January 6 Hearings Live

[Toni]

Drag its feet?

Not hardly. Things in DC do not move fast. At all.

The Watergate scandal took over 2 years to investigate—impeachment proceedings took nearly 2 years! It ended as quickly as it did only because as despicable as Nixon was, he had a great deal more honor than Trump. Not to mention, mental competence.

What you mean is that the Watergate scandal took only 2 years for 40 government officials to be indicted and some of those jailed and the president himself to resign in disgrace. There were consequences back then. The Trump scandals started with the head of the FBI being booted from office for failing to end the Russia investigation. The Mueller report identified prosecutable crimes and made clear that the president was indictable after leaving office. The January 6 riot was the first attempt by a sitting president to overthrow our government, but it wasn't the first time that Trump engaged in prosecutable crimes. Maybe there will be charges now, but what about the other crimes? Frankly, I don't see the sudden interest of the DoJ any more than trying to look busy while buying time to for more handwringing and dithering.

Well, he’s been impeached twice. Unfortunately, people voted along political lines.

DOJ was fairly hamstrung while Trump was in power—and he obviously had and still has minions there.

All of these investigations are meticulously thorough and actual testimony is being made public. Those who are not cooperating have been called out today. If evidence is not meticulously, scrupulously gathered and presented, recorded and made public.

Speed is not our friend. If this work is hurried, we risk not making an irrefutable case—and we need this to be irrefutable. We know for certain that there are people who don’t/won’t believe the testimony and there are those who support Trump regardless of the veracity of testimony. If the people do not support charges and support convictions-none of this will matter.

Yes, the works is different than it once was, only 50 years ago.

 

[Artemus]

A true patriot testified today.

Yes, a courageous but oblivious one.

Unfortunately the poor woman will have to join the witness protection program now.

I hope that works out for her

,

As an American, I was disgusted. It was unpatriotic, it was un-American. We were watching the Capitol building get defaced over a lie.

She lamented the loss of reputation for “all the good things he had done”.
IMO the best thing he ever did was to throw his food at the wall. At least that can be cleaned up.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree strongly with her politics. But when she was direct witness to crimes being committed against the country by her superiors, she stood up and spoke despite it clearly being the end of her career. That is true patriotism.

As for Meadows, well, words fail me.

 

[Copernicus]

...Well, he’s been impeached twice. Unfortunately, people voted along political lines.

DOJ was fairly hamstrung while Trump was in power—and he obviously had and still has minions there.

All of these investigations are meticulously thorough and actual testimony is being made public. Those who are not cooperating have been called out today. If evidence is not meticulously, scrupulously gathered and presented, recorded and made public.

Speed is not our friend. If this work is hurried, we risk not making an irrefutable case—and we need this to be irrefutable. We know for certain that there are people who don’t/won’t believe the testimony and there are those who support Trump regardless of the veracity of testimony. If the people do not support charges and support convictions-none of this will matter.

Yes, the works is different than it once was, only 50 years ago.

You see meticulous evidence-gathering. I see dithering and lack of will. Hence the need for public pressure. Without it, inertia becomes the precedent. Running out the clock has always been one of Trump's specialties when dealing with investigations and litigation. Ask the Mueller investigators.

 

[Toni]

...Well, he’s been impeached twice. Unfortunately, people voted along political lines.

DOJ was fairly hamstrung while Trump was in power—and he obviously had and still has minions there.

All of these investigations are meticulously thorough and actual testimony is being made public. Those who are not cooperating have been called out today. If evidence is not meticulously, scrupulously gathered and presented, recorded and made public.

Speed is not our friend. If this work is hurried, we risk not making an irrefutable case—and we need this to be irrefutable. We know for certain that there are people who don’t/won’t believe the testimony and there are those who support Trump regardless of the veracity of testimony. If the people do not support charges and support convictions-none of this will matter.

Yes, the works is different than it once was, only 50 years ago.

You see meticulous evidence-gathering. I see dithering and lack of will. Hence the need for public pressure. Without it, inertia becomes the precedent. Running out the clock has always been one of Trump's specialties when dealing with investigations and litigation. Ask the Mueller investigators.

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

A source from the January 6 committee claims the committee has over a thousand text messages involving Mark Meadows. And apparently future hearings will involve the "War Room" activities. Meadows seems to be claiming executive privledge over his text messages prior to the insurrection attempt.

 

[Copernicus]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

 

[Elixir]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

Timing is everything. I expect whatever indictments/charges are coming, to be filed by the end of September. If nothing happens by then, I’ll have to go with Copernicus’ take.
The pace going forward after November depends on whether the fascists gain control of Congress. If they win in November, the investigation will stop in January so it will get frenetic for those intervening months.
If Dems gain enough to kill the filibuster - even for limited applications, there will be legislation enacted to forestall another Trump coup attempt, codify RvW and undo a lot of the other damage done by Dolt45.

In either scenario, DOJ has 2 years to wrap it up and send all to jail who’s going to jail.

If we stay at a 50/50 Senate, that’s probably the worst possible outcome for democracy. We might have to hire Russian mercenaries to “de-nazify” the US.

 

[Toni]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

Timing is everything. I expect whatever indictments/charges are coming, to be filed by the end of September. If nothing happens by then, I’ll have to go with Copernicus’ take.
The pace going forward after November depends on whether the fascists gain control of Congress. If they win in November, the investigation will stop in January so it will get frenetic for those intervening months.
If Dems gain enough to kill the filibuster - even for limited applications, there will be legislation enacted to forestall another Trump coup attempt, codify RvW and undo a lot of the other damage done by Dolt45.

In either scenario, DOJ has 2 years to wrap it up and send all to jail who’s going to jail.

If we stay at a 50/50 Senate, that’s probably the worst possible outcome for democracy. We might have to hire Russian mercenaries to “de-nazify” the US.

Oh, it would be far worse to lose Senate seats than to stay 50/50, even with two Dems not really Dems.

 

[Elixir]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

Timing is everything. I expect whatever indictments/charges are coming, to be filed by the end of September. If nothing happens by then, I’ll have to go with Copernicus’ take.
The pace going forward after November depends on whether the fascists gain control of Congress. If they win in November, the investigation will stop in January so it will get frenetic for those intervening months.
If Dems gain enough to kill the filibuster - even for limited applications, there will be legislation enacted to forestall another Trump coup attempt, codify RvW and undo a lot of the other damage done by Dolt45.

In either scenario, DOJ has 2 years to wrap it up and send all to jail who’s going to jail.

If we stay at a 50/50 Senate, that’s probably the worst possible outcome for democracy. We might have to hire Russian mercenaries to “de-nazify” the US.

Oh, it would be far worse to lose Senate seats than to stay 50/50, even with two Dems not really Dems.

Not sure at all about that. What could they do? Certainly not pass any legislation. Maybe launch some farce “investigations” into Hunter Biden or something, but they would become culpable for the entire country’s dissatisfaction in 2024.
At the current config, nothing gets done but Dems get the blame.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

But you have to at least see the difference between Trump not fearing prosecution from people who he could replace vs. fearing prosecution now. Bringing up Barr and Mueller is irrelevant - they both worked for Trump. Establishing: 1) There was no 'fraudulent election'; 2) You lost fair and square; 3) You knew these but could not come to grips with them; 4) You incited a riot (at the very least) on the capital to overturn the election results; 5) You persist with these lies today. It takes a very long time to connect these dots, particularly for people who cannot count.

If we achieve nothing more than pushing the right back to the center and ensuring that Trump and no one like him successfully runs for office again, these hearings will have been worth it.

aa

 

[Toni]

The stakes are too high to be sloppy or fast.

I'm not asking for either, and they've already proven that they can be slow. Justice doesn't need to be rushed, but sloppiness is allowing the public to see criminal behavior by high officials go unpunished for years. That's part of the process of  democratic backsliding, aka autocratization. Trump feared prosecution. That's part of the reason for his coup attempt. He might not have bothered, if he had realized how easy things would be for him after his fall from power.

Timing is everything. I expect whatever indictments/charges are coming, to be filed by the end of September. If nothing happens by then, I’ll have to go with Copernicus’ take.
The pace going forward after November depends on whether the fascists gain control of Congress. If they win in November, the investigation will stop in January so it will get frenetic for those intervening months.
If Dems gain enough to kill the filibuster - even for limited applications, there will be legislation enacted to forestall another Trump coup attempt, codify RvW and undo a lot of the other damage done by Dolt45.

In either scenario, DOJ has 2 years to wrap it up and send all to jail who’s going to jail.

If we stay at a 50/50 Senate, that’s probably the worst possible outcome for democracy. We might have to hire Russian mercenaries to “de-nazify” the US.

Oh, it would be far worse to lose Senate seats than to stay 50/50, even with two Dems not really Dems.

Not sure at all about that. What could they do? Certainly not pass any legislation. Maybe launch some farce “investigations” into Hunter Biden or something, but they would become culpable for the entire country’s dissatisfaction in 2024.
At the current config, nothing gets done but Dems get the blame.

More appointed judges, more jerrymanderimg. We could lose the country entirely to a kleptocracy/oligarchy. That was Trump’s aim, so much as he could be said to have any aim ( after elected by surprise) other than self aggrandizement. It certainly is the motivation of nearly all his backers—or those with money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not sure at all about that. What could they do? Certainly not pass any legislation. Maybe launch some farce “investigations” into Hunter Biden or something, but they would become culpable for the entire country’s dissatisfaction in 2024.
At the current config, nothing gets done but Dems get the blame.

51 votes, they'll nuke the filibuster.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Elixir]

Not sure at all about that. What could they do? Certainly not pass any legislation. Maybe launch some farce “investigations” into Hunter Biden or something, but they would become culpable for the entire country’s dissatisfaction in 2024.
At the current config, nothing gets done but Dems get the blame.

51 votes, they'll nuke the filibuster.

You mean the Repugs? Yes, they would. And appoint more judges, launch lots of time-wasting investigations, lower taxes on the rich, rescind more rights of privacy etc.
then they’ll have to pay the piper, because they won’t have the USSS, the DOJ, FBI, NSA et al at their disposal in 2024. A last chance for Dems to cowboy up.

If after November things stay as they are now, dems will lose everything in’24.

 

[Copernicus]

Among the most damning testimony by Cassidy Hutchinson was the revelation that Trump knew his rally attendees were armed. They had set up magnetometers for people to enter the rally area, and they were confiscating guns, metal batons, brass knuckles, cans of bear spray, etc. So a large group of his supporters refused to go through "the mags", as they called them. Trump got mad that so many weren't coming in, so he tried to order the magnetometers removed, saying that they were not there to harm HIM. After being told of the weapons, he still urged them to march on the capitol and "fight like hell". Later, he became enraged at the head of his Secret Service detail physically stopping him from grabbing the steering wheel of the limo and then assaulted the driver by trying to grab his collar bones. After being forcibly driven to the White House, he still tried to leave on foot to go the the Capitol mall. He really wanted a riot, and he wanted to egg the mob on personally.

 

[Artemus]

Later, he became enraged at the head of his Secret Service detail physically stopping him from grabbing the steering wheel of the limo and then assaulted the driver by trying to grab his collar bones. After being forcibly driven to the White House, he still tried to leave on foot to go the the Capitol mall. He really wanted a riot, and he wanted to egg the mob on personally.

The steering wheel grab and assault are several levels of hearsay and wouldn't be admissible in court. A number of credible reports say that the secret service agents involved are preparing to testify under oath that it didn't happen. Which is a pity because if it wasn't true then the trumpies will use that to try to discredit her entire testimony, most of which was first-person and admissible.

 

[Copernicus]

Later, he became enraged at the head of his Secret Service detail physically stopping him from grabbing the steering wheel of the limo and then assaulted the driver by trying to grab his collar bones. After being forcibly driven to the White House, he still tried to leave on foot to go the the Capitol mall. He really wanted a riot, and he wanted to egg the mob on personally.

The steering wheel grab and assault are several levels of hearsay and wouldn't be admissible in court. A number of credible reports say that the secret service agents involved are preparing to testify under oath that it didn't happen. Which is a pity because if it wasn't true then the trumpies will use that to try to discredit her entire testimony, most of which was first-person and admissible.

Let's wait for the testimony by Secret Service agents before treating it as anything more significant than a rumor on the internet. That's really premature. We have testimony under oath from someone who actually talked to people with direct knowledge, one of whom was the head of the security detail in the limo. The other testimony sounds more like hearsay, but it would be great to get it recorded under oath. Like the testimony we saw today. I'm guessing that you did not actually listen to Hutchinson's testimony, since you thought it was "several levels of hearsay". You can actually find her testimony online, and I urge you to listen to it. My wife says that the president lunged at the driver, but went for the collar bones of Engel, the head of the security detail at the time. It isn't clear to me whose collar bones were being targeted, but it would be nice to hear from Engel and Pat Cipollone for corroboration or disagreement. Right now, Cipollone is refusing to testify, and a lot of people are pleading the fifth. Mark Meadows himself even asked for a pardon.

 

[marc]

I went through those mags for an event in DC once. It was set off by a pack of gum in my pocket. Very sensitive

 

[Ford]

Later, he became enraged at the head of his Secret Service detail physically stopping him from grabbing the steering wheel of the limo and then assaulted the driver by trying to grab his collar bones. After being forcibly driven to the White House, he still tried to leave on foot to go the the Capitol mall. He really wanted a riot, and he wanted to egg the mob on personally.

The steering wheel grab and assault are several levels of hearsay and wouldn't be admissible in court. A number of credible reports say that the secret service agents involved are preparing to testify under oath that it didn't happen. Which is a pity because if it wasn't true then the trumpies will use that to try to discredit her entire testimony, most of which was first-person and admissible.

Let's wait for the testimony by Secret Service agents before treating it as anything more significant than a rumor on the internet. That's really premature. We have testimony under oath from someone who actually talked to people with direct knowledge, one of whom was the head of the security detail in the limo. The other testimony sounds more like hearsay, but it would be great to get it recorded under oath. Like the testimony we saw today. I'm guessing that you did not actually listen to Hutchinson's testimony, since you thought it was "several levels of hearsay". You can actually find her testimony online, and I urge you to listen to it. My wife says that the president lunged at the driver, but went for the collar bones of Engel, the head of the security detail at the time. It isn't clear to me whose collar bones were being targeted, but it would be nice to hear from Engel and Pat Cipollone for corroboration or disagreement. Right now, Cipollone is refusing to testify, and a lot of people are pleading the fifth. Mark Meadows himself even asked for a pardon.

So "trust, but verify."

I wonder aloud if this testimony is a preview of things to come. As the committee continues to show their cards, more and more former members of the administration may rethink their reluctance to tell the committee what they saw and what they know. People like Flynn and Eastman are taking the 5th, while staffers - who have a lot of inside information but don't have a legal defense fund - are starting to realize they may be in legal jeopardy and are trying to get out ahead of it. How many other assistants and second tier people are going to come out of the woodwork and say "actually, I'm going to testify after all...."?

The true believers and inner circle might not turn on Trump, but the folks who were just there to get "White House" on their resume' have to weigh how much their loyalty will be repaid. And they have to know that Trump does not know the meaning of the word "repaid."

 

[Artemus]

Later, he became enraged at the head of his Secret Service detail physically stopping him from grabbing the steering wheel of the limo and then assaulted the driver by trying to grab his collar bones. After being forcibly driven to the White House, he still tried to leave on foot to go the the Capitol mall. He really wanted a riot, and he wanted to egg the mob on personally.

The steering wheel grab and assault are several levels of hearsay and wouldn't be admissible in court. A number of credible reports say that the secret service agents involved are preparing to testify under oath that it didn't happen. Which is a pity because if it wasn't true then the trumpies will use that to try to discredit her entire testimony, most of which was first-person and admissible.

Let's wait for the testimony by Secret Service agents before treating it as anything more significant than a rumor on the internet. That's really premature. We have testimony under oath from someone who actually talked to people with direct knowledge, one of whom was the head of the security detail in the limo. The other testimony sounds more like hearsay, but it would be great to get it recorded under oath. Like the testimony we saw today. I'm guessing that you did not actually listen to Hutchinson's testimony, since you thought it was "several levels of hearsay". You can actually find her testimony online, and I urge you to listen to it. My wife says that the president lunged at the driver, but went for the collar bones of Engel, the head of the security detail at the time. It isn't clear to me whose collar bones were being targeted, but it would be nice to hear from Engel and Pat Cipollone for corroboration or disagreement. Right now, Cipollone is refusing to testify, and a lot of people are pleading the fifth. Mark Meadows himself even asked for a pardon.

I watched the testimony live. She said that Ornato told her that Trump tried to grab the wheel and hit Engle. Ornato was not in the car so that is at least two levels of hearsay. And where did Ornato hear it? So yes, I'm treating it as rumor until someone who directly witnessed or was a participant in the incident testifies. As is required in court.