June Election UK. Which Party do you think should win the election

[whichphilosophy]

Corbyn seems to be polishing his public speaking and presence and unlike Blair is not a war criminal. Out of the 2 main parties, Labour is the least useless.
If there is a slump both parties may simply blame it on Brexit.

Brexit is ideal for the UK. I certainly don't want the UK to go bankrupt like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Eire with France and Italy in difficulties.

- - - Updated - - -

More than 50% voted for BREXIT despite the poor press against it. The current government, preceded by Blair's proved more than capable of driving the country bankrupt, BREXIT or no BREXIT.

Britain is at least one million houses short (per a report from the Builder's Federation 2014) and construction is well below the requirements for keeping up with the rising population. Young people especially are now commonly crowding 4 in a room that's so tiny they end up sleeping on top of each other every night.

Murdoch sees to it that tories rule, especially when pretending to be Labour, and tories look after the rich. Why the buggery should they cre about the mugs?

Sounds about right. The government is also looking after the banksters.

We agree - except that Mr Corbyn doesn't need to improve his public speaking, which has always been excellent. It is one of the many lies the newspapers tell about him that he hasn't, and people's hearing him is one of the reasons that the Murdoch-inspired tories are beginning to lose their big lead.

I feel his speaking has improved. He is more forceful and simplistic. His points are clear and getting across. I think he spotted May's overconfidence where she has tried to slip in some cuts. He was good in Parliament in previous years.

 

[Canard DuJour]

Labour should win.

But the voters are stupid (as evidenced by Brexit, and by the very existence of UKIP), the system favours the Tories (first past the post by constituency), and the Tories have deeper pockets (and are not averse to cheating). Add in the tabloid press being owned by people who will gain far more from the insane economic policies of the Cons than they gain from having basic services and proper funding of things like the NHS, and it will be a close run thing.

I expect the Tories to win a small majority; and that as a result, the current bad times (for which they are mostly to blame) will seem like a golden age in comparison to the nightmare to come.

I sincerely hope that Labour can pull off an unlikely win, and start to repair some of the damage caused by the insane policy of 'austerity'. But I doubt that the voting public are any less stupid now than they were in the recent past, so the turkeys will once again vote for Christmas.

I couldn't possibly put it better.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Labour should win.

But the voters are stupid (as evidenced by Brexit, and by the very existence of UKIP), the system favours the Tories (first past the post by constituency), and the Tories have deeper pockets (and are not averse to cheating). Add in the tabloid press being owned by people who will gain far more from the insane economic policies of the Cons than they gain from having basic services and proper funding of things like the NHS, and it will be a close run thing.

I expect the Tories to win a small majority; and that as a result, the current bad times (for which they are mostly to blame) will seem like a golden age in comparison to the nightmare to come.

I sincerely hope that Labour can pull off an unlikely win, and start to repair some of the damage caused by the insane policy of 'austerity'. But I doubt that the voting public are any less stupid now than they were in the recent past, so the turkeys will once again vote for Christmas.

I couldn't possibly put it better.

Over 50% voted for BREXIT including Labour and Conservative public and MPs

The issues are still shortages of medical, housing, schooling and jobs which pay sufficient salaries.

 

[bilby]

I couldn't possibly put it better.

Over 50% voted for BREXIT including Labour and Conservative public and MPs

The issues are still shortages of medical, housing, schooling and jobs which pay sufficient salaries.

All of which will continue to get worse under a Conservative government.

The key role of a modern government is the redistribution of wealth. A market economy tends to concentrate wealth in fewer and fewer hands over time; the government's job is to redistribute the appropriate fraction of that wealth from the wealthy to the poor. Redistribute too much, and things go to shit. Redistribute too little, and things go to shit.

It's been clear for a long time now that too little is being redistributed by the UK government; the shortages you list are symptomatic of this.

The decision as to whether to vote for the party that will continue to redistribute less and less, or for the party whose policies will redistribute somewhat more, is a no-brainer. But sadly, people with no brains make up a sizeable electorate. As indicated by Brexit.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Over 50% voted for BREXIT including Labour and Conservative public and MPs

The issues are still shortages of medical, housing, schooling and jobs which pay sufficient salaries.

All of which will continue to get worse under a Conservative government.

The key role of a modern government is the redistribution of wealth. A market economy tends to concentrate wealth in fewer and fewer hands over time; the government's job is to redistribute the appropriate fraction of that wealth from the wealthy to the poor. Redistribute too much, and things go to shit. Redistribute too little, and things go to shit.

It's been clear for a long time now that too little is being redistributed by the UK government; the shortages you list are symptomatic of this.

The decision as to whether to vote for the party that will continue to redistribute less and less, or for the party whose policies will redistribute somewhat more, is a no-brainer. But sadly, people with no brains make up a sizeable electorate. As indicated by Brexit.

The UK has failed to invest in social housing over decades. Added to an increase of immigrants was not taken into account.
Foreign investors are also buying up English houses to push the prices up.

I’m not sure redistribution of wealth is a key solution. However higher wages mean more spending in the economy. This results in more consumption and the need to hire staff to satisfy that consumption.

Countries like Hong Kong, found the best way to combat cheap labour from abroad was to legislate that imported labour must receive at least what is expected as a normal rate of local people who do the same job.

 

[Philos]

But sadly, people with no brains make up a sizeable electorate. As indicated by Brexit.

bil,

Some people talk as if the Brexit vote was a landslide. I even heard a Tory politician say "The British people voted for Brexit". Well, no they didn't.
Of those who voted, a slim majority was for Brexit. Of the electorate, a large majority didn't vote for Brexit. Of course we will never know the minds of all those who didn't vote, or if they were even interested. However, the lack of voting indicates to me that they were not interested enough to vote.

As a remainer. I am quite comforted by the Tory manifesto on this issue. As we know, Theresa May is a remainer, and her intention to continue paying into the EU after Brexit sounds like business as usual to me.

A.

 

[bilby]

But sadly, people with no brains make up a sizeable electorate. As indicated by Brexit.

bil,

Some people talk as if the Brexit vote was a landslide. I even heard a Tory politician say "The British people voted for Brexit". Well, no they didn't.
Of those who voted, a slim majority was for Brexit. Of the electorate, a large majority didn't vote for Brexit. Of course we will never know the minds of all those who didn't vote, or if they were even interested. However, the lack of voting indicates to me that they were not interested enough to vote.

As a remainer. I am quite comforted by the Tory manifesto on this issue. As we know, Theresa May is a remainer, and her intention to continue paying into the EU after Brexit sounds like business as usual to me.

A.

Indeed the Leave vote was less than compelling; but the fact that it even happened, and wasn't a landslide victory for Remain, speaks poorly of the state of the British education system.

 

[whichphilosophy]

bil,

Some people talk as if the Brexit vote was a landslide. I even heard a Tory politician say "The British people voted for Brexit". Well, no they didn't.
Of those who voted, a slim majority was for Brexit. Of the electorate, a large majority didn't vote for Brexit. Of course we will never know the minds of all those who didn't vote, or if they were even interested. However, the lack of voting indicates to me that they were not interested enough to vote.

As a remainer. I am quite comforted by the Tory manifesto on this issue. As we know, Theresa May is a remainer, and her intention to continue paying into the EU after Brexit sounds like business as usual to me.

A.

Indeed the Leave vote was less than compelling; but the fact that it even happened, and wasn't a landslide victory for Remain, speaks poorly of the state of the British education system.

If it was a landslide victory would you say there were simply more sheeple?

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

 

[iolo]

Indeed the Leave vote was less than compelling; but the fact that it even happened, and wasn't a landslide victory for Remain, speaks poorly of the state of the British education system.

If it was a landslide victory would you say there were simply more sheeple?

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

As previously with Michael Foot and Kinnock, the tory media have been hawking an hysterical hatred of Mr Corbyn, telling all sorts of lies, which together with the Brexiteer thuggery, makes it difficult to catch up, though the great majority believe in all the points in the Labour manifesto. The Blairites careerists are also mad to get the tories safely back, so we have a great deal of work to do. A tory victory will mean widespread poverty even without the post-Brexit slump.

 

[whichphilosophy]

If it was a landslide victory would you say there were simply more sheeple?

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

As previously with Michael Foot and Kinnock, the tory media have been hawking an hysterical hatred of Mr Corbyn, telling all sorts of lies, which together with the Brexiteer thuggery, makes it difficult to catch up, though the great majority believe in all the points in the Labour manifesto. The Blairites careerists are also mad to get the tories safely back, so we have a great deal of work to do. A tory victory will mean widespread poverty even without the post-Brexit slump.

With or without BREXIT the UK has difficulties.

Personal debts in the UK are now £1.5 trillion while the Government debt is £1.7 billion.
The UK is short of houses of one million houses.

http://www.hbf.co.uk/media-centre/news/view/housing-shortage-hits-one-million/
It's pointless packing in immigrants if we don't have houses.
We are short of affordable houses. Given house prices have sky rocketed during recent years, more people need affordable places to live.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As previously with Michael Foot and Kinnock, the tory media have been hawking an hysterical hatred of Mr Corbyn, telling all sorts of lies, which together with the Brexiteer thuggery, makes it difficult to catch up, though the great majority believe in all the points in the Labour manifesto. The Blairites careerists are also mad to get the tories safely back, so we have a great deal of work to do. A tory victory will mean widespread poverty even without the post-Brexit slump.

With or without BREXIT the UK has difficulties.

Personal debts in the UK are now £1.5 trillion while the Government debt is £1.7 billion.
The UK is short of houses of one million houses.

http://www.hbf.co.uk/media-centre/news/view/housing-shortage-hits-one-million/
It's pointless packing in immigrants if we don't have houses.
We are short of affordable houses. Given house prices have sky rocketed during recent years, more people need affordable places to live.

Maybe the the younger people shouldn't buy avocado toast, then they could afford the houses.

 

[iolo]

With or without BREXIT the UK has difficulties.

Personal debts in the UK are now £1.5 trillion while the Government debt is £1.7 billion.
The UK is short of houses of one million houses.

http://www.hbf.co.uk/media-centre/news/view/housing-shortage-hits-one-million/
It's pointless packing in immigrants if we don't have houses.
We are short of affordable houses. Given house prices have sky rocketed during recent years, more people need affordable places to live.

Maybe the the younger people shouldn't buy avocado toast, then they could afford the houses.

Don't be daft - how could they compete with Russian billionaires? They should stop buying tory bullshit - that's the key. And demand they get the vote, of course.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Maybe the Labour Party should promise more avocado toast?

 

[bilby]

Indeed the Leave vote was less than compelling; but the fact that it even happened, and wasn't a landslide victory for Remain, speaks poorly of the state of the British education system.

If it was a landslide victory would you say there were simply more sheeple?

The truth isn't subject to democratic vote; It is an objective fact that the nation will be worse off due to Brexit, and that remains (pun intended) true regardless of how many people voted to leave. The leave vote was not a measure of how sensible it was to leave, but how popular - and it strongly indicates that a sizable minority of the electorate are fucking numpties.

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

Britain - whether defined as the majority of her citizens, or as a corporate entity, is clearly better served by remaining in the EU. Those who believe otherwise are overwhelmingly representative of the poorly educated; and they STILL TODAY don't grasp that what they voted for, and what they thought they were voting for, are very different things. Most 'Leave' voters still think that leaving the EU will get rid of all the nasty black and brown people, so that only 'real' Englishmen can live there.

History shows that letting racist fuckwits decide policy is a very bad idea. It is still a bad idea, even when it is fairly popular.

 

[whichphilosophy]

If it was a landslide victory would you say there were simply more sheeple?

The truth isn't subject to democratic vote; It is an objective fact that the nation will be worse off due to Brexit, and that remains (pun intended) true regardless of how many people voted to leave. The leave vote was not a measure of how sensible it was to leave, but how popular - and it strongly indicates that a sizable minority of the electorate are fucking numpties.

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

Britain - whether defined as the majority of her citizens, or as a corporate entity, is clearly better served by remaining in the EU. Those who believe otherwise are overwhelmingly representative of the poorly educated; and they STILL TODAY don't grasp that what they voted for, and what they thought they were voting for, are very different things. Most 'Leave' voters still think that leaving the EU will get rid of all the nasty black and brown people, so that only 'real' Englishmen can live there.

History shows that letting racist fuckwits decide policy is a very bad idea. It is still a bad idea, even when it is fairly popular.

Who decides what is true and what is not? This is why we had a democratic vote. Of course by definition the leave vote was popular.

Not all who voted to leave are pure white.
We don't have enough houses, housing construction, hospitals and schools to sustain net 300,000 new comers each your,

 

[bilby]

The truth isn't subject to democratic vote; It is an objective fact that the nation will be worse off due to Brexit, and that remains (pun intended) true regardless of how many people voted to leave. The leave vote was not a measure of how sensible it was to leave, but how popular - and it strongly indicates that a sizable minority of the electorate are fucking numpties.

The EU is okay in theory but in practice a country goes bankrupt, their economies and repayments are mandated by Banksters with Brussels levying fines on those who don't pay on time.

Britain - whether defined as the majority of her citizens, or as a corporate entity, is clearly better served by remaining in the EU. Those who believe otherwise are overwhelmingly representative of the poorly educated; and they STILL TODAY don't grasp that what they voted for, and what they thought they were voting for, are very different things. Most 'Leave' voters still think that leaving the EU will get rid of all the nasty black and brown people, so that only 'real' Englishmen can live there.

History shows that letting racist fuckwits decide policy is a very bad idea. It is still a bad idea, even when it is fairly popular.

Who decides what is true and what is not? This is why we had a democratic vote. Of course by definition the leave vote was popular.

Not all who voted to leave are pure white.

When housing shortages are mentioned as we cannot cope with people flooding into the UK we hear the word racist. Britain is a multi-racial society but we don't have the room for everyone who wants to come here.

The only way to determine what is true and what is not is to apply the scientific method. Who decides what is true and what is not? Scientists and experts do. Even when the people are tired of experts.

When most people thought that the Earth was flat, it was still, nevertheless, round. Democratic voting is not a means to determine the truth. Democracy is fine for matters of opinion; But is shouldn't be used to ask questions with a factual answer.

"Do you think the UK should leave the EU or remain?" is a question of opinion; and a slim majority of those who expressed their opinion and were entitled to vote said they wanted to leave.

"Is it better for the UK to leave the EU or to remain?" is a question of fact; and the answer is that the UK is better off if she remains. Democratic voting doesn't even enter into it.

The opinions of leave voters happen not to coincide with reality; while those of remain voters do - whether or not those voters reached their decision by rational or irrational means is irrelevant, as the truth isn't subject to opinion, pure white or otherwise.

It is, however, undeniable that racism was a major driver of the leave vote.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Maybe the Labour Party should promise more avocado toast?

At elections the parties promise lots and deliver little or nothing.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

In Britain now, the National health Service is in desperate financial straights. May has declared that the Conservatives will not raise more money for Britain's failing National Health Service. I suspect, later, if not sooner, this is going to create problems for the Conservative Party. Much as repeal of Obamacare and rape of Medicaid and medicare in America will eventually doom the GOP. If the Conservatives retain power, they will own this crisis.

 

[bilby]

In Britain now, the National health Service is in desperate financial straights. May has declared that the Conservatives will not raise more money for Britain's failing National Health Service. I suspect, later, if not sooner, this is going to create problems for the Conservative Party. Much as repeal of Obamacare and rape of Medicaid and medicare in America will eventually doom the GOP. If the Conservatives retain power, they will own this crisis.

It's not accidental. They have deliberately created this crisis, as a means to gain support for privatizing the NHS. This is the sort of stupid shit that happens when ideology is given supremacy over observed results - According to Conservative dogma, nationalized entities are always worse than private businesses at everything; so it is necessary to privatize everything, and any disasters that arise as a result are due to the wrong attitude on the part of the public.

Ideologues often think that the ends justify the means. They are almost invariably wrong, and the current state of the NHS is yet another example of this. But nobody's learning. The right-wing own almost all of the British press; the British people will keep voting in Conservative Governments as long as the press keep assassinating the character of anyone who tries to oppose their agenda. The press barons and the Tory politicians can afford private hospitals, and stand to get rich from the replacement of the NHS with a private for-profit system. In the face of the chance to make an obscene amount of cash, the well-being of the commoners is of little import.

 

[Philos]

In Britain now, the National health Service is in desperate financial straights. May has declared that the Conservatives will not raise more money for Britain's failing National Health Service. I suspect, later, if not sooner, this is going to create problems for the Conservative Party. Much as repeal of Obamacare and rape of Medicaid and medicare in America will eventually doom the GOP. If the Conservatives retain power, they will own this crisis.

It's not accidental. They have deliberately created this crisis, as a means to gain support for privatizing the NHS. This is the sort of stupid shit that happens when ideology is given supremacy over observed results - According to Conservative dogma, nationalized entities are always worse than private businesses at everything; so it is necessary to privatize everything, and any disasters that arise as a result are due to the wrong attitude on the part of the public.

Ideologues often think that the ends justify the means. They are almost invariably wrong, and the current state of the NHS is yet another example of this. But nobody's learning. The right-wing own almost all of the British press; the British people will keep voting in Conservative Governments as long as the press keep assassinating the character of anyone who tries to oppose their agenda. The press barons and the Tory politicians can afford private hospitals, and stand to get rich from the replacement of the NHS with a private for-profit system. In the face of the chance to make an obscene amount of cash, the well-being of the commoners is of little import.

bil,

An American hedge fund manager (I think it was Hosking?) poured money into the Brexit vote and is now doing the same with the general election. Your last two sentences explain why.

Alex.