#IStandWithAhmed (or Inventing While Muslim is a thing?)

[laughing dog]

angelo & barbos, you guys should do stand up.

I dunno. I think they would bomb.

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Since he is under no obligation to explain it all, one wonders why you are still harping over this.

Because the lack of an adequate explanation was the stated reason for his detainment.

If that is true, then the cops violated his civil rights.

The inability or disinclination to explain something to the satisfaction of a cop does not give the cop Probable Cause to make an arrest. You don't seem to understand this point. Perhaps that's how it is where you live, but that's not how it works here in the US.

Perhaps I misstated it. Obviously, the contraption that Ahmed brought to school was the probable cause. Ahmed's inability to explain it was the reason why it took a while to figure out that it was not intended as a hoax which meant the police decided to take him in to make sure, according to the police chief. So while not speaking or being able to explain yourself is not itself a crime, it is not at all remarkable that a matter that could otherwise be explained on the spot might lead to an arrest otherwise.

If Ahmed hadn't already showed his clock to his engineering teacher and sought his input, there might be some question about why he was carrying it around in his backpack. But he was called into the Principal's Office and questioned by the cops after he showed it to his engineering teacher, so there really isn't a reasonable argument to be made that Ahmed was going to use it in a bomb hoax. That ship sailed the moment he pulled it out in his engineering class, demonstrated that it was a clock, and identified himself as the one who made it.

So as long as I show it it's OK?
good to know, try it next time you fly, bring a bomb.

Well, if you bring a bomb, you'll be committing a crime. That sort of thing will get you arrested.

But if all you have is a clock in a pencil case, and you don't pretend it's a bomb, then you shouldn't be arrested because having a clock you aren't pretending is a bomb isn't a crime.

I know, it's kinda quirky, but US law is like that.

It is nice when US law follows basic reasoning.

 

[barbos]

Richard Dawkins said one thing which was very important. He said had that clock had any kind of modification then point of view that it was a project would have had a significant boost. I totally agree with that and police I think agrees with that too. I think they were genuinely flabbergasted by obvious disconnect between clockboy's "explanation" and actual reality, I know I would. And I have said it before I think I need to repeat it again, it's in their job's description to pay attention to suspicious activities. If they see something suspicions they don't wait until it unravels, they go and ask what are you doing and if you explain well then they will leave you alone, but if you don't they will arrest you until they figure out what was going on. And this is a correct approach.

 

[angelo]

And that's what was done with clockboy.

 

[barbos]

Even Clockboy defenders like Mark Cuban agree that kid is weird and police did everything right.

 

[angelo]

What I find so alarming is the fact that clockboy's defenders jumped von the bandwagon of apologist simply because he is a Muslim.

 

[ZiprHead]

I dunno. I think they would bomb.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/9CdVTCDdEwI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[thebeave]

Richard Dawkins said one thing which was very important. He said had that clock had any kind of modification then point of view that it was a project would have had a significant boost. I totally agree with that and police I think agrees with that too. I think they were genuinely flabbergasted by obvious disconnect between clockboy's "explanation" and actual reality, I know I would. And I have said it before I think I need to repeat it again, it's in their job's description to pay attention to suspicious activities. If they see something suspicions they don't wait until it unravels, they go and ask what are you doing and if you explain well then they will leave you alone, but if you don't they will arrest you until they figure out what was going on. And this is a correct approach.

Hasn't the Dept of Homeland Security been telling us, "If you see something, say something"? Maybe that applies to everyone, except something you see that's been made by a Muslim?

 

[RavenSky]

angelo & barbos, you guys should do stand up.

Or do something, anyway

 

[Arctish]

Richard Dawkins said one thing which was very important. He said had that clock had any kind of modification then point of view that it was a project would have had a significant boost. I totally agree with that

Well then, let's look at the modifications:

1) layout of the clock parts had to be redesigned to fit inside a pencil case.
2) new layout and wiring had to allow for the hinged lid to be opened and closed; the wiring must not be pinched when the lid is closed nor stretched when it is opened, and must be kept from rubbing across the motherboard. So either all components must be mounted on the same surface, or the wiring must be long enough and well positioned enough to reach all components without issues.
3) the case had to be modified to allow a power cord to run from the electronic components to an outlet.

So either Dawkins and you agree the clock was a project, or Dawkins and you were just bullshitting about accepting "any kind of modification" as a significant boost to the point of view the clock was a project. If it's the latter, then I suspect a No True Scotsman fallacy will soon make an appearance.

and police I think agrees with that too. I think they were genuinely flabbergasted by obvious disconnect between clockboy's "explanation" and actual reality,

His explanation was that he brought his pencil case clock to school to show to his engineering teacher. The actual reality was that he showed it to his engineering teacher during his first class period that day. I have no idea why you think the cops would be flabbergasted by this. I know they're Texas cops but they're not that dull witted.

I know I would. And I have said it before I think I need to repeat it again, it's in their job's description to pay attention to suspicious activities. If they see something suspicions they don't wait until it unravels, they go and ask what are you doing and if you explain well then they will leave you alone, but if you don't they will arrest you until they figure out what was going on. And this is a correct approach.

And I said before and will say again:

Caution is fine. Caution is not the problem.

No one is arguing the school administration and teachers shouldn't be cautious. If a student has an item that looks like it might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, then it should be investigated.

No is saying the cops shouldn't be cautious. If they get a call about a student bringing an item to school that might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, the cops should treat the matter seriously.

But once the school authorities and police saw the gadget was just a clock, and it was learned that the student had never implied it was anything but a clock, then the authorities knew that all they were dealing with was a kid with a clock. There was no reason to arrest him. There might have been a reason to suspend him, if it was found that bringing digital clocks to school is against the rules; but in the absence of such a rule, there is no reason to suspend him. There was no reason not to simply confiscate the clock until the end of the day, and send the kid back to his classes.

The problem here was not caution, it was the overreaction of the Principal and the police, and the made up bullshit about a hoax bomb used to justify it.

 

[Arctish]

What I find so alarming is the fact that clockboy's defenders jumped von the bandwagon of apologist simply because he is a Muslim.

What I find alarming is that we've been discussing this issue for over two months, and you still don't understand that critics of the police and the Principal don't care that Ahmed is Muslim. The overreaction to the kid and his clock would have been just as unacceptable if the kid was Jewish, Christian, Wiccan, atheist, or what-the-fuck-ever.

The only way that Ahmed's faith is relevant is that it may have been a factor in the Principal and the cops' decision to be jackbooted assholes instead of thoughtful adults with the student's and school's best interests in mind.

 

[Arctish]

Hasn't the Dept of Homeland Security been telling us, "If you see something, say something"? Maybe that applies to everyone, except something you see that's been made by a Muslim?

Maybe you should watch the video again. You missed something.

 

[barbos]

Well then, let's look at the modifications:

1) layout of the clock parts had to be redesigned to fit inside a pencil case.
2) new layout and wiring had to allow for the hinged lid to be opened and closed; the wiring must not be pinched when the lid is closed nor stretched when it is opened, and must be kept from rubbing across the motherboard. So either all components must be mounted on the same surface, or the wiring must be long enough and well positioned enough to reach all components without issues.
3) the case had to be modified to allow a power cord to run from the electronic components to an outlet.

So either Dawkins and you agree the clock was a project, or Dawkins and you were just bullshitting about accepting "any kind of modification" as a significant boost to the point of view the clock was a project. If it's the latter, then I suspect a No True Scotsman fallacy will soon make an appearance.

and police I think agrees with that too. I think they were genuinely flabbergasted by obvious disconnect between clockboy's "explanation" and actual reality,

His explanation was that he brought his pencil case clock to school to show to his engineering teacher. The actual reality was that he showed it to his engineering teacher during his first class period that day. I have no idea why you think the cops would be flabbergasted by this. I know they're Texas cops but they're not that dull witted.

I know I would. And I have said it before I think I need to repeat it again, it's in their job's description to pay attention to suspicious activities. If they see something suspicions they don't wait until it unravels, they go and ask what are you doing and if you explain well then they will leave you alone, but if you don't they will arrest you until they figure out what was going on. And this is a correct approach.

And I said before and will say again:

Caution is fine. Caution is not the problem.

No one is arguing the school administration and teachers shouldn't be cautious. If a student has an item that looks like it might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, then it should be investigated.

No is saying the cops shouldn't be cautious. If they get a call about a student bringing an item to school that might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, the cops should treat the matter seriously.

But once the school authorities and police saw the gadget was just a clock, and it was learned that the student had never implied it was anything but a clock, then the authorities knew that all they were dealing with was a kid with a clock. There was no reason to arrest him. There might have been a reason to suspend him, if it was found that bringing digital clocks to school is against the rules; but in the absence of such a rule, there is no reason to suspend him. There was no reason not to simply confiscate the clock until the end of the day, and send the kid back to his classes.

The problem here was not caution, it was the overreaction of the Principal and the police, and the made up bullshit about a hoax bomb used to justify it.

Once again do you understand you are alone on this? Nobody who have a clue agrees with you, some who don't have a clue (Marc Cuban for example) even disagree with you. You repeat the same bullshit over and over again.
The thing had no modification whatsoever. At least he could have replaced the buzzer with detonator and added some explosives, that would have been a project. He did none of that, unmodified alarm clock guts in a box, if it was a project then it was stupid and very suspicions one and I am glad school and police reacted the way they reacted.

 

[Arctish]

Well then, let's look at the modifications:

1) layout of the clock parts had to be redesigned to fit inside a pencil case.
2) new layout and wiring had to allow for the hinged lid to be opened and closed; the wiring must not be pinched when the lid is closed nor stretched when it is opened, and must be kept from rubbing across the motherboard. So either all components must be mounted on the same surface, or the wiring must be long enough and well positioned enough to reach all components without issues.
3) the case had to be modified to allow a power cord to run from the electronic components to an outlet.

So either Dawkins and you agree the clock was a project, or Dawkins and you were just bullshitting about accepting "any kind of modification" as a significant boost to the point of view the clock was a project. If it's the latter, then I suspect a No True Scotsman fallacy will soon make an appearance.




His explanation was that he brought his pencil case clock to school to show to his engineering teacher. The actual reality was that he showed it to his engineering teacher during his first class period that day. I have no idea why you think the cops would be flabbergasted by this. I know they're Texas cops but they're not that dull witted.

I know I would. And I have said it before I think I need to repeat it again, it's in their job's description to pay attention to suspicious activities. If they see something suspicions they don't wait until it unravels, they go and ask what are you doing and if you explain well then they will leave you alone, but if you don't they will arrest you until they figure out what was going on. And this is a correct approach.

And I said before and will say again:

Caution is fine. Caution is not the problem.

No one is arguing the school administration and teachers shouldn't be cautious. If a student has an item that looks like it might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, then it should be investigated.

No is saying the cops shouldn't be cautious. If they get a call about a student bringing an item to school that might be a danger to themselves, the staff, or other students, the cops should treat the matter seriously.

But once the school authorities and police saw the gadget was just a clock, and it was learned that the student had never implied it was anything but a clock, then the authorities knew that all they were dealing with was a kid with a clock. There was no reason to arrest him. There might have been a reason to suspend him, if it was found that bringing digital clocks to school is against the rules; but in the absence of such a rule, there is no reason to suspend him. There was no reason not to simply confiscate the clock until the end of the day, and send the kid back to his classes.

The problem here was not caution, it was the overreaction of the Principal and the police, and the made up bullshit about a hoax bomb used to justify it.

Once again do you understand you are alone on this? Nobody who have a clue agrees with you, some who don't have a clue (Marc Cuban for example) even disagree with you. You repeat the same bullshit over and over again.
The thing had no modification whatsoever. At least he could have replaced the buzzer with detonator and added some explosives, that would have been a project. He did none of that, unmodified alarm clock guts in a box, if it was a project then it was stupid and very suspicions one and I am glad school and police reacted the way they reacted.

No True Scotsman Fallacy, right on time, with a bonus Ad Hominem.

You said Dawkins said "any kind of modification" and now you're trying to change "any" to replacing the buzzer with a detonator and adding some explosives. So if it isn't a bomb, then it wasn't modified in any way, is that it? That's an extremely silly argument.

Anyway, it's all beside the point. The point isn't how much Ahmed modified the clock layout or the case, or what Dawkins thinks about anything. The point is how the Principal and the police should react when a student brings an unfamiliar but harmless electronic gizmo to school.

 

[barbos]

School and Police reaction was absolutely correct. I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

 

[barbos]

Also, If am not mistaken Ahmed had plans to go on tour over late shows Colbert, Kimmel, etc.
Did he go anywhere? I don't recall seeing him.

 

[Arctish]

School and Police reaction was absolutely correct.

According to your country's laws, perhaps. Not according to US law.

I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

I have a slight problem with people who think they get to define what counts as a project for everyone else in the world. News flash: your opinion regarding worthiness of a project only applies to you and the projects you are considering pursuing.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Who besides Richard Dawkins cares what Richard Dawkins thinks is weird? He's an 74 year old evolutionary biologist who probably needed help hooking up his DVD player. What makes him an authority on the kinds of electronic devices a 14 year old with an interest in robotics should build?

 

[barbos]

According to your country's laws, perhaps. Not according to US law.

According to US law too.

I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

I have a slight problem with people who think they get to define what counts as a project for everyone else in the world. News flash: your opinion regarding worthiness of a project only applies to you and the projects you are considering pursuing.

News flash for you, my opinion had been formally and legally applied to other peoples too. I actually was in a position to decide what is and what is not good project.
Unlike your opinion it seems, which is only yours.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Who besides Richard Dawkins cares what Richard Dawkins thinks is weird? He's an 74 year old evolutionary biologist who probably needed help hooking up his DVD player. What makes him an authority on the kinds of electronic devices a 14 year old with an interest in robotics should build?

By me, who actually have a degree in this shit. By that university professor from youtube video, by countless engineers who commented on the news. By Marc Cuban, there is not that many people who agree with you.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Speaking of Dawkins, I would just like to add that even though he thought it was a hoax, he said that police and school staff still shouldn't have done what they did.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only way that Ahmed's faith is relevant is that it may have been a factor in the Principal and the cops' decision to be jackbooted assholes instead of thoughtful adults with the student's and school's best interests in mind.

At first I thought it was an overreaction and his faith had nothing to do with it.

Since then, though, I think it's much more likely this was a setup from the start, deliberately provoking a reaction to something that was not harmful in order to play innocent Muslim.

When you see CAIR involved in a situation they're probably on the wrong side.

 

[Arctish]

According to US law too.

Wrong. You have no idea what Probable Cause is in US law, as you have amply demonstrated in your many posts.

I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

I have a slight problem with people who think they get to define what counts as a project for everyone else in the world. News flash: your opinion regarding worthiness of a project only applies to you and the projects you are considering pursuing.

News flash for you, my opinion had been formally and legally applied to other peoples too. I actually was in a position to decide what is and what is not good project.
Unlike your opinion it seems, which is only yours.

Did your opinion apply to kids pursuing their interests at home? Did it apply to what might be worthy of a high school teacher's attention? Or did it only apply to projects undertaken by adults in university level and professional settings?

I hope it was the latter, because you'd be a lousy mentor for a 14 year old.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Who besides Richard Dawkins cares what Richard Dawkins thinks is weird? He's an 74 year old evolutionary biologist who probably needed help hooking up his DVD player. What makes him an authority on the kinds of electronic devices a 14 year old with an interest in robotics should build?

By me, who actually have a degree in this shit. By that university professor from youtube video, by countless engineers who commented on the news. By Marc Cuban, there is not that many people who agree with you.

Well, if your expertise exceeds Dawkins' (not unlikely considering his field of study isn't even remotely related to the subject) then why did you bring up Dawkins at all? You might as well have quoted Gordon Ramsay or Jimmy Choo. What does it matter what they think of Ahmed's clock, which they haven't seen and most likely don't have a clue how it works?

Even if I accept that you're some kind of expert in the field of electronics, I don't agree that case modding the clock was not a worthwhile endeavor for a kid at home or that it made no sense he wanted to show the result to his teacher. My first hand experience with kids in a robotics class informs me that the students who are truly interested in electronics do that sort of thing all the time. But, once again, perhaps things are different in your country. Maybe teenagers where you live keep their projects to themselves because they know someone like you is going to rip into them if their gadget isn't good enough to meet your lofty standards.