#IStandWithAhmed (or Inventing While Muslim is a thing?)

[barbos]

Wrong. You have no idea what Probable Cause is in US law, as you have amply demonstrated in your many posts.

It's not me, it's you.

I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

I have a slight problem with people who think they get to define what counts as a project for everyone else in the world. News flash: your opinion regarding worthiness of a project only applies to you and the projects you are considering pursuing.

News flash for you, my opinion had been formally and legally applied to other peoples too. I actually was in a position to decide what is and what is not good project.
Unlike your opinion it seems, which is only yours.

Did your opinion apply to kids pursuing their interests at home? Did it apply to what might be worthy of a high school teacher's attention? Or did it only apply to projects undertaken by adults in university level and professional settings?

I hope it was the latter, because you'd be a lousy mentor for a 14 year old.

There are thousands and thousands of 14 year olds who say "What the fuck!?" to this clockboy project.
And what is lousy is to tell them that their projects are as good as ahmed clock.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Who besides Richard Dawkins cares what Richard Dawkins thinks is weird? He's an 74 year old evolutionary biologist who probably needed help hooking up his DVD player. What makes him an authority on the kinds of electronic devices a 14 year old with an interest in robotics should build?

By me, who actually have a degree in this shit. By that university professor from youtube video, by countless engineers who commented on the news. By Marc Cuban, there is not that many people who agree with you.

Well, if your expertise exceeds Dawkins' (not unlikely considering his field of study isn't even remotely related to the subject) then why did you bring up Dawkins at all? You might as well have quoted Gordon Ramsay or Jimmy Choo. What does it matter what they think of Ahmed's clock, which they haven't seen and most likely don't have a clue how it works?

I brooght him up because he brought up good point.

Even if I accept that you're some kind of expert in the field of electronics, I don't agree that case modding the clock was not a worthwhile endeavor

Case modding theory is your invention, ahmed himself never mentioned it and even if we assume that it was the case then it's pretty crappy modding.

for a kid at home or that it made no sense he wanted to show the result to his teacher.

Again, that's merely his words.

My first hand experience with kids in a robotics class

I thought it was case modding class?

informs me that the students who are truly interested in electronics do that sort of thing all the time. But, once again, perhaps things are different in your country. Maybe teenagers where you live keep their projects to themselves because they know someone like you is going to rip into them if their gadget isn't good enough to meet your lofty standards.

Why do you keep bringing my country? I was judging projects of american kids.

 

[barbos]

The only way that Ahmed's faith is relevant is that it may have been a factor in the Principal and the cops' decision to be jackbooted assholes instead of thoughtful adults with the student's and school's best interests in mind.

At first I thought it was an overreaction and his faith had nothing to do with it.

Since then, though, I think it's much more likely this was a setup from the start, deliberately provoking a reaction to something that was not harmful in order to play innocent Muslim.

When you see CAIR involved in a situation they're probably on the wrong side.

Same here.

 

[zorq]

At first I thought it was an overreaction and his faith had nothing to do with it.

Since then, though, I think it's much more likely this was a setup from the start, deliberately provoking a reaction to something that was not harmful in order to play innocent Muslim.

When you see CAIR involved in a situation they're probably on the wrong side.

Same here.

You see, a bizarre and carefully concocted homegrown conspiracy plot (which may happen once in a blue moon) is far more unlikely than childish goofing around. (which happens with every single child almost all the time) So all you need is Occam's Razor and common sense to blow your conspiracy theories out of the realm of probability. The same as most of the other conspiracy theories out there.

 

[Arctish]

It's not me, it's you.

I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

I have a slight problem with people who think they get to define what counts as a project for everyone else in the world. News flash: your opinion regarding worthiness of a project only applies to you and the projects you are considering pursuing.

News flash for you, my opinion had been formally and legally applied to other peoples too. I actually was in a position to decide what is and what is not good project.
Unlike your opinion it seems, which is only yours.

Did your opinion apply to kids pursuing their interests at home? Did it apply to what might be worthy of a high school teacher's attention? Or did it only apply to projects undertaken by adults in university level and professional settings?

I hope it was the latter, because you'd be a lousy mentor for a 14 year old.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Who besides Richard Dawkins cares what Richard Dawkins thinks is weird? He's an 74 year old evolutionary biologist who probably needed help hooking up his DVD player. What makes him an authority on the kinds of electronic devices a 14 year old with an interest in robotics should build?

By me, who actually have a degree in this shit. By that university professor from youtube video, by countless engineers who commented on the news. By Marc Cuban, there is not that many people who agree with you.

Well, if your expertise exceeds Dawkins' (not unlikely considering his field of study isn't even remotely related to the subject) then why did you bring up Dawkins at all? You might as well have quoted Gordon Ramsay or Jimmy Choo. What does it matter what they think of Ahmed's clock, which they haven't seen and most likely don't have a clue how it works?

I brooght him up because he brought up good point.

Even if I accept that you're some kind of expert in the field of electronics, I don't agree that case modding the clock was not a worthwhile endeavor

Case modding theory is your invention, ahmed himself never mentioned it and even if we assume that it was the case then it's pretty crappy modding.

for a kid at home or that it made no sense he wanted to show the result to his teacher.

Again, that's merely his words.

Supported by his actions before the English teacher, the Principal, and the police became involved.

My first hand experience with kids in a robotics class

I thought it was case modding class?

No, I said my husband did case modding, and my kid took the robotics class, although my husband took one, too.

I didn't say, but will say now that our friend's kid has a full ride scholarship to MIT. He's into robotics, and guess what? His dad's garage is full of gizmos, case modded electronics, and other little "projects" he did at home, many of which he brought to school to show his teacher (the small ones, at least). And it doesn't matter what you think of them. What matters is that his teachers and school Principal didn't freak out when he brought in items they didn't immediately recognize, or assume he had nefarious plans just because someone somewhere might have thought one of them looked like a movie prop. He learned a lot about electronics by working on his own with various parts and pieces, and that in itself was worthwhile.

informs me that the students who are truly interested in electronics do that sort of thing all the time. But, once again, perhaps things are different in your country. Maybe teenagers where you live keep their projects to themselves because they know someone like you is going to rip into them if their gadget isn't good enough to meet your lofty standards.

Why do you keep bringing my country? I was judging projects of american kids.

I keep bringing it up because the police actions you advocate are not allowed under US law, and the school environment you expect isn't typical in this country, which leads me to believe much of our dispute is grounded in cultural differences.

 

[Arctish]

There are thousands and thousands of 14 year olds who say "What the fuck!?" to this clockboy project.
And what is lousy is to tell them that their projects are as good as ahmed clock.

I saw you added this after I quoted your post so I will respond to it here.

This is not about the design and construction of Ahmed's clock, or comparing the quality of his work to that of other kids, or how much money he 'deserves', or any other bullshit sidetrack.

It doesn't matter if you think his work is poor. It doesn't matter if every expert in the world agrees with you. Heck, it doesn't matter if his engineering teacher agrees with you. What matters is he had a clock. His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.


I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

 

[barbos]

There are thousands and thousands of 14 year olds who say "What the fuck!?" to this clockboy project.
And what is lousy is to tell them that their projects are as good as ahmed clock.

I saw you added this after I quoted your post so I will respond to it here.

This is not about the design and construction of Ahmed's clock, or comparing the quality of his work to that of other kids, or how much money he 'deserves', or any other bullshit sidetrack.

It doesn't matter if you think his work is poor. It doesn't matter if every expert in the world agrees with you. Heck, it doesn't matter if his engineering teacher agrees with you. What matters is he had a clock.

It matters because media and that little punk lied about it.

His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.

It's a standard police procedure, they had to handcuff him and if they had not they would have been disciplined.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

It was a hoax bomb.

 

[barbos]

I keep bringing it up because the police actions you advocate are not allowed under US law, and the school environment you expect isn't typical in this country, which leads me to believe much of our dispute is grounded in cultural differences.

You have no clue whatsoever.

 

[barbos]

Same here.

You see, a bizarre and carefully concocted homegrown conspiracy plot (which may happen once in a blue moon) is far more unlikely than childish goofing around. (which happens with every single child almost all the time) So all you need is Occam's Razor and common sense to blow your conspiracy theories out of the realm of probability. The same as most of the other conspiracy theories out there.

Your theory does not fit known facts well, such as: his asshole father, his asshole sister, himself being an asshole, his lying, now this $15mil lawsuit, and finally that happening the next day after 9-11 anniversary. There is way too many coincidences.

 

[Arctish]

I saw you added this after I quoted your post so I will respond to it here.

This is not about the design and construction of Ahmed's clock, or comparing the quality of his work to that of other kids, or how much money he 'deserves', or any other bullshit sidetrack.

It doesn't matter if you think his work is poor. It doesn't matter if every expert in the world agrees with you. Heck, it doesn't matter if his engineering teacher agrees with you. What matters is he had a clock.

It matters because media and that little punk lied about it.

So it has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

Good. We're making progress.

What lie did he tell?

His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.

It's a standard police procedure, they had to handcuff him and if they had not they would have been disciplined.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

It was a hoax bomb.

This must be an article of faith, because it's being presented as fact without any evidence it exists.

"The follow-up investigation revealed the device apparently was a homemade experiment, and there's no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm" - Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd

No bomb, no hoax, no evidence to support the perception Ahmed intended to perpetrate a bomb hoax.

 

[barbos]

This must be an article of faith, because it's being presented as fact without any evidence it exists.

"The follow-up investigation revealed the device apparently was a homemade experiment, and there's no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm" - Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd

No bomb, no hoax, no evidence to support the perception Ahmed intended to perpetrate a bomb hoax.

Oh, now you believe police?
What's next? O.J Simpson did not kill his wife?

 

[angelo]

It matters because media and that little punk lied about it.

So it has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

Good. We're making progress.

What lie did he tell?

His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.

It's a standard police procedure, they had to handcuff him and if they had not they would have been disciplined.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

It was a hoax bomb.

This must be an article of faith, because it's being presented as fact without any evidence it exists.

"The follow-up investigation revealed the device apparently was a homemade experiment, and there's no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm" - Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd

No bomb, no hoax, no evidence to support the perception Ahmed intended to perpetrate a bomb hoax.

He told the teacher he built it when he did no such thing, for a start. Isn't that called lying?

 

[ZiprHead]

School and Police reaction was absolutely correct. I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Hmmm. Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. I don't think child psychology is in his academic realm. I don't see why his opinion is worth anymore than yours.

 

[Jayjay]

None of these are applicable to Ahmed. He was not arrested for a non-crime, he was arrested for suspected crime.

No, he was arrested because they thought he might have been thinking about committing a crime at some point in the future. But even if he had been thinking about it, merely thinking about it isn't a crime!

In case of a "hoax bomb", per legal definition, it is a crime if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax. Of course intent would be much easier to prove if an actual hoax took place, but that is not strictly necessary.

And without evidence a real, actual, genuine against-the-law crime had been committed, there was no Probable Cause to arrest him.

They had the device, which obviously looked like a bomb, and if Ahmed could not explain why he made it I think that would constitute a probable cause. That being said, the cops here are on much shakier ground that the school, and as it seems that they escalated the decision up in the chain of command which indicates it wasn't an obvious cause. Personally I don't mind cops erring on the side of caution, especially with kids, but it hinges on what actually happened (which is not yet public information) and whether there are precedents.

 

[Arctish]

So it has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

Good. We're making progress.

What lie did he tell?

His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.

It's a standard police procedure, they had to handcuff him and if they had not they would have been disciplined.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

It was a hoax bomb.

This must be an article of faith, because it's being presented as fact without any evidence it exists.

"The follow-up investigation revealed the device apparently was a homemade experiment, and there's no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm" - Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd

No bomb, no hoax, no evidence to support the perception Ahmed intended to perpetrate a bomb hoax.

He told the teacher he built it when he did no such thing, for a start. Isn't that called lying?

No, it's called speaking the English language.

build

/bild/

verb

verb: build; 3rd person present: builds; past tense: built; past participle: built; gerund or present participle: building

1.

construct (something, typically something large) by putting parts or material together over a period of time.
"the factory was built in 1936"

synonyms: construct, erect, put up, assemble; More
make, form, create, fashion, model, shape

"they were building a tree house"


There's a place in Mexico where people say they build Dodge trucks. Are they lying?

 

[RavenSky]

There are thousands and thousands of 14 year olds who say "What the fuck!?" to this clockboy project.
And what is lousy is to tell them that their projects are as good as ahmed clock.

I saw you added this after I quoted your post so I will respond to it here.

This is not about the design and construction of Ahmed's clock, or comparing the quality of his work to that of other kids, or how much money he 'deserves', or any other bullshit sidetrack.

It doesn't matter if you think his work is poor. It doesn't matter if every expert in the world agrees with you. Heck, it doesn't matter if his engineering teacher agrees with you. What matters is he had a clock. His never tried to convince, persuade, or trick anybody into thinking it was anything but a clock. There was no hoax, no attempt to hoax, no actions taken in the furtherance of a hoax. There was no bomb, no hoax bomb, and no bomb hoax. It was a fucking clock in a pencil case that he had already shown to his teacher before the shit hit the fan.

He should not have been taken out of school in handcuffs. But he was. That is the issue.


I'm not going to discuss the quality of the work with you anymore. It's a sidetrack, and shame on me for following it this long. Feel free to call it garbage to your heart's content. It doesn't matter. It's not the real issue.

^^^ That sums everything up in one post.

 

[Arctish]

No, he was arrested because they thought he might have been thinking about committing a crime at some point in the future. But even if he had been thinking about it, merely thinking about it isn't a crime!

In case of a "hoax bomb", per legal definition, it is a crime if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax. Of course intent would be much easier to prove if an actual hoax took place, but that is not strictly necessary.

"if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax"

If there's no actual hoax, and no evidence of an intent to hoax, then there's nothing to justify calling it a hoax, or an intended hoax.

Your argument boils down to "there's no evidence of a crime or intent to commit a crime, but that doesn't mean we can't simply accuse him of a crime and arrest him anyway."

I'm sitting at my desk holding a container of stir-fry beef and mushrooms. It is possible for me to throw it at someone as part of a nasty prank. It's possible I have seriously considering doing it. But there's no evidence I brought in the container so I could assault someone, and no evidence I have an intent to commit assault. Does that mean I should be arrested for assault anyway? If the cops ask me why I brought in the container, and I say it's because I wanted to have stir-fry for dinner and I'm "not forthcoming" with other possible reasons, is that evidence I was planning an assault?

And without evidence a real, actual, genuine against-the-law crime had been committed, there was no Probable Cause to arrest him.

They had the device, which obviously looked like a bomb,

No, it did not obviously look like a bomb.

If it had, the school would have been evacuated. The engineering teacher would have been suspended or fired for allowing a student to walk out of his class with something that obviously looked like a bomb. The cops and the Principal wouldn't have sat there with the thing in the same room while they decided what to do about it.

It obviously looked unfamiliar, and the English teacher apparently thought it looked somewhat bomb-like, but not enough like an actual bomb for anyone to act as thought it really was a bomb.

and if Ahmed could not explain why he made it I think that would constitute a probable cause.

But since he was able to explain why he made it, that should have been the end of it.

That being said, the cops here are on much shakier ground that the school, and as it seems that they escalated the decision up in the chain of command which indicates it wasn't an obvious cause. Personally I don't mind cops erring on the side of caution, especially with kids, but it hinges on what actually happened (which is not yet public information) and whether there are precedents.

I agree.

 

[barbos]

School and Police reaction was absolutely correct. I have a slight problem with engineering teacher who let such crappy "projects" to be counted as projects. I know ahmed is still a kid but he is old enough to be told the truth that his projects are garbage.

And Richard Dawkins is absolutely correct, this "project" is utterly weird even for a kid.

Hmmm. Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. I don't think child psychology is in his academic realm. I don't see why his opinion is worth anymore than yours.

How convenient.

 

[thebeave]

Looks like the Feds are launching an investigation into this incident. Maybe we'll finally find out what really went down that day:

http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/12/u-s-attorney-general-justice-department-investigating-treatment-of-ahmed-mohamed.html/

The Department of Justice has launched a civil rights investigation into charges of harassment and possible religious discrimination in the school district where 14-year-old Ahmed Mohamed was handcuffed after bringing a clock to school in September.

“We have, as you may know, opened an investigation into the case of the young man in Irving, Texas,” U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said Thursday evening during a televised interview with a Muslim advocacy group. “So we will see where that investigation goes.”

 

[Jayjay]

In case of a "hoax bomb", per legal definition, it is a crime if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax. Of course intent would be much easier to prove if an actual hoax took place, but that is not strictly necessary.

"if he is in a possession of a device and has an intent to perpetrate a hoax"

If there's no actual hoax, and no evidence of an intent to hoax, then there's nothing to justify calling it a hoax, or an intended hoax.

Your argument boils down to "there's no evidence of a crime or intent to commit a crime, but that doesn't mean we can't simply accuse him of a crime and arrest him anyway."

The bomb-looking contraption he brought to school is the evidence, and the police were trying to figure out his intentions.

I'm sitting at my desk holding a container of stir-fry beef and mushrooms. It is possible for me to throw it at someone as part of a nasty prank. It's possible I have seriously considering doing it. But there's no evidence I brought in the container so I could assault someone, and no evidence I have an intent to commit assault. Does that mean I should be arrested for assault anyway? If the cops ask me why I brought in the container, and I say it's because I wanted to have stir-fry for dinner and I'm "not forthcoming" with other possible reasons, is that evidence I was planning an assault?

Bad example. Stir-fry beef and mushrooms in a standard plastic or cardboard container are a perfectly normal meal at a workplace environment. But if you brought, say, ripe tomatoes to a town hall meeting, then someone might suspect you were planning to throw them at someone rather than eat them.

And without evidence a real, actual, genuine against-the-law crime had been committed, there was no Probable Cause to arrest him.

They had the device, which obviously looked like a bomb,

No, it did not obviously look like a bomb.

Ahmed's teachers disagreed. Your opinion is coloured by the fact that when you heard about the incident and first saw the pictures of it, you already knew what it was and why Ahmed did it.

and if Ahmed could not explain why he made it I think that would constitute a probable cause.

But since he was able to explain why he made it, that should have been the end of it.

How do you know he was able to explain it? Were you there? Have you read the police reports? Interviewed the teachers? No, you have not. You are merely taking Ahmed's father's and their family lawyer's side of the story at face value and even twisting the story to fit that narrative where it doesn't match.

Looking at how Ahmed explains the events in the media, where he has had plenty of time to prepare and think about the event, and still has a hard time making a coherent story, it's not unreasonable to assume that under the circumstances he could have just shut down and not explain himself very thoroughly.

 

[thebeave]

There's also this. Looks like the Muslim class valedictorian last year at Ahmed's high school has nothing but positive things to say about the school (MacArthur High School) and its acceptance of her faith. This kind of throws cold water on the unsubstantiated claims from the race baiters around here that Ahmed's school and its staff are just a bunch of racists and Islamaphobes. There's a good, long video in this article where the Muslim girl is being interviewed. Definitely worth a watch.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/12/04/ahmed-clock-kid-mohameds-family-is-demanding-millions-from-city-school-district-over-islamophobia-listen-to-what-muslim-valedictorian-has-to-say/

What isn’t well known is the story of Amena Jamali, an 18-year-old who also attended MacArthur High School in Irving. Last year’s valedictorian, Jamali has nothing but good things to say about her experience as a Muslim at the same school Mohamed attended.

Not that she wasn’t nervous as a freshman walking the halls for the first time dressed in traditional Muslim garb.

“This sort of uncertainty, ‘Do I really belong in this country after everything that’s happened?’” Jamali explained to KDFW-TV. ”But Mac really put it into me that no matter what other people think, I do belong here … I am an American, and I’m proud to be one.”

Jamali told KDFW a number of other Muslims attended MacArthur with her and none of them complained about poor treatment.