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Kim Davis - Kentucky's theocratic ruler

Oh, yah.

Kim Davis has inspired red-neck, camo-wearing armed vigilantes to 'guard' her so she can continue her bigotry - er, freedom of religion - without fear of being arrested again.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/oa...king-kim-davis-with-guns-from-dictator-judge/
I know, I know. We shouldn't panic, but ummm... are they threatening the Judge (A George W Bush appointed Judge)?

As the article goes on to note, being found in contempt is a direct offense of the court and there is no trial. Contempt is the judgment! Now these radicals want to protect her from getting put in jail again for refusing to perform her job and forcing others not to perform their duty. Add to that them being upset with the Bill of Rights being desecrated by expanding Civil Rights, and we've got a collision between stupid and armed.

Seriously? It is as if Alex Jones and the Religious Right have merged.
 
Oh, yah.

Kim Davis has inspired red-neck, camo-wearing armed vigilantes to 'guard' her so she can continue her bigotry - er, freedom of religion - without fear of being arrested again.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/oa...king-kim-davis-with-guns-from-dictator-judge/

I love this story highlighted on the same page

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/mik...law-of-the-land-regardless-of-14th-amendment/

What a moron Kuckabee is. He is clueless, totally fucking clueless, on how the US legal system works.
 
The Muslim flight attendant did seek accommodation and was actually afforded accommodation, which worked for a few months until another employee decided to complain about it. Only then did they fire her. Also, she didn't want to prevent passengers from drinking alcohol at all, she just didn't want to be the one who served it.


This is an important distinction. Davis wasn't just refusing to issue the licenses herself, she was refusing to allow the licenses to be issued at all. That's not an accommodation. That's usurping the power of your government position to compel others to follow the tenets of your faith.

Keeping with the Muslim theme, it is a little as if a Muslim school principal decided that it was appropriate to shut down the cafeteria during Ramadan, since her sincerely held belief told her that fasting was a necessary part of her faith.
 
That is a very valid point. She is looking for an accommodation for religious beliefs while serving in a position where such an accommodation isn't actually applicable, on those grounds alone.

I was President of a public employee Union for a few years, and am quite familiar with the rights of employees.

The first amendment exists to protect everyone's right to express belief and exercise religion. She is a government employee (an "official" or "officer" being a superfluous term)

She isn't a government employee, and the term "official" isn't superfluous.

Kim Davis wasn't hired to do a job; she stood for election and won.

She wasn't required to sign an agreement to abide by office policies or face possible termination of employment; she took an Oath of Office, specifically this one:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of _______ according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God." <link>

She cannot be fired. She can only be removed from office through an act of the Kentucky legislature or by failing to win re-election.

She has the power to certify that an applicant has met the legal requirements to conduct certain business and enter into certain legal agreements in Rowan County. She represents the government, and in some ways she is the government.


and all government employees have the right of free speech, as long as such speech is to address public-political issues (e.g. an employee is not free to bad mouth his employer or use speech to create a hostile work environment). The denial of services of Rowan County residents is not a violation of the first amendment (people can complain all they like about her closure of marriage licences), it was a violation of a lawful requirement of her job. It may also have been illegal discrimination under the color of claimed equal treatment (although I find this argument weaker).

None the less, as an employee, under State law, she is entitled to protection of her freedom of conscience and entitled to religious accommodation (if it is not unduly burdensome or harmful to her office's mission). IF she were a federal employee (official), then she would be entitled to the same under federal law.

Kim Davis, citizen, is protected in the same way and to the same degree any other citizen is protected. But the County Clerk of Rowan County, Kentucky does not have the right or legal authority to refuse to carry out the duties of his/her office. No elected official has that right.
 
As I pointed out in a letter to the editor in the Lexington Herald-Leader the other day, the law provisions for religious accommodation is not absolute, but permits it only if the establishment in question can do so without adversely affecting is business.

So Kim Davis should be accommodated, but only in not having to sign licenses herself. Her argument that none of her deputies can be allowed to do so cannot be accommodated.
I disagree, because if we make the accommodation for her, wouldn't we have to make the similar accommodation for everyone else in the office? So what if no one in the office is willing to sign the marriage licenses?

"religious accommodation" is allowing head scarves or religious necklaces, or prayer time throughout the day or a kosher plate in the cafeteria. It does not mean changing the job requirements to the detriment of the customer/general public.

She needs to do her job or resign.
 
As I pointed out in a letter to the editor in the Lexington Herald-Leader the other day, the law provisions for religious accommodation is not absolute, but permits it only if the establishment in question can do so without adversely affecting is business.

So Kim Davis should be accommodated, but only in not having to sign licenses herself. Her argument that none of her deputies can be allowed to do so cannot be accommodated.
I disagree, because if we make the accommodation for her, wouldn't we have to make the similar accommodation for everyone else in the office? So what if no one in the office is willing to sign the marriage licenses?
This is the "passing the buck" issue. It just shifts it around.

Simply put, she can't be accommodated to not obey the law.
 
I was President of a public employee Union for a few years, and am quite familiar with the rights of employees.

The first amendment exists to protect everyone's right to express belief and exercise religion. She is a government employee (an "official" or "officer" being a superfluous term)

She isn't a government employee, and the term "official" isn't superfluous.

Kim Davis wasn't hired to do a job; she stood for election and won.

She is a government employee:

Generally, any individual who serves as a public official is an employee of the government for whom he or she serves. Therefore, the government entity is responsible for withholding and paying Federal income tax, social security and Medicare taxes, and issuing Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement, to a public official.
http://www.irs.gov/Government-Entit...sification-of-Elected-and-Appointed-Officials

She is an employee. Did I not tutor you sufficiently? I said "the first amendment exists to protect everyone's right to express belief and exercise religion. She is a government employee (an "official" or "officer" being a superfluous term)." So yes, her being "an official" is superfluous and irrelevant to her right, as an employee, to the first amendment rights of expression and religion. Why does that vex you?

However, I would be most amused if you alert other folks "standing for office" that they don't have free speech and religion rights if one of them wins: like Hillary, Donald, and Mr. Huckabee.

She wasn't required to sign an agreement to abide by office policies or face possible termination of employment; she took an Oath of Office, specifically this one:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of _______ according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God." <link>

She cannot be fired. She can only be removed from office through an act of the Kentucky legislature or by failing to win re-election.
So what? How she becomes an employee, through election or appointment, or how she loses her job does not change her first amendment rights.

As an aside, I don't see much point in quoting the oath. She believes she is following the Constitution, the Commonwealth of Kentucky's Constitution, and Kentucky law. In current Kentucky law, marriage is only between a man and a woman AND certifying a same sex marriage is punishable.

She has the power to certify that an applicant has met the legal requirements to conduct certain business and enter into certain legal agreements in Rowan County. She represents the government, and in some ways she is the government.
When she acts in that capacity, she is an approving authority - just as is the President of the United States when he/she signs a bill.

So what? They don't lose their first amendment rights. (Perhaps you don't understand the first amendment).

and all government employees have the right of free speech, as long as such speech is to address public-political issues (e.g. an employee is not free to bad mouth his employer or use speech to create a hostile work environment). The denial of services of Rowan County residents is not a violation of the first amendment (people can complain all they like about her closure of marriage licences), it was a violation of a lawful requirement of her job. It may also have been illegal discrimination under the color of claimed equal treatment (although I find this argument weaker).

None the less, as an employee, under State law, she is entitled to protection of her freedom of conscience and entitled to religious accommodation (if it is not unduly burdensome or harmful to her office's mission). IF she were a federal employee (official), then she would be entitled to the same under federal law.

Kim Davis, citizen, is protected in the same way and to the same degree any other citizen is protected. But the County Clerk of Rowan County, Kentucky does not have the right or legal authority to refuse to carry out the duties of his/her office. No elected official has that right.
Well, they do have that right under limited circumstances. They can quit, and they can refuse some duties when, under the law, it is permitted. They also have the right to refuse to execute unlawful acts, without fear of removal or punishment. I support same-sex civil unions but she happens to be correct.
 
She is a government employee:.


That attempted to use her power as a government employee to impose her personal religious beliefs upon others.


Is there a part of this you're not getting?


The woman decided that since she held a certain religious position, her government office should conform to her wishes. The law was to take a back seat to her beliefs, and procedure and court decisions be damned. She was not exercising her freedom of religion at all. She was trying to make the government conform to her religion.
 
She is a government employee:.


That attempted to use her power as a government employee to impose her personal religious beliefs upon others.
Is there a part of this you're not getting?

The woman decided that since she held a certain religious position, her government office should conform to her wishes. The law was to take a back seat to her beliefs, and procedure and court decisions be damned. She was not exercising her freedom of religion at all. She was trying to make the government conform to her religion.

I have seen no evidence supporting your characterization. She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage. They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others. Any couple who entered the building could leave believing what they wish, having lost nothing. They entered single, they left single.

Moreover, of course an office is expected to conform to the bosses wishes. She did not wish any distribution of licensing material with her name on it and, as far as I know, the staff agreed with that. There is nothing "high handed" in her actions other than a willingness to defend, what she believes, to be a right to not express support for a sin in what she thought was a lawful manner (i.e. stop issuing licenses for anyone).

Of course, she did make a choice; to inconvenience applicants in order to protect her perceived rights. But if she thought it lawful and her rights far more important, it is not (on its face) unreasonable.
 
She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage.


Oh, well of course.


You are free, then, to quote the statute which grants the County Clerk's office the power to decide what is a "sin," and enforce it accordingly.
 
She isn't a government employee, and the term "official" isn't superfluous.

Kim Davis wasn't hired to do a job; she stood for election and won.

She is a government employee:

Generally, any individual who serves as a public official is an employee of the government for whom he or she serves. Therefore, the government entity is responsible for withholding and paying Federal income tax, social security and Medicare taxes, and issuing Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement, to a public official.
http://www.irs.gov/Government-Entit...sification-of-Elected-and-Appointed-Officials

She is an elected official. Her income tax might be withheld through the same means as that of a government employee, but her position within the government is fundamentally different from that of a person hired to do a job.

She was not hired. She was elected. She was not required to agree to terms of employment. She took an Oath of Office. That Oath was her pledge to fulfill the duties of her office to the best of her ability, and there is no such thing as an elected official in this country who gets to pick and choose which of his or her official duties he or she will perform.

She is an employee. Did I not tutor you sufficiently?

You call that tutoring? Don't quit your day job. :rolleyes:

I said "the first amendment exists to protect everyone's right to express belief and exercise religion. She is a government employee (an "official" or "officer" being a superfluous term)." So yes, her being "an official" is superfluous and irrelevant to her right, as an employee, to the first amendment rights of expression and religion. Why does that vex you?

She has rights of expression under the first amendment as a citizen. But she does not have the right to violate her Oath of Office as the duly elected and sworn County Clerk of Rowan County, Kentucky. And she does not have the right to require the official actions of the County Clerk's office conform to her religious practices.

However, I would be most amused if you alert other folks "standing for office" that they don't have free speech and religion rights if one of them wins: like Hillary, Donald, and Mr. Huckabee.

Ah, I think I see the problem.

You don't see the difference between a citizen acting as a citizen, and a citizen who is also an elected official acting in an official capacity. That or else you don't see a difference between being free to hold and express opinions and being free to act on them by way of wielding government authority over others and forcing them to conform to your religious practices.

So I suppose you think a state's Governor can order the DMV to no longer issue driver's licenses to women, a County Clerk can require men applying for a marriage license to have beards, and the head of the Department of Fish and Game can refuse to give hunting licenses to people who haven't made a pilgrimage to the Temple of Artemis, because of their first amendment rights.

She wasn't required to sign an agreement to abide by office policies or face possible termination of employment; she took an Oath of Office, specifically this one:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of _______ according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God." <link>

She cannot be fired. She can only be removed from office through an act of the Kentucky legislature or by failing to win re-election.
So what? How she becomes an employee, through election or appointment, or how she loses her job does not change her first amendment rights.

How she became part of the government does not change any of the rights she has as a citizen. But her rights do not include a right to violate her Oath of Office. If she thinks she has that right under the first amendment, that just goes to show how ignorant she is.

As an aside, I don't see much point in quoting the oath. She believes she is following the Constitution, the Commonwealth of Kentucky's Constitution, and Kentucky law. In current Kentucky law, marriage is only between a man and a woman AND certifying a same sex marriage is punishable.

She never said that. That line of reasoning came from someone else entirely. Kim Davis plainly stated she would not issue marriage licenses because she was following "God's law". Any other position isn't hers.

She has the power to certify that an applicant has met the legal requirements to conduct certain business and enter into certain legal agreements in Rowan County. She represents the government, and in some ways she is the government.
When she acts in that capacity, she is an approving authority - just as is the President of the United States when he/she signs a bill.

So what? They don't lose their first amendment rights. (Perhaps you don't understand the first amendment).

and all government employees have the right of free speech, as long as such speech is to address public-political issues (e.g. an employee is not free to bad mouth his employer or use speech to create a hostile work environment). The denial of services of Rowan County residents is not a violation of the first amendment (people can complain all they like about her closure of marriage licences), it was a violation of a lawful requirement of her job. It may also have been illegal discrimination under the color of claimed equal treatment (although I find this argument weaker).

None the less, as an employee, under State law, she is entitled to protection of her freedom of conscience and entitled to religious accommodation (if it is not unduly burdensome or harmful to her office's mission). IF she were a federal employee (official), then she would be entitled to the same under federal law.

Kim Davis, citizen, is protected in the same way and to the same degree any other citizen is protected. But the County Clerk of Rowan County, Kentucky does not have the right or legal authority to refuse to carry out the duties of his/her office. No elected official has that right.
Well, they do have that right under limited circumstances. They can quit, and they can refuse some duties when, under the law, it is permitted. They also have the right to refuse to execute unlawful acts, without fear of removal or punishment. I support same-sex civil unions but she happens to be correct.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of _______ according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God."

Yes, she can resign her office. The law allows that. If the law allows her to decline to perform a specific duty, she can do that, too. And she is required by her Oath to refrain from doing something illegal. So all three of your suggestions are in compliance with her Oath of Office.

As long as she holds that office, she is bound by law to fulfill her Oath to perform her official duties. If she can't do that in good conscience, then she has a choice to make between her conscience and her paycheck.

ETA: I'm in favor of reasonable accommodations for employees, but I suspect my definition of reasonable might be different from yours. But when it comes to elected office, I don't believe in changing the official duties to suit the office holderl.

The official duties of the County Clerk do not and should not change depending on who holds the office. If the Clerk's duty is to certify when two people meet the legal requirements for marriage, then she has to certify it no matter how she feels about the people themselves.
 
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They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others.

Of course they used force, not to impose a belief on others, but to deny civil rights to others.

Any couple who entered the building could leave believing what they wish, having lost nothing.

They were denied their civil rights to obtain a marriage license from their home county.

They entered single, they left single.

They would have left single with a marriage license, too. What they left without was a marriage licence.

It staggers me that you think they've suffered no harm. That's like going into the DMV to renew your license and being denied the opportunity to renew your license, and then you claiming that you've 'lost nothing' by being denied the right to renew your license.

Moreover, of course an office is expected to conform to the bosses wishes. She did not wish any distribution of licensing material with her name on it and, as far as I know, the staff agreed with that. There is nothing "high handed" in her actions other than a willingness to defend, what she believes, to be a right to not express support for a sin in what she thought was a lawful manner (i.e. stop issuing licenses for anyone).

Then she ought to have resigned. Why did she not resign?

Of course, she did make a choice; to inconvenience applicants in order to protect her perceived rights. But if she thought it lawful and her rights far more important, it is not (on its face) unreasonable.

Are you telling me you think it is reasonable that an employee can refuse to perform duties as part of their job description and demand their employer allow that?
 
That attempted to use her power as a government employee to impose her personal religious beliefs upon others.
Is there a part of this you're not getting?

The woman decided that since she held a certain religious position, her government office should conform to her wishes. The law was to take a back seat to her beliefs, and procedure and court decisions be damned. She was not exercising her freedom of religion at all. She was trying to make the government conform to her religion.

I have seen no evidence supporting your characterization. She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage. They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others.
No words. They should have sent a smilie. :confused:

You can't possibly believe that.

Moreover, of course an office is expected to conform to the bosses wishes. She did not wish any distribution of licensing material with her name on it and, as far as I know, the staff agreed with that. There is nothing "high handed" in her actions other than a willingness to defend, what she believes, to be a right to not express support for a sin in what she thought was a lawful manner (i.e. stop issuing licenses for anyone).
The First Amendment protects citizens from this exact behavior of Government... the quasi-issuing of religious edicts.

Of course, she did make a choice; to inconvenience applicants in order to protect her perceived rights. But if she thought it lawful and her rights far more important, it is not (on its face) unreasonable.
Her personal religious right to worship as she chooses does not in any way supercede her responsibility as an elected official to not intercede in the religious life of the citizens she is serving.
 
That attempted to use her power as a government employee to impose her personal religious beliefs upon others.
Is there a part of this you're not getting?

The woman decided that since she held a certain religious position, her government office should conform to her wishes. The law was to take a back seat to her beliefs, and procedure and court decisions be damned. She was not exercising her freedom of religion at all. She was trying to make the government conform to her religion.

I have seen no evidence supporting your characterization. She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage. They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others. Any couple who entered the building could leave believing what they wish, having lost nothing. They entered single, they left single.

Moreover, of course an office is expected to conform to the bosses wishes. She did not wish any distribution of licensing material with her name on it and, as far as I know, the staff agreed with that. There is nothing "high handed" in her actions other than a willingness to defend, what she believes, to be a right to not express support for a sin in what she thought was a lawful manner (i.e. stop issuing licenses for anyone).

Of course, she did make a choice; to inconvenience applicants in order to protect her perceived rights. But if she thought it lawful and her rights far more important, it is not (on its face) unreasonable.

So if a Muslim at the DMV office refused to give licenses to women because it is against his religion, he is not imposing Islam on the rest of the community?

Fascinating. This sounds remarkably like the kinds of arguments Muslim extremists make.
 
She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage.

A couple of issues:
  1. Her employees were not willing participants. She was imposing her religious behavior upon them.
  2. She is actively preventing people from practicing their religion.

They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others. Any couple who entered the building could leave believing what they wish, having lost nothing. They entered single, they left single.
They lost the right to marry and the benefits that that brings. They have standing and sued for the right to marry. They were denied service based upon a government officials religious belief.

Your argument is the same if we had a Muslim meat inspector who refused to approve any non-Halal meat to be eaten. By your logic he is not hurting anyone because no one could get meat.

Moreover, of course an office is expected to conform to the bosses wishes. She did not wish any distribution of licensing material with her name on it and, as far as I know, the staff agreed with that.
Please post the staff statements from each individual from her staff. Your belief is worthless unless you can show that the staff actually made statements to this effect. Much of what we know from staff statement show that beyond her son, few if any staff agreed with her.

Of course, she did make a choice; to inconvenience applicants in order to protect her perceived rights.
No, she denied them the rights and benefits of marriage. Their rights. There were many other ways she could have practiced her beliefs without denying others their rights and privileges.
 
Max, the woman is a fucking cunt. She's the modern version of George Wallace in Little Rock.
 
I have seen no evidence supporting your characterization. She and her employees have said they were not issuing marriage licenses to anyone in order to avoid facilitating the sin of homosexual union in marriage. They were refusing to participate, not "imposing" any belief upon others.
Of course that ignores the obvious reality that their "refusal to participate" is religiously based and results in couples being unable to get married in their own county. Moreover, by that logic, there was no imposition on Ms. Davis's "beliefs" by issuing marriage licenses to homosexual couples.

Ms. Davis is simply wrong. Her duty as a county clerk is to obey the laws. She refuses to do so. The reasons for her doing so are irrelevant.

And, in order to avoid the legal charge of discrimination, her refusal to issue marriage licenses to all, she is using her religious beliefs to inconvenience all couples seeking to get married in that county by her refusal to issue marriage licenses to all couples while hiding by her alleged religious beliefs.

All in all, Ms. Davis is a narcissistic bigot. Which explains her attraction of a sizable minority in the USA.
 
"They entered single, they left single", therefore they've suffered nothing, lost nothing? They've been ostracized, shunned, demonized by an elected official. Discrimination and out-group shaming leave devastating damage. Try to imagine being black and enduring the Jim Crow century. The sickening feature of KD's ilk is that she/they pretend to be following a god of love and mercy.
 
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