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June Election UK. Which Party do you think should win the election

Which party do you think should win the election


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With or without BREXIT the UK has difficulties.

Personal debts in the UK are now £1.5 trillion while the Government debt is £1.7 billion.
The UK is short of houses of one million houses.

http://www.hbf.co.uk/media-centre/news/view/housing-shortage-hits-one-million/
It's pointless packing in immigrants if we don't have houses.
We are short of affordable houses. Given house prices have sky rocketed during recent years, more people need affordable places to live.

wp,

At the end of Gordon Brown's time in office, the Government debt was £750 billion, much of that coming from the 2008 banking crisis. It is now £1.7 trillion and rising. Interesting how we don't hear the Tories going on about national debt these days.:p

A.

PS - I think this is the first time ever on the forum that I have used bold typeface, but there is a first time for everything. :cool:

PPS - One good thing about not being in monetary union with the EU is this: When the final crash comes, we can devalue our currency. Of course Brexit doesn't affect our ability to devalue, apart from probably speeding up the process.
 
With or without BREXIT the UK has difficulties.

Personal debts in the UK are now £1.5 trillion while the Government debt is £1.7 billion.
The UK is short of houses of one million houses.

http://www.hbf.co.uk/media-centre/news/view/housing-shortage-hits-one-million/
It's pointless packing in immigrants if we don't have houses.
We are short of affordable houses. Given house prices have sky rocketed during recent years, more people need affordable places to live.

wp,

At the end of Gordon Brown's time in office, the Government debt was £750 billion, much of that coming from the 2008 banking crisis. It is now £1.7 trillion and rising. Interesting how we don't hear the Tories going on about national debt these days.:p

A.

PS - I think this is the first time ever on the forum that I have used bold typeface, but there is a first time for everything. :cool:

PPS - One good thing about not being in monetary union with the EU is this: When the final crash comes, we can devalue our currency. Of course Brexit doesn't affect our ability to devalue, apart from probably speeding up the process.

The personal debt is £1.5 trillion as of 2016.

Teresa May and Labour have the same approach; they will do nothing of significance. Both Labour and Tory tend to avoid talking about the National debt as long is the UK can continue to borrow.

The personal debt in the UK is 89,3% of the GDP as of 2016
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt-to-gdp

In France it is higher at 96%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp

The French National Debt is over 2.1 Trillion Euros and rising
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/france

The German National Debt is over 2.1 Trillion Euros and rising
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/france

See here for full table: as the figures change by the second.


http://www.debtclocks.eu/public-debt-and-budget-deficits-comparison-of-the-eu-member-states.html

European countries such as Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Eire, UK, France
 
The truth isn't subject to democratic vote; It is an objective fact that the nation will be worse off due to Brexit, and that remains (pun intended) true regardless of how many people voted to leave. The leave vote was not a measure of how sensible it was to leave, but how popular - and it strongly indicates that a sizable minority of the electorate are fucking numpties.
The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

Britain - whether defined as the majority of her citizens, or as a corporate entity, is clearly better served by remaining in the EU. Those who believe otherwise are overwhelmingly representative of the poorly educated; and they STILL TODAY don't grasp that what they voted for, and what they thought they were voting for, are very different things. Most 'Leave' voters still think that leaving the EU will get rid of all the nasty black and brown people, so that only 'real' Englishmen can live there.

History shows that letting racist fuckwits decide policy is a very bad idea. It is still a bad idea, even when it is fairly popular.

Who decides what is true and what is not? This is why we had a democratic vote. Of course by definition the leave vote was popular.

Not all who voted to leave are pure white.

When housing shortages are mentioned as we cannot cope with people flooding into the UK we hear the word racist. Britain is a multi-racial society but we don't have the room for everyone who wants to come here.

The only way to determine what is true and what is not is to apply the scientific method. Who decides what is true and what is not? Scientists and experts do. Even when the people are tired of experts.

When most people thought that the Earth was flat, it was still, nevertheless, round. Democratic voting is not a means to determine the truth. Democracy is fine for matters of opinion; But is shouldn't be used to ask questions with a factual answer.

"Do you think the UK should leave the EU or remain?" is a question of opinion; and a slim majority of those who expressed their opinion and were entitled to vote said they wanted to leave.

"Is it better for the UK to leave the EU or to remain?" is a question of fact; and the answer is that the UK is better off if she remains. Democratic voting doesn't even enter into it.

The opinions of leave voters happen not to coincide with reality; while those of remain voters do - whether or not those voters reached their decision by rational or irrational means is irrelevant, as the truth isn't subject to opinion, pure white or otherwise.

It is, however, undeniable that racism was a major driver of the leave vote.

The reason we have a democracy is we cannot achieve a full consensus as to what is meant by Truth. We view things differently, which applies to the most educated down to the least.

The UK is not generally a racist society and many ethnic minorities also voted to leave.
 
Thanksgiving is already 'abolished' in the UK, inasmuch as it never existed there.
I know. It was a joke.
The British eat turkey at Christmas. The rest of your points are similarly well informed about British conditions and politics.
:rolleyes:
You are right about the SNP thing though. Labour really needs a coalition with SNP to form government if the Tories don't get a majority.
Given that the Tories are polling just under 50%, there is no (probable) way they will not get a healthy majority of seats.
But let's say they don't. How would such a coalition work? Would the position of the government be to support a secession of Scotland?
 
While I believe in an Israeli state, I also believe in a Palestinian one and Hamas is a natural reaction from a nation where land and property is being taken over here and there by settlers.
Bullshit! Hamas is ruling the Gaza Strip, where Palestinians have all the land and there are exactly zero Jewish settlers. You are more than a decade out of date.

The issue is HAMAS being league with the Muslim Brotherhood
I bet Corbyn likes Muslim Brotherhood too.

The problem with coal is Britain closed the mines down and then ever since we purchased what we need from Poland.
Think about it this way. Industrial revolution has started in England. UK has been getting coal out of the ground for more than a century on a major scale by the time of the 1984 strike. No wonder most of the mines have become marginal. At the same time the demand for coal has gone down. Not to mention that coal is the worst fuel when it comes to both air pollution and climate change.

While we did that minors were made redundant and many now still live on the State.
It is a failure that so many miners (are minors even allowed to be miners?) have not been retrained for other jobs. But pining for coal mining jobs is as ridiculous as pining for typewriter repairman jobs.
Besides, most of the miners made redundant under Thatcher are pensioners now.

Leaving the EU should not mean ceasing Trade for the UK imports much more from the EU than the UK exports to it.
My point is that the referendum was very close and Labour could make more political hay out of positioning themselves as firmly on "Brexit exit" rather then being wishy washy about it.
 
Few voters in the UK give a flying fuck about the Israel/Palestine issue; it's simply not important in British politics.
The question of this thread is who we think should win the elections. Corbyn's support for Hamas and Hezbollah means that I think Labour under his leadership should not win these elections. That is independent of what the Brits think, even though polls do indicate they do not think much of him either.

If anything, there is a minuscule benefit to a British politician in supporting the Palestinian side.
This is the big tragedy of Europe. Not even the ever increasing Islamic terrorist attacks are waking Europe up to the fact that they have much in common with Israel. Certainly much more than with Palestinians.
 
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Sadly, last night's events will make a right-wing victory ever more likely. It doesn't really matter who the attacker was or the motive behind it. It will give rise to fear and anger, and as research including neurological brain scans have shown, those are the cornerstone emotions that drive conservatism and support for authoritarian "solutions". Not so coincidentally, conservative "solutions" tend to lead to outcomes that trigger even more fear, which is why it is so hard to get society to move away from that approach despite its clear failure as a solution.
 
Bullshit! Hamas is ruling the Gaza Strip, where Palestinians have all the land and there are exactly zero Jewish settlers. You are more than a decade out of date.

The issue is HAMAS being league with the Muslim Brotherhood
I bet Corbyn likes Muslim Brotherhood too.

The problem with coal is Britain closed the mines down and then ever since we purchased what we need from Poland.
Think about it this way. Industrial revolution has started in England. UK has been getting coal out of the ground for more than a century on a major scale by the time of the 1984 strike. No wonder most of the mines have become marginal. At the same time the demand for coal has gone down. Not to mention that coal is the worst fuel when it comes to both air pollution and climate change.

While we did that minors were made redundant and many now still live on the State.
It is a failure that so many miners (are minors even allowed to be miners?) have not been retrained for other jobs. But pining for coal mining jobs is as ridiculous as pining for typewriter repairman jobs.
Besides, most of the miners made redundant under Thatcher are pensioners now.

Leaving the EU should not mean ceasing Trade for the UK imports much more from the EU than the UK exports to it.
My point is that the referendum was very close and Labour could make more political hay out of positioning themselves as firmly on "Brexit exit" rather then being wishy washy about it.


The Gaza strip, certainly as settlements are being targeted in the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank.

The Muslim Brotherhood is linked to CAIR, Hamas and the MSA and all kinds of strange groups. When we gave up the coal mines, we bought what we needed from Poland.

It’s not an ideal situation for people who were used to long hours in bad conditions to end up on social security.

Now years later we need no coal and many of the minors are on pensions.

Labour and Tory are as useless as each other and BREXIT and immigration figures will not change. We need a lot of nurses and care workers, so some immigration is necessary.

The UK purchases a lot more from the EU then it sells to it. The UK and EU still need to trade with each other but of course the UK does not need to be governed by external groups.
 
Sadly, last night's events will make a right-wing victory ever more likely.
Pretty likely. Seems odd, attack happen when left-wing party in charge, right-wing favored. Attack when right-wing in charge, right-wing favored. Granted, it went the opposite direction in Spain after the train attacks. And to be fair, I don't know if there actually is a correlation.

It doesn't really matter who the attacker was or the motive behind it. It will give rise to fear and anger, and as research including neurological brain scans have shown, those are the cornerstone emotions that drive conservatism and support for authoritarian "solutions". Not so coincidentally, conservative "solutions" tend to lead to outcomes that trigger even more fear, which is why it is so hard to get society to move away from that approach despite its clear failure as a solution.
Are you suggesting that bombing the fuck out of the Middle East isn't going to solve this problem?
 
I don't think many British people are quite as dim as you suppose.
 
Sadly, last night's events will make a right-wing victory ever more likely. It doesn't really matter who the attacker was or the motive behind it. It will give rise to fear and anger, and as research including neurological brain scans have shown, those are the cornerstone emotions that drive conservatism and support for authoritarian "solutions". Not so coincidentally, conservative "solutions" tend to lead to outcomes that trigger even more fear, which is why it is so hard to get society to move away from that approach despite its clear failure as a solution.

Notwithstanding such research when a suicide bomb is exploded in the circumstances we experienced, people who are both to the right and left will experience and express anger and fear. A brain scan isn't required for that.

Actually the studies say that biology may be linked to political orientation for there is a lot more required.
 
I don't think many British people are quite as dim as you suppose.
You can't say that after Brexit just like Americans can't say it because of W in '04 and Trump in '16.
It is difficult to say it after Brexit, I admit, but nearly half the population did vote against it, despite a lot voting just anti-establishment or going along with a vast campaign of lies, and some are sobering up in the one-party atmosphere here where Brexiteers strut and howl down opposition.
 
Sadly, last night's events will make a right-wing victory ever more likely. It doesn't really matter who the attacker was or the motive behind it. It will give rise to fear and anger, and as research including neurological brain scans have shown, those are the cornerstone emotions that drive conservatism and support for authoritarian "solutions". Not so coincidentally, conservative "solutions" tend to lead to outcomes that trigger even more fear, which is why it is so hard to get society to move away from that approach despite its clear failure as a solution.

Notwithstanding such research when a suicide bomb is exploded in the circumstances we experienced, people who are both to the right and left will experience and express anger and fear. A brain scan isn't required for that.

That is the point I was making. The fact that most people will have some degree of immediate fear and anger response is why most people, even those generally on the left, will shift to the right at least temporarily. That doesn't mean lifelong leftists will suddenly become staunch supporters of the conservative party. It means moderates and independents are more likely to vote in the short term to support those with aggressive intolerant rhetoric, and even some more clearly on the left will at least be less op-positional to policies they would normally strongly oppose. For example, it means that the majority of the US will support an illegal preemptive military attack on Iraq based on lies, despite all rational thought suggesting that the action will likely increase the actual threat of the thing that made them afraid (e.g., 9/11).

What the brain scans tell us is that there is a general association between fear, anger, and the kinds of responses and policies that conservatives favor, which typically entail supporting counter-violence for its own sake regardless of whether it deals with the threat, and authoritarian suppression of all things unfamiliar, uncommon, or that go against tradition.
What both the brain scans and all other relevant psychological data strongly suggest is that the main reason that some people generally favor conservative parties and their kinds of policies, no matter what recent events just occurred, is that they are highly prone to be fearful, anxious, and angry in their daily lives, even when the situation doesn't call for it. Teacher ratings of the chronic anxiousness of pre-school kids predicts their political conservatism 20 years later.

Actually the studies say that biology may be linked to political orientation for there is a lot more required.
OF course, all human behavior is multi-causal, but that doesn't mean you cannot significantly increase the prevalence of a behavior by altering one of those causes. Getting cancer is also multi-causal, but if you spray carcinogens on a population, the prevalence of cancer will go up, even if none of the other causal factors are themselves altered.
Also, while some of the biological differences tied to conservatism may be genetic (or otherwise "innate" due to In-utero factors), the brain scan differences do not directly speak to that. The scans are just a tool to measure low level neurological responses to various stimuli. How a person came to have those response tendencies is another matter, and it can include environmental influences, especially in early childhood that shaped their neurological wiring. For example, it could be that a child born into an environment that would trigger constant anxiety in almost anyone winds up with a brain that is prone to react to trigger anxiety in general, even when the situation doesn't call for it. That would tend to make the fear-based "attack the evil" rhetoric of both religious and GOP leaders seem more appealing and reasonable to this person.

Also, there are of course environmental effects that don't change the basic way the brain responds in general, but rather that instill assumptions and ideas that are more specific to political issues and that shape how one responds to an emotion like fear. For example, if you are taught that most people except for white Christians are evil and the cause of most bad things in the world, then when something happens that makes everyone afraid, you're first reaction will be to find which of the evil non-white or non-Christian groups need to be punished for it. Contrast that with a person who is taught that no one is inherently evil and that bad actions have no inherent relation to any "group" membership, and are the product of complex contingencies and sometimes random factors in a accidental godless world that no one is at fault for. When an event occurs that makes that person afraid, there first reaction is not to figure out what group to attack, but to figure out what complex circumstances brought it about and what response would actually be effective at making it less likely to happen. Thus, even a child born with a brain prone to high anxiety and fear can form a worldview that channels those fears into rational problem solving rather than the kind of blame-seeking violence to punish evil that essentially defines modern conservatism.
 
I don't think many British people are quite as dim as you suppose.

Half of them are above average in dimness, and most of the other half can be easily made quite dim by blinding their reason with emotion. If the fact that a half century of cognitive science research shows this is true of humans in general isn't convincing, then the Brexit vote proves it is clearly true of Brits.
 
... "The British people voted for Brexit". Well, no they didn't. ....
.

Large majorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland did vote for Brexit. Scotland in on the verge of leaving GB so, yes GB voted for Brexit.

Still, this vote in no way means brits are stupid, lazy, don't care, etc. The vote means that GB is in transition with those warring with England in the 17th century still wanting independence.
 
I don't think many British people are quite as dim as you suppose.

Half of them are above average in dimness, and most of the other half can be easily made quite dim by blinding their reason with emotion. If the fact that a half century of cognitive science research shows this is true of humans in general isn't convincing, then the Brexit vote proves it is clearly true of Brits.

Some Brexiteers are way above average in dimness, but others are just ill-informed, and I don't think they were 'blinding their reason with emotion'. They are just ignorant and cynical and were voting, unemotionally, to bugger up the people in charge, because they supposed that their votes could never actually affect real decisions, just allow them to thumb their noses. By the way, fromderinside, the people of the Six Counties voted Remain. The political parties made a quick shuffle to accept 'The People's Will' because they always work by electoral advantage, not principle. These countries have always worked by representative democracy, not bloody European-type plebicites, and Wilson deserves cursing for introducing this undemocratic nonsense.
 
The Gaza strip, certainly as settlements are being targeted in the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank.
Huh? Complete sentences, please!
The Muslim Brotherhood is linked to CAIR, Hamas and the MSA and all kinds of strange groups.
Indeed. And I am sure Comrade Jezza loves Muslim Brotherhood too ...

When we gave up the coal mines, we bought what we needed from Poland.
Understandable. Poland got a huge coal area (Silesia) and after the fall of the Iron Curtain they could export their coal to the West while having lower labor costs.

It’s not an ideal situation for people who were used to long hours in bad conditions to end up on social security.
You'd think it'd be a relief. I can't imagine anybody would want to work as a coal miner. Harsh working conditions, danger of accidents, health hazards like black lung. What's not to love? And if you early retire older miners, retrain younger, and simply stop hiring new ones, the problem solves itself over time. And note that greater automation means you can get same coal output with fewer miners these days anyway.
That Corbyn is still pining for coal means that he is stuck in the past. Although obsession with coal is one thing he and Trump have in common. :)

Now years later we need no coal and
Well, I would not say you "need no coal", but certainly less than in the past. I posted this graphic before, and I think it is illustrative.
fig-5-uk-coal-production-consumption-and-net-exports-and-imports.png



many of the minors are on pensions.
Well, that's your problem right there. If you are already putting minors on pensions, no wonder the country is going bankrupt. :) No, I know you mean miners ... :)

Labour and Tory are as useless as each other and BREXIT and immigration figures will not change. We need a lot of nurses and care workers, so some immigration is necessary.
Why not train more native nurses and care workers? That said, I think some immigration is good, but it should be limited in number and host country should be selective as to whom they let in, particularly concerning the immigrant's compatibility with the culture. If the prospective immigrant puts his wife in a bag and demands Sharia law then they should not be let in into the West. I also fail to see how letting in mass quantities of random migrants from the third world (many of them barely literate) will solve the health care worker shortage.
It's not about shutting borders and disallowing all immigration. It's about ending the current policy of tolerating mass migration from the third world, most of them Muslims, which is truly idiotic and, frankly, suicidal. Hundreds of thousands are coming each year across the Mediterranean route alone, aided and abetted by the NGOs.

The UK purchases a lot more from the EU then it sells to it. The UK and EU still need to trade with each other but of course the UK does not need to be governed by external groups.
I think UK provides a useful balance to the governance of the EU, just like more left and right states provide a balance to each other in the US. Thus I think Brexit will harm both UK and EU in the end.
 
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