Is this a good aspect of Sharia law?

[NobleSavage]

1) The family of the victim is the one who carries out the execution. 2) The family can give amnesty. 3) If you are gonna have the death penalty a chair and rope seem much simpler and more to the point than our insanely complex methods of execution.

 

[Jayjay]

The family can be pressured or bribed.

 

[NobleSavage]

The family can be pressured or bribed.

Yeah, so can our legal system.

 

[dx713]

Justice is not about the victims need for revenge, justice is about protecting society.
Now, reparation for victims, when possible, is part of the "protecting society" goal. But revenge isn't reparation. A murdered loved one isn't going back to life when the murderer is killed. A rape isn't going to feel less painful when the rapist is raped (I've read that for pedophilia or date rape, having society agree that the rapist was the one in the wrong can be part of the healing process, but there's no need to kill him or have him raped for that to work).

So yes, there's a reason why that kind of law (not only Muslim had them in the middle ages) has been abandonned by democracies.

 

[NobleSavage]

Justice is not about the victims need for revenge, justice is about protecting society.

You mean it should be. I notice you are in France (and a nice area of France). The US has a very punitive and revenge based system. We are just dressed up nicer than the middle ages.

 

[bilby]

Justice is not about the victims need for revenge, justice is about protecting society.

You mean it should be. I notice you are in France (and a nice area of France). The US has a very punitive and revenge based system. We are just dressed up nicer than the middle ages.

You have a punitive and revenge based system instead of justice. That it is refered to as a 'justice' system is either a simple error, an attempt at propaganda, or some kind of twisted joke - or perhaps all three.

 

[NobleSavage]

You mean it should be. I notice you are in France (and a nice area of France). The US has a very punitive and revenge based system. We are just dressed up nicer than the middle ages.

You have a punitive and revenge based system instead of justice. That it is refered to as a 'justice' system is either a simple error, an attempt at propaganda, or some kind of twisted joke - or perhaps all three.

Yes, exactly. I guess my point was that I like this aspect of Shari law better than what we have. It's verboten to say anything good about Shari law, but when I saw this video I thought, "who are we to criticize."

 

[Unbeatable]

Depends on how you define "good".

1) The family of the victim is the one who carries out the execution.

I don't want the legal system to condone and pander to the desire for revenge, period.

2) The family can give amnesty.

For any reason? I like the possibility of amnesty, but not the idea of basing it on something as arbitrary as the family's whims. I want things to be more rational and regulated than that.

3) If you are gonna have the death penalty a chair and rope seem much simpler and more to the point than our insanely complex methods of execution.

If we're going to have the death penalty, I'd rather it use inert gas.

If there must be a trade-off between being simple and to the point vs. being humane and minimizing the probability of unintended complications, I value the latter more than the former.

On a practical level, I have my doubts about "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" arguments in general. I have this suspicion that it's like whack-a-mole-- simplify one part of the process and you end up complicating a different part, so that there isn't necessarily any net gain. In this case, I wonder if using cruder technology will open the door to more lawsuits. And in general, I worry that the endgame of "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" proponents is often an overall reduction in civil rights and legal recourse against state-sanctioned violence, something of which I certainly don't approve.

 

[NobleSavage]

On a practical level, I have my doubts about "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" arguments in general. I have this suspicion that it's like whack-a-mole-- simplify one part of the process and you end up complicating a different part, so that there isn't necessarily any net gain. In this case, I wonder if using cruder technology will open the door to more lawsuits. And in general, I worry that the endgame of "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" proponents is often an overall reduction in civil rights and legal recourse against state-sanctioned violence, something of which I certainly don't approve.

I think prisoners -- with qualifications -- should be offered the option of a painless death.

 

[Keith&Co.]

1) The family of the victim is the one who carries out the execution.

That strikes me as more of a burden than closure. But that's me. I would second-guess myself horribly, trying to decide if i really thought he deserved execution or if i was just being vindictive.
Or if i let him off, am i convinced of his innocence, being compassionate, or just squeamish?
Plus, good God, can you imagine the emails of everyone with an opinion on the matter, before and after the execution or release?
'You should,' 'you shouldn't,' 'you gotta,'
'be a man,' 'don't wimp out,'
'god wants you to love your enemy,' 'god says you can take an eye for an eye,'
'you did good,' 'you did it wrong,' 'congratulations, you're about as civilized as Stalin,' 'way to burden society with your mistakes, asshole,' and so on....

But what scares me is just how many of my neighbors would leap at the chance.

- - - Updated - - -

I think prisoners -- with qualifications -- should be offered the option of a painless death.

What qualifications? On the painless method options? Or on the crime they committed?
Do you think there are criminals that don't deserve a painless death?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The ability for a family to forgive a murder is horrific and barbaric. I can't see how that would amount to anything more than a license for rich people to kill whomever they choose and then just pay a fine.

 

[NobleSavage]

That strikes me as more of a burden than closure. But that's me. I would second-guess myself horribly, trying to decide if i really thought he deserved execution or if i was just being vindictive.
Or if i let him off, am i convinced of his innocence, being compassionate, or just squeamish?
Plus, good God, can you imagine the emails of everyone with an opinion on the matter, before and after the execution or release?
'You should,' 'you shouldn't,' 'you gotta,'
'be a man,' 'don't wimp out,'
'god wants you to love your enemy,' 'god says you can take an eye for an eye,'
'you did good,' 'you did it wrong,' 'congratulations, you're about as civilized as Stalin,' 'way to burden society with your mistakes, asshole,' and so on....

Yeah, I didn't think of that. I'd be interested in how it works in various Sharia law countries.. I wonder what the social pressures or customs are like for the victim.

But what scares me is just how many of my neighbors would leap at the chance.

I assume you mean leap at the chance to chose death? The reason I like the choice is because I'd most likely go the other direction.

What qualifications? On the painless method options? Or on the crime they committed?
Do you think there are criminals that don't deserve a painless death?

Qualifications like you don't get the death option for a 10 day sentence. No, I don't think anyone deserves a painful death. It bothers me when people make statements like, "The electric chair is too good for them."

 

[NobleSavage]

The ability for a family to forgive a murder is horrific and barbaric. I can't see how that would amount to anything more than a license for rich people to kill whomever they choose and then just pay a fine.

I've always find you to be very logical, but this time I'm not following. Say you are a poor person and a rich person kills your kid. Rich family tries to bribe you with millions of dollars. You say, "fuck you and your money."

 

[Keith&Co.]

Qualifications like you don't get the death option for a 10 day sentence.

Ah. I thought you were talking about prisoners that had already been given a death sentence. That some could choose painless, or what they would think might be painless, some were going to be covered in BBQ sauce and thrown into a pit full of badgers with hangovers.

I assume you mean leap at the chance to chose death? The reason I like the choice is because I'd most likely go the other direction.

Then testify on the defendant's behalf at the sentencing. Putting it in the hands of people who've been demanding 'justice' since the arraignment, grieving through the trial, frustrated by the appeals (assuming we retain anything like appeals when we adopt demi-sharia), aghast at the televised interviews and the talking heads analysis... Many of them are just hoping that killing the guy will make the hurting end.

 

[dx713]

The ability for a family to forgive a murder is horrific and barbaric. I can't see how that would amount to anything more than a license for rich people to kill whomever they choose and then just pay a fine.

I've always find you to be very logical, but this time I'm not following. Say you are a poor person and a rich person kills your kid. Rich family tries to bribe you with millions of dollars. You say, "fuck you and your money."

"But think about the wonderful opportunities that money would open for the victim's brother and sister! Do you really want to deny them that just to get your revenge? It won't bring the kid back!"
I can already hear the rest of the family and the neighbours putting pressure on you (the same who would hate you for "caving in" or "selling your kid" if you accepted the bargain, of course)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Rich family tries to bribe you with millions of dollars. You say, "fuck you and your money."

Rich person points out you can do nothing to bring your kid back, BUT he'll make sure your other four children go through college so they can get good jobs and not be poor anymore... You say...?
a) I'd rather punish your fucking child.
b) Yes, please, get my kids out of this neighborhood.

Either one shows a weakness of the system.

 

[NobleSavage]

Rich family tries to bribe you with millions of dollars. You say, "fuck you and your money."

Rich person points out you can do nothing to bring your kid back, BUT he'll make sure your other four children go through college so they can get good jobs and not be poor anymore... You say...?
a) I'd rather punish your fucking child.
b) Yes, please, get my kids out of this neighborhood.

Either one shows a weakness of the system.

There is gonna be weakness in whatever system. It's just a matter of where the inflection points are. Death row isn't a high income neighborhood.

 

[untermensche]

But where is the profit?

In the US we have figured out a way so that the rich can profit from crime and unjust laws like drug prohibition.

And we all pay them their profit through tax dollars.

 

[NobleSavage]

But where is the profit?

In the US we have figured out a way so that the rich can profit from crime and unjust laws like drug prohibition.

And we all pay them their profit through tax dollars.

I asked my question and tried to make my point. If you want to debate for 10 pages have at it. I'm moving on.

 

[Bronzeage]

Justice is not about the victims need for revenge, justice is about protecting society.

You mean it should be. I notice you are in France (and a nice area of France). The US has a very punitive and revenge based system. We are just dressed up nicer than the middle ages.

The United States has a system based on repentance and reform. That is why our prisons are called penitentiaries. Unfortunately, the model upon which we base our system does not work, but we haven't found anything better.