this, whatever it is. China was #1 until Xi-J got an itch. You seem to suggest that not giving a damn is a shared national trait. I think folks will do whatever their governments let them get away with.

My point is that humans do tons of things that consume tons of energy for pleasure/entertainment. I find it odd to single out crypto mining as bad for the environment. Though Americans seem far more disinclined to work towards using less carbon based energy, than the EU and Japan. It seems like the US is a long time away from accepting the idea of a significant carbon/energy tax increase. Of course that could partly be due to the reality that we have far more carbon based energy to make money off of...

Bibly, thanks for making a more detailed version of my point.

Okay, I take your point. Right now I don't see the utility of something like bitcoin and it surely wasn't created for it's entertainment value. I just see the materialization of greed. For me and perhaps others I would look upon a Bitcoin farm and all that I would see is that we have managed to take this most undesirable human trait and present it in it's physical form.

Indeed that is what many see. But more, the utility of it is the same utility money has, but more secure, and capable of being spent without the inconvenience of worrying about whether someone even could possibly say "no". In many ways the value of Bitcoin is having (nearly) absolute agency to spend and receive currency without third party involvement.

Of course, in Bitcoin there is a third party, but it is similar to the "third party" of physics, the virtual particle field: it can be safely ignored in the ubiquity of it's operation.

Banks can go bankrupt, close their doors, deny you access, give all your money to the IRS, freeze your accounts, demand you pay fees for access to your money...

There are no "god mode powers" with digital currencies currently on offer, and that's one of the features "on sale", namely that I don't have to sell my soul to Wells Fargo to own a secure account.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
That's the thing: I didn't discuss "necessity" and I didn't invite "necessity" to the conversation. That was you, inviting that rude asshole in here where it doesn't belong except perhaps in narrow focus.

I'm talking about "necessary to a goal" not "necessary first for any other goals to be considered".

The goal of trucks is to have a big vehicle that can see far, go over adverse terrain, and haul stuff easily. Sometimes also to be "loud".

This is the discussion not of whether truck; truck or not as you please. This is the issue of "can we truck without ICE", or "can we crypto WITHOUT burning the world for it". The answer to both is "yes".
If the point is the last paragraph, then sure yes to both, sort of, kind of. Because the US, today, cannot produce 2 million affordable trucks w/o ICE. The 'yes' sounds great for goals for the future...

As far as goals of trucks, probably 75% of those trucks are single person commuter vehicles, with a primary goal of "status"...one can tell by the shiny, unblemished looks as the lone driver is spotted on the highway/road going to their job in a building.

As I said, I'm not going to go into whether people have a right to do "things" for "status". Humans can and will pursue goals.

I can guarantee you that if the us government mandated trucks happen without ICE going forward, 2 million affordable tricks without ICE would suddenly start happening.

It doesn't matter what people do with them on this level of the conversation; what matters is whether they are built efficiently.

With Bitcoin, there is not even a material obstacle to forking it in a way that doesn't have the original inefficiencies. It is just the laziness of the programmers that keeps it so, and that laziness will evaporate the moment that their wealth generated from the platform is no longer flowing as they wish on account of it being rendered illegal until they fix it.
The point I was making is that it is weird to me to pick on crypto mining in particular. If one wants to argue for a hefty carbon tax to reduce all sorts of wasted expenditures of energy, count me in 110%.
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
I have a year 2000 Ford F250, V10 gas burner. It spends the vast majority of its time hooked up to a 2-horse trailer, hauling back and forth from relatively close-by shows and clinics, and the rest as a construction/utility vehicle. I bought it in 2005 with 8k miles on it and today it has all of 41,000. I'd love to have an electric truck but can't justify the expense given how little use it would see. I'll just have to keep on destroying the planet...

I use my truck even less than you do, now-a-days.. I won't be replacing it for several years. But maybe for you, someday, take a look at the new F150. It's all electric, as powerful as two teslas, can power your entire house for a week, and has infinite torque for towing the entire planet behind you.
And my other vehicle is a 2017 4WD Tacoma, that just crossed 20k miles. It also sits a lot, when not being used to do things a Prius can't do so well...no argument on my part against trucks in general, nor against humans entertaining themselves...that sounded weird.
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
4,345
Location
muh-dahy-nuh
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Okay, I take your point. Right now I don't see the utility of something like bitcoin and it surely wasn't created for it's entertainment value. I just see the materialization of greed. For me and perhaps others I would look upon a Bitcoin farm and all that I would see is that we have managed to take this most undesirable human trait and present it in it's physical form.

Indeed that is what many see. But more, the utility of it is the same utility money has, but more secure, and capable of being spent without the inconvenience of worrying about whether someone even could possibly say "no". In many ways the value of Bitcoin is having (nearly) absolute agency to spend and receive currency without third party involvement.

Of course, in Bitcoin there is a third party, but it is similar to the "third party" of physics, the virtual particle field: it can be safely ignored in the ubiquity of it's operation.

Banks can go bankrupt, close their doors, deny you access, give all your money to the IRS, freeze your accounts, demand you pay fees for access to your money...

There are no "god mode powers" with digital currencies currently on offer, and that's one of the features "on sale", namely that I don't have to sell my soul to Wells Fargo to own a secure account.

Yes, I just always seen it as fantastical that any government, particularly the US would allow the dollar to be supplanted by it. This with the slow, and I believe increasingly so, transaction times, I just don’t understand the attraction aside from countries with less stable currencies.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,055
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Okay, I take your point. Right now I don't see the utility of something like bitcoin and it surely wasn't created for it's entertainment value. I just see the materialization of greed. For me and perhaps others I would look upon a Bitcoin farm and all that I would see is that we have managed to take this most undesirable human trait and present it in it's physical form.

Indeed that is what many see. But more, the utility of it is the same utility money has, but more secure, and capable of being spent without the inconvenience of worrying about whether someone even could possibly say "no". In many ways the value of Bitcoin is having (nearly) absolute agency to spend and receive currency without third party involvement.

Of course, in Bitcoin there is a third party, but it is similar to the "third party" of physics, the virtual particle field: it can be safely ignored in the ubiquity of it's operation.

Banks can go bankrupt, close their doors, deny you access, give all your money to the IRS, freeze your accounts, demand you pay fees for access to your money...

There are no "god mode powers" with digital currencies currently on offer, and that's one of the features "on sale", namely that I don't have to sell my soul to Wells Fargo to own a secure account.

Yes, I just always seen it as fantastical that any government, particularly the US would allow the dollar to be supplanted by it. This with the slow, and I believe increasingly so, transaction times, I just don’t understand the attraction aside from countries with less stable currencies.

Transaction time is a function of "proof of work", which many of us argue is the real sticking point with digital currencies, with respect to end users.

On the government side, this creates a single broken concern which they have a right to see respected, and a number of broken concerns that I would shit in the mouth of the person that voiced them.

The primary concern, taxes.

The secondary concern, purely deserving of having someone shit in your mouth, "we want to be nannies over what you do with the money."

Of course, we have plenty of things that don't stand to be done for profit, but the same of us recognize that such a set is identical to "the set of things you don't let people do, period". Generally, that can be addressed with laws against the activity itself rather than the economic exchange.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
Bitcoin is now at about the same level when I sold it in early 2021. I don't pretend to know if it'll fall more, but I would guess that it will.

What's become clear this year though is that bitcoin isn't a "safe haven" or "digital gold" that many claim it is. Bitcoin fell pretty much in line with stock market. It's part of the same speculative tech bubble that's now being burst.
 

marc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
1,803
Location
always on the move
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, skeptic, nerd
huff po on crypto problems this week

found this part funny:

Stablecoins have been viewed as a safe harbor haven among cryptocurrencies. That’s because the value of many stablecoins is pegged to a government-backed currency, such as the U.S. dollar, or precious metals such as gold.

thought part of the appeal of crypto was that it frees you from the banks and currency manipulation of government backed currency. ;)
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
If I understood correctly, this crash was precipitated by a technical failure of a single stable coin platform?
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
Wired had another interesting take on the Terra/Luna stablecoin mess:


So basically, the idea was to have an algorithm to peg UST (Terra) to $1, unlike earlier stablecoins like Tether that were (allegedly) backed by actual dollar deposits. The article seems to imply that it was inevitable that this scheme would crash and burn sooner or later because it wasn't held together by anything but collective belief that it would work. But when the value of the "stable" UST token started to fall a lot below one dollar, the system collapsed.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
The greatest financial scam of all time. A legal Ponzi scheme. Other than people willing to buy and sell, the value of any currency is tied to economies and real goods and services. There is no intrinsic value to crypto currency.

The originators propebly converted profits to gold, real estate. and US dollars. :D

There were alleged practical reasons to use crypto currency such as trasparent and traceable global trasnsactions. It was said it woud suppress drug monay. However people figured out how tol aunder crypto just like criminals do with paper currency.


What is the conversion rate to Monopoly money?
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The greatest financial scam of all time. A legal Ponzi scheme. Other than people willing to buy and sell, the value of any currency is tied to economies and real goods and services. There is no intrinsic value to crypto currency.

The originators propebly converted profits to gold, real estate. and US dollars. :D

There were alleged practical reasons to use crypto currency such as trasparent and traceable global trasnsactions. It was said it woud suppress drug monay. However people figured out how tol aunder crypto just like criminals do with paper currency.


What is the conversion rate to Monopoly money?
I think that you're probably right. Another issue is that many people have put all their investment in Crypto. All your eggs in any one basket is a mistake. Diversify. I have some crypto, but it's probably under 2%. I'm pretty damned exposed in the stock market now, and it's not doing well right now! But I sleep fine at night because I'm invested in hundreds (thousands) of companies via index funds.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
The greatest financial scam of all time. A legal Ponzi scheme. Other than people willing to buy and sell, the value of any currency is tied to economies and real goods and services. There is no intrinsic value to crypto currency.

The originators propebly converted profits to gold, real estate. and US dollars. :D

There were alleged practical reasons to use crypto currency such as trasparent and traceable global trasnsactions. It was said it woud suppress drug monay. However people figured out how tol aunder crypto just like criminals do with paper currency.


What is the conversion rate to Monopoly money?
Bitcoin might prove to be a failure but I still would not call it a scam. I never invested in bitcoin myself but there were many institutions who did, including the government of El Salvador. And as volatile as it is...it still has not reached what I would call failure yet.

About the only thing one can really conclude so far with certainty, is that bitcoin would have never become popular in the first place if the world had not lost complete faith and trust in the US reserve currency. Beginning with the Nixon decoupling of the gold standard, to today rejection of a former superpower out of their dollar denominated assets. The US has properly told the world just how untrustworthy the US dollar is. We have just seen how the US can sanction anyone anywhere at will and their dollar assets are canceled.

So if bitcoin does indeed fail, I would expect some other idea to take its place. Simply because the producers of the world will always desire some kind of honest and trustworthy storage of their labor. And that would not be the US dollar.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Reminiscent of the great stock market crash? Many ignorant investors thinking they could get easy money by investing in anything.

Crypto also has the scifi cool factor.

I exect the originators of first coalmines are very wealthy right now and the crypto market can disappear without affecting them. In a Ponzi scheme the originators escape with a lot of money when the stocks inevitably crash.

Some years back two guys started a small company with not much physical resources and went public, a legitimate startup. Within a few monts for some reason peopie began wildy trading the stock and the price skyrocketed. When interviewd the owners said thay had no clue what was going on, they had no product yet. Crypto was more of an idea than a commodity with value. I would be very very surprised if the orginal crtors had anything but making a lot of money in mind. A get rich quick scheme.

As to institutions investing, anybody can get investments wrong and often do.

A news segment on the crypto crash showed a crypto commercial with an NBA star promoting it with a rap bet in the background.

I never thought about using it. You ahve to buy crypto and then use it to buy something? Seems like a credit rt debit card is more hamdy.

I carry cash in my wallet but I use a credit card exclusively unless a store does not take plastic.
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The greatest financial scam of all time. A legal Ponzi scheme. Other than people willing to buy and sell, the value of any currency is tied to economies and real goods and services. There is no intrinsic value to crypto currency.

The originators propebly converted profits to gold, real estate. and US dollars. :D

There were alleged practical reasons to use crypto currency such as trasparent and traceable global trasnsactions. It was said it woud suppress drug monay. However people figured out how tol aunder crypto just like criminals do with paper currency.


What is the conversion rate to Monopoly money?
Bitcoin might prove to be a failure but I still would not call it a scam. I never invested in bitcoin myself but there were many institutions who did, including the government of El Salvador. And as volatile as it is...it still has not reached what I would call failure yet.

About the only thing one can really conclude so far with certainty, is that bitcoin would have never become popular in the first place if the world had not lost complete faith and trust in the US reserve currency. Beginning with the Nixon decoupling of the gold standard, to today rejection of a former superpower out of their dollar denominated assets. The US has properly told the world just how untrustworthy the US dollar is. We have just seen how the US can sanction anyone anywhere at will and their dollar assets are canceled.

So if bitcoin does indeed fail, I would expect some other idea to take its place. Simply because the producers of the world will always desire some kind of honest and trustworthy storage of their labor. And that would not be the US dollar.
Well, this is just malarky. Just ask any exporter or importer: the currency of choice is the dollar. In 2020, 90% of the worlds international transactions were conducted in dollars. Not gold. Not the ruble.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
China woud like to replace the dollar with the yen.

Global trade requires stability, that is not going to come from a currency not directly backed by a major government.

To me currency is simply a form of barter, I get money for labor and I can exchange my labor for food. If the US governmt creted a crpto currency equivalent toand tied to the dollar for digital transactions that would be a different matter. There was someting in past news about that being under consideration. I'd have to fact check, I think China may have one.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
 
The greatest financial scam of all time. A legal Ponzi scheme. Other than people willing to buy and sell, the value of any currency is tied to economies and real goods and services. There is no intrinsic value to crypto currency.

The originators propebly converted profits to gold, real estate. and US dollars. :D

There were alleged practical reasons to use crypto currency such as trasparent and traceable global trasnsactions. It was said it woud suppress drug monay. However people figured out how tol aunder crypto just like criminals do with paper currency.


What is the conversion rate to Monopoly money?
Bitcoin might prove to be a failure but I still would not call it a scam. I never invested in bitcoin myself but there were many institutions who did, including the government of El Salvador. And as volatile as it is...it still has not reached what I would call failure yet.

About the only thing one can really conclude so far with certainty, is that bitcoin would have never become popular in the first place if the world had not lost complete faith and trust in the US reserve currency. Beginning with the Nixon decoupling of the gold standard, to today rejection of a former superpower out of their dollar denominated assets. The US has properly told the world just how untrustworthy the US dollar is. We have just seen how the US can sanction anyone anywhere at will and their dollar assets are canceled.

So if bitcoin does indeed fail, I would expect some other idea to take its place. Simply because the producers of the world will always desire some kind of honest and trustworthy storage of their labor. And that would not be the US dollar.
Well, this is just malarky. Just ask any exporter or importer: the currency of choice is the dollar. In 2020, 90% of the worlds international transactions were conducted in dollars. Not gold. Not the ruble.
But that does not mean they are happy about it at all. Ask yourself this hypothetical question. If I produce what is $100 worth of profits and goods, put those dollars in the bank, then can only purchase the equivalent of $90 worth of goods tomorrow....can I stay in business? Why are all the countries who have been heavily sanctioned starting to buy gold reserves? Why do poor people care about inflation more than rich people?

And it is not just the incompetence of the US government either. There exists a whole group of corrupt money changing rent seekers such as the central banks who are greatly benefiting while producers and users of their monetary system (which is most of us) are paying for this. The design of bitcoin was to decentralize the system...to do away with the central bank leaches who produce nothing but suck the labor from others. Bitcoin has the goal to level the playing making financial engineering impossible... making it impossible to dilute the supply, taking from the poor and giving to the rich, as is the case today. Why do you think that El Salvador endorsed bitcoin in favor of the US dollar?

Obviously we are not there yet. But I believe the goal is correct that someday such a fair monetary system may become possible.
 
Top Bottom