Ken Ham's Momunent to Stupidity

[Bronzeage]

I love threads like this. We start with story about a man who survives a flood because he has a boat. It's the kind of thing that is happening everyday, somewhere on this planet. In this case, the story got embellished a little. Okay, maybe a lot. Whatever really happened, this particular flood certainly left an impression on everybody in the general vicinity. The story, as it has survived is incredible on the face of it. Even the limited zoology of the middle east would quickly swamp any boat that could be built with the available time and technology. Of course, building a boat with no propulsion or steering system simplifies things. All Noah had to do was build a "carpenter's boat," which is otherwise known as a waterproof box.

I think we can concede someone survived a flood in some kind of boat. Maybe he had his family with him. Maybe a few sheep and goats. Totally plausible, but once we establish the first impossibility, any additional impossibilities are superfluous.

Its more like ancient men noticed fossilized sea creatures on hills and mountains and some oriental tall tale tellers made up tall tales inspired by this fairly common observance. The tales were passed on and modified, changed and grew and grew. People like bizarre tales, witness all the myths of Greek monster killing heros and their monsters and the like.

It's best to go with the simplest explanation, in most cases. The ancient middle eastern cultures which left written records have flood stories of their own. Each story tells of someone who survived a cataclysmic flood by building a boat. The Genesis story of Noah is just one version.

It has been proposed that sea levels dropped greatly during the last ice age, leaving the large areas around the Black Sea dry. People lived, farmed, and raised animals by the sea shore. This scenario has an ice dam blocking the Straits of Bosporus. As levels in the Mediterranean Sea rose, this put greater pressure on the ice dam, until it collapsed and quickly brought the Black Sea back to its original level. In days or hours, the water level would rise a hundred feet or more. To anyone around at that time, it would appear to be the end of the world, something completely outside human experience. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time.

 

[NobleSavage]

Its more like ancient men noticed fossilized sea creatures on hills and mountains and some oriental tall tale tellers made up tall tales inspired by this fairly common observance. The tales were passed on and modified, changed and grew and grew. People like bizarre tales, witness all the myths of Greek monster killing heros and their monsters and the like.

It's best to go with the simplest explanation, in most cases. The ancient middle eastern cultures which left written records have flood stories of their own. Each story tells of someone who survived a cataclysmic flood by building a boat. The Genesis story of Noah is just one version.

It has been proposed that sea levels dropped greatly during the last ice age, leaving the large areas around the Black Sea dry. People lived, farmed, and raised animals by the sea shore. This scenario has an ice dam blocking the Straits of Bosporus. As levels in the Mediterranean Sea rose, this put greater pressure on the ice dam, until it collapsed and quickly brought the Black Sea back to its original level. In days or hours, the water level would rise a hundred feet or more. To anyone around at that time, it would appear to be the end of the world, something completely outside human experience. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time.

I've heard that before, but I don't think anyone got their shit together in days or hours and built a boat. I'm going with storytellers making shit up.

 

[bilby]

It's best to go with the simplest explanation, in most cases. The ancient middle eastern cultures which left written records have flood stories of their own. Each story tells of someone who survived a cataclysmic flood by building a boat. The Genesis story of Noah is just one version.

It has been proposed that sea levels dropped greatly during the last ice age, leaving the large areas around the Black Sea dry. People lived, farmed, and raised animals by the sea shore. This scenario has an ice dam blocking the Straits of Bosporus. As levels in the Mediterranean Sea rose, this put greater pressure on the ice dam, until it collapsed and quickly brought the Black Sea back to its original level. In days or hours, the water level would rise a hundred feet or more. To anyone around at that time, it would appear to be the end of the world, something completely outside human experience. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time.

I've heard that before, but I don't think anyone got their shit together in days or hours and built a boat. I'm going with storytellers making shit up.

Nobody's building a boat in a few days or hours; but people who live on the littoral plain probably had boats all over the place.

Of course, if there are no survivors to call you a liar, and say you stole their boat, you can claim you built it yourself. Or the idea that you not only found, but rather constructed a boat in the nick of time, can make a nice embellishment to the story at some later date.

 

[Underseer]

Its more like ancient men noticed fossilized sea creatures on hills and mountains and some oriental tall tale tellers made up tall tales inspired by this fairly common observance. The tales were passed on and modified, changed and grew and grew. People like bizarre tales, witness all the myths of Greek monster killing heros and their monsters and the like.

It's best to go with the simplest explanation, in most cases. The ancient middle eastern cultures which left written records have flood stories of their own. Each story tells of someone who survived a cataclysmic flood by building a boat. The Genesis story of Noah is just one version.

It has been proposed that sea levels dropped greatly during the last ice age, leaving the large areas around the Black Sea dry. People lived, farmed, and raised animals by the sea shore. This scenario has an ice dam blocking the Straits of Bosporus. As levels in the Mediterranean Sea rose, this put greater pressure on the ice dam, until it collapsed and quickly brought the Black Sea back to its original level. In days or hours, the water level would rise a hundred feet or more. To anyone around at that time, it would appear to be the end of the world, something completely outside human experience. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time.

The Noah story copied from the Gilgamesh story, who in turn copied the story from an earlier source, and if I remember right, that source also copied from an earlier source.

So we only need one explanation to produce all the flood stories in that region. I think the simplest explanation is--as you suggest--stories about an ordinary flood that got "enhanced" through retelling. It's hard to explain to people why floods can be devastating. After all, it only takes a few inches of running water to wash people away and kill them, but that just doesn't sound dramatic enough on retelling, and the audience members who have never experienced a flood probably won't understand why even a few inches of flood under the wrong circumstances can devastate a large region. So I imagine that little by little, the flood kept getting deeper upon each retelling, and other embellishments were added.

Whether or not an actual boat was involved in anything is pure conjecture. For all we know, the original story may have involved someone who survived because he clung to a plank of wood, and the embellishments kept making the plank bigger until it because a giant ship capable of holding two of very kind of animal (which shows that primitive peoples had no idea how many different kinds of animals there are in the world).

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That doesn't help their cause much; An elephant removed from its mother before it is weaned will die, so it must be at least 5, and probably closer to 10 years old to stand any chance of surviving - and by that age, an elephant is easily two-thirds of its adult size.

Even a newborn Elephant is a pretty large animal; and if all the animals on the ark are infants (or even just all the large species) then Noah and his family just multiplied their workload by a large number; and their food requirements went up a fair bit too.

Plus elephants are social animals who pass along information just like us. You don't pluck them away from their environment, float them around in a bath tub for a month or so and then let them out to pick up where they left off in an alien environment that is without food and cover. They'll croak.

So maybe Noah put something really good into their food.

 

[Wiploc]

If this is a true replica of the 'ark' then surely people would realise that two of every animal couldn't possibly fit into it.

I've having this discussion with a fundy. He thins all the animals would fit. So we are going to do the calculation together. Problem is I'm not sure to start? I know others have done it, but If I were to do it from scratch how would I do it?

Never throw logic at their miracles. Instead, throw miracles at their logic.

If the flood is a miracle, why can't fitting the animals on the ark be a miracle? So that seems to me not worth arguing about.

On the other hand, if a miracle is all it would take to defeat people with chariots of iron, why didn't the Jews win that battle? If a miracle is all it would take to preserve everyone's life during the great flood, why wasn't there a miracle? If a miracle is all it would take to avoid the necessity of Crucifying Jesus, why was there no miracle?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It has been proposed that sea levels dropped greatly during the last ice age, leaving the large areas around the Black Sea dry. People lived, farmed, and raised animals by the sea shore. This scenario has an ice dam blocking the Straits of Bosporus. As levels in the Mediterranean Sea rose, this put greater pressure on the ice dam, until it collapsed and quickly brought the Black Sea back to its original level. In days or hours, the water level would rise a hundred feet or more. To anyone around at that time, it would appear to be the end of the world, something completely outside human experience. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time.

I think it is simpler than that. Early civilizations grew near rivers. Rivers flood, sometimes very badly. That a flood is extrapolated to destroy the world because god is dumb is hardly a jump.

If this is a true replica of the 'ark' then surely people would realise that two of every animal couldn't possibly fit into it.

I've having this discussion with a fundy. He thins all the animals would fit. So we are going to do the calculation together. Problem is I'm not sure to start? I know others have done it, but If I were to do it from scratch how would I do it?

Not even worth the effort. You'll fall into traps like "kinds", "babies", "miracle". None of which you can get rid of. However, there is probably one thing that maybe possible to test, methane. The Ark had a window. Just one. Be very hard to air out the ark. Not hard to premise the idea that lighting a candle one night would have blown the whole thing up. Of course, this would ultimately be defeated by the "miracle" excuse.

The only real argument against the Flood is that there is absolutely no geological evidence that suggests it ever happened. That can be brushed aside via Argumenta Ignoramus.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think it is simpler than that. Early civilizations grew near rivers. Rivers flood, sometimes very badly. That a flood is extrapolated to destroy the world because god is dumb is hardly a jump.

An argument strengthened by the Egyptians. To them, annual floods were blessings, not tragedies. Their mythology did not include a 'world destroyed by floodwaters' scenario.

Other cultures in savannahs, areas that didn't flood, but had discovered seems of coal determined that the previous world had been destroyed by fire. See the charred remains?

 

[bilby]

The aborigines kept right on drawing pictures of thylacines, wombats, kangaroos and platypuses, completely oblivious to the fact that they, and all of the animals they drew, were wiped out by a global flood.

Or maybe Noah made a detour via Australia and New Zealand, and dropped off all the marsupials and a couple of monotremes, but figured that it was unnecessary to bother chronicling a trip to a great southern continent thousands of miles away, because reasons.

For a book that is billed by some as containing all the information anyone could ever need, the Bible seems surprisingly short on mentions of Australia, or the Americas. How did animals and humans repopulate these places after the flood? Why didn't Jesus send some disciples to pass on God's word to those regions - or why didn't God send another son (or several more) to spread the Word more widely? I know he liked the Jews more than anyone (you can tell they are his chosen people by the way they are so widely liked and admired, and the fact that nobody dares say nasty things about them), but a quick 'heads up' to the native Americans and the Australian aborigines to save them from internal Dalmatians would have been nice.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If this is a true replica of the 'ark' then surely people would realise that two of every animal couldn't possibly fit into it.

I've having this discussion with a fundy. He thins all the animals would fit. So we are going to do the calculation together. Problem is I'm not sure to start? I know others have done it, but If I were to do it from scratch how would I do it?

Talk Origins Flood Faq part 3

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The aborigines kept right on drawing pictures of thylacines, wombats, kangaroos and platypuses, completely oblivious to the fact that they, and all of the animals they drew, were wiped out by a global flood.

Or maybe Noah made a detour via Australia and New Zealand, and dropped off all the marsupials and a couple of monotremes, but figured that it was unnecessary to bother chronicling a trip to a great southern continent thousands of miles away, because reasons.

For a book that is billed by some as containing all the information anyone could ever need, the Bible seems surprisingly short on mentions of Australia, or the Americas. How did animals and humans repopulate these places after the flood?

They didn't. The Bible explicitly says that in the days of Peleg the Earth was divided. Anyone who has a brain can easily tell that means there was substantial tectonic activity which swished away the Continents to their current positions. The related geologic consequences were not reported because it wasn't that big of a deal because god.

That they didn't keep to the word of god post Earth dividing is evidence that they are heathens. Clearly. So it is all good.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

They also believe Jesus could feed thousands of people with five loaves of bread and two fish, so it's not surprising they would believe an Ark this size could carry every "kind" of animal. They're just not good at math.

 

[thebeave]

I always felt bad for the two Koala bears that had to make the long arduous journey from Mt Ararat back to Australia. Their paws would have to be so sore from all that crawling. Not to mention the hundreds of miles of non-stop swimming at the end. Maybe that's why they are so universally adored. They have that "can do" spirit on top of looking cute!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I always felt bad for the two Koala bears that had to make the long arduous journey from Mt Ararat back to Australia. Their paws would have to be so sore from all that crawling. Not to mention the hundreds of miles of non-stop swimming at the end. Maybe that's why they are so universally adored. They have that "can do" spirit on top of looking cute!

I get the feeling some people didn't argue about The Flood as much as I have. Every reasonable question has an equally proportional hand wave.

"The Bible explicitly says that in the days of Peleg the Earth was divided. Anyone who has a brain can easily tell that means there was substantial tectonic activity which swished away the Continents to their current positions."

 

[Keith&Co.]

Every reasonable question has an equally proportional hand wave.

"The Bible explicitly says that in the days of Peleg the Earth was divided. Anyone who has a brain can easily tell that means there was substantial tectonic activity which swished away the Continents to their current positions."

Too bad this interpretation wasn't commonly held when people first floated the idea of continental drift. THEN the thumpers insisted on reading the verses about Earth resting on pillars and not moving, which proved that the continents didn't drift. They can't, else God's Word would be incorrect. So there!

 

[bilby]

Every reasonable question has an equally proportional hand wave.

"The Bible explicitly says that in the days of Peleg the Earth was divided. Anyone who has a brain can easily tell that means there was substantial tectonic activity which swished away the Continents to their current positions."

Too bad this interpretation wasn't commonly held when people first floated the idea of continental drift. THEN the thumpers insisted on reading the verses about Earth resting on pillars and not moving, which proved that the continents didn't drift. They can't, else God's Word would be incorrect. So there!

Well that's the big advantage of faith over science.

Faith provides an explanation for any observation. As long as you only consider one question at a time (and as long as you can wave your hands sufficiently furiously), it is easy to come up with a fairly solid argument for pretty much anything.

These stupid scientists with their insistence that explanations must be consistent with one another, in order to all be considered correct simultaneously, are just making things unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Underseer]

There are so many things that are ridiculous about the flood story that one wonders how it's possible that so many people take the story literally.

Why doesn't the geographical distribution of species provide evidence for all animals traveling from mt. Ararat to the rest of the world? Why don't we see more slow species near Ararat and more fast species further from Ararat? Why don't we see species distributed in radial lines leading away from Ararat? If all the marsupials traveled from Ararat to Australia, then shouldn't there have been straggler species left behind during the journey? If we plot the location of marsupials on a map, shouldn't we see a line extending from Ararat to Australia?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There are so many things that are ridiculous about the flood story that one wonders how it's possible that so many people take the story literally.

Why doesn't the geographical distribution of species provide evidence for all animals traveling from mt. Ararat to the rest of the world?

*sigh*

The answer is Peleg. Look above. Every legit question has a biblical hand waving argument.

 

[James Brown]

I think this is the way it's going to go. I started briefly with elephants and they responded by saying the elephants were babies.

Your fundy's answer contradicts the written account. The passage reads that Noah brought on each animal "and his mate" which implies sexual maturity. Thus, no babies.

It's one thing to stymie a Creationist with science--which they wave away with magic--but to point out that their 'solution' is anti-Biblical will give them pause.

- - - Updated - - -

Every defense of Noah's Ark devolves into bad science, bad engineering, or magic.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There are so many things that are ridiculous about the flood story that one wonders how it's possible that so many people take the story literally.

You're obviously confusing people who have a brain with people who use their brain.