#IStandWithAhmed (or Inventing While Muslim is a thing?)

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

OMG, She's got a bomb!

Wait, it's not a bomb? How dare she try to trick us like that!

Bring her to the principal's office and make her sign a confession illegally with a promise she will not be expelled.

So you're going to try to argue that it doesn't quite look like she has a thumb on a red button? She does! Haven't you ever watched movies?

Remember, the Department of Homeland Securiturds said, "See something, say something." So that's exactly what we did. We were just doing our dooty.

Also, any arguments you have that this doesn't look like a hoax bomb are irrelevant. It's up to the police to detain her for 2 hours to find out if there is a broader explanation as to why she had her thumb on a red button. That she is part of a quiz just isn't good enough subjectively for them.

 

[Arctish]

"if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax"

If there's no actual hoax, and no evidence of an intent to hoax, then there's nothing to justify calling it a hoax, or an intended hoax.

Your argument boils down to "there's no evidence of a crime or intent to commit a crime, but that doesn't mean we can't simply accuse him of a crime and arrest him anyway."

The bomb-looking contraption he brought to school is the evidence, and the police were trying to figure out his intentions.

The pencil case clock is evidence he brought a pencil case clock to school. The police were trying to figure out his intentions, and found no evidence of criminal intent; without such evidence they had no reason to suppose his intentions were criminal. The device was a clock in a pencil case, and nothing he said or did would have caused anyone to think otherwise.

There was nothing to justify calling it a hoax bomb.

I'm sitting at my desk holding a container of stir-fry beef and mushrooms. It is possible for me to throw it at someone as part of a nasty prank. It's possible I have seriously considering doing it. But there's no evidence I brought in the container so I could assault someone, and no evidence I have an intent to commit assault. Does that mean I should be arrested for assault anyway? If the cops ask me why I brought in the container, and I say it's because I wanted to have stir-fry for dinner and I'm "not forthcoming" with other possible reasons, is that evidence I was planning an assault?

Bad example. Stir-fry beef and mushrooms in a standard plastic or cardboard container are a perfectly normal meal at a workplace environment. But if you brought, say, ripe tomatoes to a town hall meeting, then someone might suspect you were planning to throw them at someone rather than eat them.

No, it's a good example of something that could be used in a prank, but could also have been brought to school for a much more likely and benign reason. But let's go with tomatoes:

If I bring a bag of tomatoes to school, and my English teacher suspects I might be planning to throw them at the marching band, but I keep telling the Principal and the cops the tomatoes are my lunch and they find no evidence I intended to throw them, could I be arrested for "suspicion of menacing"? Should I be taken out in handcuffs because I was "not forthcoming" about other possible reasons for bringing tomatoes to school?

And without evidence a real, actual, genuine against-the-law crime had been committed, there was no Probable Cause to arrest him.

They had the device, which obviously looked like a bomb,

No, it did not obviously look like a bomb.

Ahmed's teachers disagreed. Your opinion is coloured by the fact that when you heard about the incident and first saw the pictures of it, you already knew what it was and why Ahmed did it.

I think you are forgetting his engineering teacher saw it before the English teacher or the Principal did, and found no reason to be alarmed.

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics, and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock - which it was - and never did anything to lead anyone to think otherwise.

 

[barbos]

I think you are forgetting his engineering teacher saw it before the English teacher or the Principal did, and found no reason to be alarmed.

Right, so much so that he told him not to show it to anybody because some might confuse it for a bomb.

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics,

I am familiar with electronics and it looks like a hoax or infrastructure for an actual bomb to me. Same with engineering teacher, same with university professor.

and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock

Oh, he said it was a clock, wow! If only we have listened to him, wow!
I mean, people never lie.

- which it was - and never did anything to lead people to think otherwise.

Right turning it on during class when he was specifically instructed not to show it to anybody?

 

[Arctish]

Right, so much so that he told him not to show it to anybody because some might confuse it for a bomb.

Did he tell him not to show it to others because

a) it looked like a bomb.
b) the other teachers wouldn't recognize a clock unless it looked just like the one on their bed stands
c) bringing electronics to class is against school rules
d) all of the above

Please document your answer.

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics,

I am familiar with electronics and it looks like a hoax or infrastructure for an actual bomb to me. Same with engineering teacher, same with university professor.

There is still no broad consensus that it looked like a bomb, but thanks for your input.

and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock

Oh, he said it was a clock, wow! If only we have listened to him, wow!
I mean, people never lie.

Oh, he said it was a clock, and he told other people it was a clock, and he showed it to a teacher who was in a position to know a clock when he saw one, but what the hell, let's pretend he tried to make someone somewhere think it was a bomb so we can arrest him!

Brilliant.

- which it was - and never did anything to lead people to think otherwise.

Right turning it on during class when he was specifically instructed not to show it to anybody?

Turning on a bomb makes it go *beep*?

Because if it doesn't, then turning his clock on in class and making it go *beep* is evidence Ahmed wasn't trying to make people think it was a bomb.

 

[barbos]

Did he tell him not to show it to others because

a) it looked like a bomb.
b) the other teachers wouldn't recognize a clock unless it looked just like the one on their bed stands
c) bringing electronics to class is against school rules
d) all of the above

Please document your answer.

No, you need to educate yourself in the topic you are so passionate about.

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics,

I am familiar with electronics and it looks like a hoax or infrastructure for an actual bomb to me. Same with engineering teacher, same with university professor.

There is still no broad consensus that it looked like a bomb, but thanks for your input.

There is a consensus among experts.

and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock

Oh, he said it was a clock, wow! If only we have listened to him, wow!
I mean, people never lie.

Oh, he said it was a clock, and he told other people it was a clock, and he showed it to a teacher who was in a position to know a clock when he saw one, but what the hell, let's pretend he tried to make someone somewhere think it was a bomb so we can arrest him!

Brilliant.

It was a hoax bomb

- which it was - and never did anything to lead people to think otherwise.

Right turning it on during class when he was specifically instructed not to show it to anybody?

Turning on a bomb makes it go *beep*?

He was directly explained why and instructed not to show it anybody, and he directly and intentionally disobeyed that order.

Because if it doesn't, then turning it on in class and making it go *beep* is evidence Ahmed wasn't trying to make people think his clock was a bomb.

Yes, it is a consensus of experts.

 

[Arctish]

No, you need to educate yourself in the topic you are so passionate about.

No, you need to stop making Ad Hominems and support your claims....

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics,

I am familiar with electronics and it looks like a hoax or infrastructure for an actual bomb to me. Same with engineering teacher, same with university professor.

There is still no broad consensus that it looked like a bomb, but thanks for your input.

There is a consensus among experts.

... and you can start by supporting this one. Who are these experts, how were they polled, and how large is the sample size?

and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock

Oh, he said it was a clock, wow! If only we have listened to him, wow!
I mean, people never lie.

Oh, he said it was a clock, and he told other people it was a clock, and he showed it to a teacher who was in a position to know a clock when he saw one, but what the hell, let's pretend he tried to make someone somewhere think it was a bomb so we can arrest him!

Brilliant.

It was a hoax bomb

Once you have supported your claim about the consensus among experts, you can provide supporting evidence for this one. Please be sure to refute the conclusion of the police who investigated the matter.

- which it was - and never did anything to lead people to think otherwise.

Right turning it on during class when he was specifically instructed not to show it to anybody?

Turning on a bomb makes it go *beep*?

He was directly explained why and instructed not to show it anybody, and he directly and intentionally disobeyed that order.

Because if it doesn't, then turning it on in class and making it go *beep* is evidence Ahmed wasn't trying to make people think his clock was a bomb.

Yes, it is a consensus of experts.

That bombs go *beep* when you turn them on?

BTW, you still haven't answered a question you've been asked at least 5 times now: what lie did he tell?

 

[barbos]

You are not addressing anything

 

[Arctish]

You are not addressing anything

I am addressing your habit of posting Ad Hominems instead of rational arguments, and your failure to provide evidence in support your claims despite having been repeatedly asked to do so.

Support your claim about the consensus among experts.

Support your claim the device was a hoax bomb.

Answer the question: what lie did he tell?

Or don't. It's your choice. But please be aware that if you fail to even try to provide evidence in support of your assertions people will come to believe you don't have any.

 

[angelo]

So it has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

Good. We're making progress.

What lie did he tell?

His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.

It's a standard police procedure, they had to handcuff him and if they had not they would have been disciplined.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

It was a hoax bomb.

This must be an article of faith, because it's being presented as fact without any evidence it exists.

"The follow-up investigation revealed the device apparently was a homemade experiment, and there's no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm" - Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd

No bomb, no hoax, no evidence to support the perception Ahmed intended to perpetrate a bomb hoax.

He told the teacher he built it when he did no such thing, for a start. Isn't that called lying?

No, it's called speaking the English language.

build

/bild/

verb

verb: build; 3rd person present: builds; past tense: built; past participle: built; gerund or present participle: building

1.

construct (something, typically something large) by putting parts or material together over a period of time.
"the factory was built in 1936"

synonyms: construct, erect, put up, assemble; More
make, form, create, fashion, model, shape

"they were building a tree house"


There's a place in Mexico where people say they build Dodge trucks. Are they lying?

Clockboy did neither of those descriptions! The Dodge is assembled from American made parts in Mexico. One can call that whatever they like.

 

[barbos]

I am reposting it

 

[Arctish]

He told the teacher he built it when he did no such thing, for a start. Isn't that called lying?

No, it's called speaking the English language.

build

/bild/

verb

verb: build; 3rd person present: builds; past tense: built; past participle: built; gerund or present participle: building

1.

construct (something, typically something large) by putting parts or material together over a period of time.
"the factory was built in 1936"

synonyms: construct, erect, put up, assemble; More
make, form, create, fashion, model, shape

"they were building a tree house"


There's a place in Mexico where people say they build Dodge trucks. Are they lying?

Clockboy did neither of those descriptions!

He didn't put parts or material together over a period of time?

The Dodge is assembled from American made parts in Mexico. One can call that whatever they like

They call it building Dodge trucks.

 

[angelo]

He told the teacher he built it when he did no such thing, for a start. Isn't that called lying?

No, it's called speaking the English language.

build

/bild/

verb

verb: build; 3rd person present: builds; past tense: built; past participle: built; gerund or present participle: building

1.

construct (something, typically something large) by putting parts or material together over a period of time.
"the factory was built in 1936"

synonyms: construct, erect, put up, assemble; More
make, form, create, fashion, model, shape

"they were building a tree house"


There's a place in Mexico where people say they build Dodge trucks. Are they lying?

Clockboy did neither of those descriptions!

He didn't put parts or material together over a period of time?

The Dodge is assembled from American made parts in Mexico. One can call that whatever they like

They call it building Dodge trucks.

I used to "build" Hi Fi speakers a decade or so ago. I used to go to the driver wholesaler, draw up a plan for the speaker box so as to compliment the Danish drivers. A friend would build a crossover for me after I went and bought the components, like resisters, ect. I would then take the measurements i wanted and the cut outs for the drivers to a cabinet maker who would build me the box to my specifications. Once the box was completed, I would carefully assemble all the parts inside and outside, like binding posts, and nine times out of ten I ended up with a high quality stereo speakers I would then sell to friends and strangers through word of mouth.
The point is. What was I, a box stuffer or a speaker builder? In all cases, it took certain skills, and a love of hi fi to do that. Clockbrat has done nothing like that, or is he ever able to!

 

[Arctish]

I used to "build" Hi Fi speakers a decade or so ago. I used to go to the driver wholesaler, draw up a plan for the speaker box so as to compliment the Danish drivers. A friend would build a crossover for me after I went and bought the components, like resisters, ect. I would then take the measurements i wanted and the cut outs for the drivers to a cabinet maker who would build me the box to my specifications. Once the box was completed, I would carefully assemble all the parts inside and outside, like binding posts, and nine times out of ten I ended up with a high quality stereo speakers I would then sell to friends and strangers through word of mouth.
The point is. What was I, a box stuffer or a speaker builder? In all cases, it took certain skills, and a love of hi fi to do that. Clockbrat has done nothing like that, or is he ever able to!

You built custom speakers. And it's really cool that you know how to do that.

I don't know if Ahmed is at your level of ability and knowledge, but I do know that he won't get there unless he tries doing custom electronics work himself. And I know that seeking his teacher's input is a good idea.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of his work with you, either. It's a sidetrack. It doesn't matter if his work is genius or lame. What matters is his being taken from his school in handcuffs for a not-hoax not-bomb.

 

[angelo]

I used to "build" Hi Fi speakers a decade or so ago. I used to go to the driver wholesaler, draw up a plan for the speaker box so as to compliment the Danish drivers. A friend would build a crossover for me after I went and bought the components, like resisters, ect. I would then take the measurements i wanted and the cut outs for the drivers to a cabinet maker who would build me the box to my specifications. Once the box was completed, I would carefully assemble all the parts inside and outside, like binding posts, and nine times out of ten I ended up with a high quality stereo speakers I would then sell to friends and strangers through word of mouth.
The point is. What was I, a box stuffer or a speaker builder? In all cases, it took certain skills, and a love of hi fi to do that. Clockbrat has done nothing like that, or is he ever able to!

You built custom speakers. And it's really cool that you know how to do that.

I don't know if Ahmed is at your level of ability and knowledge, but I do know that he won't get there unless he tries doing custom electronics work himself. And I know that seeking his teacher's input is a good idea.

Clockbrat wont
learn a thing if all he does is take the guts out of a clock then stuffs it into a pencil case, then expects kudos for it.

 

[Arctish]

You built custom speakers. And it's really cool that you know how to do that.

I don't know if Ahmed is at your level of ability and knowledge, but I do know that he won't get there unless he tries doing custom electronics work himself. And I know that seeking his teacher's input is a good idea.

Clockbrat wont
learn a thing if all he does is take the guts out of a clock then stuffs it into a pencil case, then expects kudos for it.

It doesn't matter if his work is genius or lame. What matters is his being taken from his school in handcuffs for a not-hoax not-bomb.

 

[RavenSky]

Notice how the prejorative term for Ahmed has changed from "clockboy" to"clockbrat"?

All from people who have never met the young man and don't know a thing about him?

It almost seems like they want to denigrate him to justify (in their own minds) the injustice of what happened to him.

I do have to say, the arguments put forth against Ahmed in this thread are among the most idiotic, irrational, emotion-based unsubstantiated assertions I have ever witnessed on this board. What is it about this boy that scares some of you so much?

 

[barbos]

I have seen his interviews, that's more than enough.
He is a liar. But I understand that some or even majority of people don't see it, because they really are blind to that.

 

[Nexus]

So all you need is Occam's Razor and common sense to blow your conspiracy theories out of the realm of probability. The same as most of the other conspiracy theories out there.

Occam's Razor is for theories about science of the natural world. The more simplified the better. This concept doesn't apply to people and their conspiracies.

 

[Jayjay]

I'm sitting at my desk holding a container of stir-fry beef and mushrooms. It is possible for me to throw it at someone as part of a nasty prank. It's possible I have seriously considering doing it. But there's no evidence I brought in the container so I could assault someone, and no evidence I have an intent to commit assault. Does that mean I should be arrested for assault anyway? If the cops ask me why I brought in the container, and I say it's because I wanted to have stir-fry for dinner and I'm "not forthcoming" with other possible reasons, is that evidence I was planning an assault?

Bad example. Stir-fry beef and mushrooms in a standard plastic or cardboard container are a perfectly normal meal at a workplace environment. But if you brought, say, ripe tomatoes to a town hall meeting, then someone might suspect you were planning to throw them at someone rather than eat them.

No, it's a good example of something that could be used in a prank, but could also have been brought to school for a much more likely and benign reason. But let's go with tomatoes:

If I bring a bag of tomatoes to school, and my English teacher suspects I might be planning to throw them at the marching band, but I keep telling the Principal and the cops the tomatoes are my lunch and they find no evidence I intended to throw them, could I be arrested for "suspicion of menacing"? Should I be taken out in handcuffs because I was "not forthcoming" about other possible reasons for bringing tomatoes to school?

Yep. Smartass kids who bring a bag of tomatoes to school pretending they are "lunch" are obviously not being honest. A short trip to the police station might scare them straight, and even if the tomatoes were lunch it's a minor mistake and there's no permanent harm done.

And without evidence a real, actual, genuine against-the-law crime had been committed, there was no Probable Cause to arrest him.

They had the device, which obviously looked like a bomb,

No, it did not obviously look like a bomb.

Ahmed's teachers disagreed. Your opinion is coloured by the fact that when you heard about the incident and first saw the pictures of it, you already knew what it was and why Ahmed did it.

I think you are forgetting his engineering teacher saw it before the English teacher or the Principal did, and found no reason to be alarmed.

His engineering teacher also said it looked like a bomb, according to Ahmed. Hence, "teachers" in plural.

There is no broad consensus that the clock looked like a bomb, only that it could have looked "suspicious" to someone unfamiliar with electronics, and that it was reasonable for the Principal and school resource officers to investigate. Their actions became unreasonable when the kid was arrested for having a "hoax bomb" even though Ahmed had been telling people the device was a clock - which it was - and never did anything to lead anyone to think otherwise.

What Ahmed should have explained is why he made the device. If someone brings a "clock" that looks like a bomb to school, the reasonable assumption is that he intended it to look like what it did, barring some alternative explanation.

 

[angelo]

Clockbrat wont
learn a thing if all he does is take the guts out of a clock then stuffs it into a pencil case, then expects kudos for it.

It doesn't matter if his work is genius or lame. What matters is his being taken from his school in handcuffs for a not-hoax not-bomb.

For the 100th time. The authorities did as they saw fit. Better be safe than sorry.