laughing dog
Contributor
I want to thank Derec to alerting us to the existence of left wing terrorism. I await the next installment where he gives examples of existence of little old ladies cursing.
Me too.I agree that it is a shame that the old public library was destroyed. I love old buildings.
Not sure how familiar you are with Atlanta, but we do have a lot of greenspace. We are kind of known for it.I disagree that 85 acres is insignificant. Given its location, it really could be important for flood mitigation. A large city such as Atlanta really does need all the parks and green spaces it can get.
I am sure it does, to a point. But as I said, Atlanta is already well known for our trees.Not only does it improve air quality but also quality of life for everyone. As quality of life goes up, criminal activity decreases.
Of course it is.No, building 'villages' so that cops can learn to conduct raids is NOT normal police training.
Not necessarily. I have noticed the trend to call everything that goes beyond officer Barney Fife as "militarized police" but that is not so.It IS military training.
Even if police chases are limited, you want a officers who are well trained in conducting these chases.More police departments are limiting police chases to violent felony suspects due to the danger to the public of such chases.
I do not generally watch FOX News. And while PBS does some good reporting, they also have a left-wing bias. And this article wasn't even good reporting.PBS is considered the most reliable, most trusted, least biased news source. Maybe quit watching Fox?
Not even true.AJC said:Decatur-based civil rights attorneys Brian Spears and Jeff Filipovits plan to hold a press conference Monday morning. They and Teran’s family are calling on the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to release more information about the incident, which they called “the first time any environmental activist in the United States has been killed by the government.”
AJC said:According to the GBI, which is investigating the incident, Georgia state troopers conducting a Jan. 18 “clearing operation” near the training center site came across Teran and other activists camped in the woods. Teran is accused of shooting “without warning,” wounding a trooper, before several of the injured officer’s colleagues returned fire.
11 Alive said:After an initial on-site environmental inspection and the guidelines are approved, "land disturbance activities may commence."
Officials said the agreement would contain several provisions for preserving parts of the South River Forest, which has been occupied for more than a year by protesters in tree encampments seeking to stop the building of the facility.
Dickens and Thurmond said the facility will total 85 acres, which was previously known, with the rest of a roughly 380-acre parcel of the forest owned by the City of Atlanta set for preservation. That was also previously promised by officials involved with the project, though some details emerged in Tuesday's press conference - with Dickens promising trails, park lands and ball fields, in particular.
The discussion on here tends to ignore/downplay/excuse left-wing violence, incl. left-wing terrorism.I want to thank Derec to alerting us to the existence of left wing terrorism.
The discussion here ignores the wetness of water.The discussion on here tends to ignore/downplay/excuse left-wing violence, incl. left-wing terrorism.I want to thank Derec to alerting us to the existence of left wing terrorism.
The wetness is to water as terrorism is to Right Wing Extremism. It might also fit with left wing extremism, but that is so relatively rare in America today, as to be negligible. Derec can bleat and complain all he wants, but can’t change the facts.The discussion here ignores the wetness of water.The discussion on here tends to ignore/downplay/excuse left-wing violence, incl. left-wing terrorism.I want to thank Derec to alerting us to the existence of left wing terrorism.
Every green space counts. This one is not being sacrificed for housing but to create a space for military type training of the police. Paid for by corporate donors. Not do the police will be able to do a better job of serving and protecting the people but to better serve and protect the corporations.Me too.I agree that it is a shame that the old public library was destroyed. I love old buildings.
Not sure how familiar you are with Atlanta, but we do have a lot of greenspace. We are kind of known for it.I disagree that 85 acres is insignificant. Given its location, it really could be important for flood mitigation. A large city such as Atlanta really does need all the parks and green spaces it can get.
Nevertheless, as population increases and new housing is needed, that greenspace is at risk. But not primarily due to a single training facility.
As Atlanta grows, its trademark tree canopy suffers
On a citywide scale, 85 acres is pretty insignificant. It's 0.13 sq. miles. And note that the 85 acres of "Cop City" are far less than the wooded area north of Constitution Ave.
From here, where you can get more info and more maps about the project.
Add to that the bigger South River Forest south of Constitution Ave (and bounded to the southeast and west-southwest by I-285 and commercial properties off Moreland Ave. respectively).
Browse the Google Maps link I posted above. Note also the Lake Charlotte Nature Preserve just west of Moreland Ave., within the City of Atlanta (the area we are talking about here is just outside the city, in unincorporated DeKalb County).
If you want to blame anybody for threatening most of the wooded area, blame the movie studio that wants to develop both the Intrenchment Creek Park and the South River Forest. Not the police.
I am sure it does, to a point. But as I said, Atlanta is already well known for our trees.Not only does it improve air quality but also quality of life for everyone. As quality of life goes up, criminal activity decreases.
Of course it is.No, building 'villages' so that cops can learn to conduct raids is NOT normal police training.
Even a city as lefty as Portland has a "scenario village" in their training facility.
Not necessarily. I have noticed the trend to call everything that goes beyond officer Barney Fife as "militarized police" but that is not so.It IS military training.
Even if police chases are limited, you want a officers who are well trained in conducting these chases.More police departments are limiting police chases to violent felony suspects due to the danger to the public of such chases.
As far as chases being limited, Atlanta PD instituted a "no chase" policy in 2020 (pre-riots) under Erika Shields. A year later, they had to relax it.
But again, even if limited, you want police officers to well trained to conduct them.
I do not generally watch FOX News. And while PBS does some good reporting, they also have a left-wing bias. And this article wasn't even good reporting.PBS is considered the most reliable, most trusted, least biased news source. Maybe quit watching Fox?
[Repost from the Tyre Nichols thread]
From the comments section of the Daily Wire article reporting this (apologies in advance);What makes you think this is left wing terrorism?
Or even terrorism.What makes you think this is left wing terrorism?
And neither should they be released.Fox5 said:The site of Atlanta's future Public Safety Training Facility infamously called 'Cop City' by protestors is now on lockdown as smoke and flames were put out, and the area was secured. FOX 5 saw SWAT reporting to the scene as night fell.
Just before 8 p.m., a FOX 5 reporter on the ground said she heard something that resembled the sound of fireworks or gunshots, but has not yet had that detail confirmed by officials.
Police have not released the number of protestors arrested during or after the incident.
These rioters/arsonists/terrorists should not be referred to as "protestors" by the media.There was a massive police presence along Key Road in southeast Atlanta early Sunday evening as FOX 5 was told protestors were actively clashing with officers. Officials said at least one construction vehicle was set on fire.
[...]
A Georgia State Trooper told FOX 5 photographer Billy Heath that rocks, sticks and even a Molotov cocktail were thrown at police.
This is not protesting.NY Times said:Hundreds of activists breached the site of a proposed police and fire training center in Atlanta’s wooded outskirts on Sunday, burning police and construction vehicles and a trailer, and setting off fireworks toward officers stationed nearby.
The Atlanta Police Department said 35 people had been detained, adding that agitators also threw large rocks, bricks and Molotov cocktails.
Why the hell not? Whoever ordered them to stand down should be fired.As vehicles were set ablaze, law enforcement officers looked on and initially did not intervene.
Tensions have escalated between police officers and protesters over the forested area in recent months. Environmental advocates want the woods — which span more than 1,000 acres — preserved as one of the region’s most significant green spaces.
Every green space can't be preserved or these could not be any development. Even in the South River Forest area, a lot more of the woods is in danger from the movie studio. But the far Left hates the police, and so they attack the training center. The woods are only a fig leaf. Especially since the site is not virgin forest anyway, but an overgrown former prison farm.Every green space counts.
What do you (and other anti-police activists) even mean by "military type training"? It will be fairly typical police-type training. Which includes armed operations, sure. But that does not make it "military type". There will also be firefighters training there.This one is not being sacrificed for housing but to create a space for military type training of the police.
Partially. But so what?Paid for by corporate donors.
What evidence do you have for the claim that the training police will receive here will not be used to serve and protect regular people?Not do the police will be able to do a better job of serving and protecting the people but to better serve and protect the corporations.
Not the training center. The activists are all kinds of wrong, as I have shown above.It’s all kinds of wrong.
In reality 85 acres on the outskirts of Atlanta, which were a prison farm when you were a kid, will not change the city much. Housing and commercial development changes what the city looks and feels like a lot more over the years and decades.I haven’t been to Atlanta since I was a kid, so it’s been a long time. I’ve heard how pretty a city it is, nothing should be allowed to change that. Really.
Paramilitary training of police officers has no benefit in terms of efficiency or effiacy of policing:Every green space can't be preserved or these could not be any development. Even in the South River Forest area, a lot more of the woods is in danger from the movie studio. But the far Left hates the police, and so they attack the training center. The woods are only a fig leaf. Especially since the site is not virgin forest anyway, but an overgrown former prison farm.Every green space counts.
What do you (and other anti-police activists) even mean by "military type training"? It will be fairly typical police-type training. Which includes armed operations, sure. But that does not make it "military type". There will also be firefighters training there.This one is not being sacrificed for housing but to create a space for military type training of the police.
Partially. But so what?Paid for by corporate donors.
What evidence do you have for the claim that the training police will receive here will not be used to serve and protect regular people?Not do the police will be able to do a better job of serving and protecting the people but to better serve and protect the corporations.
As far as corporations, real people have shares of, and work for, corporations. And they make goods and services real people want and buy. They do a lot more good than violent anti-police activists whose only actions are to destroy. And for all their lofty claims to be pro-environment, all they do is litter in the woods and set vehicles and trailers ablaze, which releases pollutants.
Not the training center. The activists are all kinds of wrong, as I have shown above.It’s all kinds of wrong.
In reality 85 acres on the outskirts of Atlanta, which were a prison farm when you were a kid, will not change the city much. Housing and commercial development changes what the city looks and feels like a lot more over the years and decades.I haven’t been to Atlanta since I was a kid, so it’s been a long time. I’ve heard how pretty a city it is, nothing should be allowed to change that. Really.
Consistent with anecdotal evidence (11), militarized police units are more often deployed in areas with high concentrations of African Americans, even after adjusting for local crime rates and other community traits. But I find no firm evidence that SWAT teams lower an agency’s violent crime rate or the rates at which officers are killed or assaulted. Using survey experiments, I show that citizens react negatively to the appearance of militarized police units in news reports and become less willing to fund police agencies and less supportive of having police patrols in their own neighborhoods.
Given the concentration of deployments in communities of color, where trust in law enforcement and government at large is already depressed (14, 38), the routine use of militarized police tactics by local agencies threatens to increase the historic tensions between marginalized groups and the state with no detectable public safety benefit. While SWAT teams arguably remain a necessary tool for violent emergency situations, restricting their use to those rare events may improve perceptions of police with little or no safety loss.
To be sure, federal military-surplus transfers like those through the Defense Department’s 1033 Program do little good, and much harm: Police departments obtaining used Army filing cabinets at cost isn’t cause for concern, but there’s no earthly reason for small-town cops to wear military fatigues, ride around in mine-resistant Humvees, or carry bayonets. Studies suggest that police departments that receive such equipment see no measurable improvement in officer safety or crime rates, but greater quantities do seem to correlate with higher rates of officer-involved shootings and reduced public trust.
These rioters/arsonists/terrorists should not be referred to as "protestors" by the media.
Grinning goons of Antifa: Twenty-three domestic terrorists - including attorney for Southern Poverty Law Center - are charged after storming and torching Atlanta's 'Cop City'
Propaganda sheetThese rioters/arsonists/terrorists should not be referred to as "protestors" by the media.
The Daily Mail gets it right;
Grinning goons of Antifa: Twenty-three domestic terrorists - including attorney for Southern Poverty Law Center - are charged after storming and torching Atlanta's 'Cop City'
Daily Mail
DM may be low quality in general, but their description of these terrorists as "goons of Antifa" is certainly much more fitting than mainstream media misidentifying them as "protestors". Although they are more smirking than grinning goons.Propaganda sheet
Paramilitary training of police officers has no benefit in terms of efficiency or effiacy of policing:
Of course, that is always the best kind of evidence.Jonathan Mummolo said:Consistent with anecdotal evidence (11),
So even Mummolo realizes that is a necessary tool. Which means SWAT units have to train. Duh!Jonathan Mummolo said:While SWAT teams arguably remain a necessary tool for violent emergency situations, restricting their use to those rare events may improve perceptions of police with little or no safety loss.
That is a completely biased and frankly fictional account of what happened in Ferguson. Police did not react to peaceful marches, but to violent riots where many businesses were vandalized, burned to the ground and/or looted. The QT was looted and went up in flames on the very first night of the rioting!Jonathan Mummolo said:As thousands marched in Ferguson, MO to protest the police shooting of Michael Brown in 2014, many Americans were surprised and alarmed by the character of law enforcement’s response. For days, national news networks broadcast images of armored vehicles, snipers taking aim at unarmed Black and brown civilians, and officers clad in battle armor, deployed by state and local police agencies (1).
You can make an account with your email address, then it lets you read some articles. Probably a very limited number per month, but still.Hopefully you will be able to read the article. The Atlantic often blocks non-subscribers. I was surprised I could read this:Stop Training Police Like They’re Joining the Military
If policing is to change, the spotlight must turn toward police academies, where new recruits are first inculcated into the folkways of their profession.www.theatlantic.com
I have never seen police with bayonets. Certainly not in ATLPD.The Atlantic said:To be sure, federal military-surplus transfers like those through the Defense Department’s 1033 Program do little good, and much harm: Police departments obtaining used Army filing cabinets at cost isn’t cause for concern, but there’s no earthly reason for small-town cops to wear military fatigues, ride around in mine-resistant Humvees, or carry bayonets.
Studies like Mummolo's, who called rioters "marchers"?The Atlantic said:Studies suggest
I do not see how any of what you posted challenges the fact that police training is necessary, including training for armed raids and chases, and that police training facilities like this one are nothing unusual.My computer is being glitchy right now and I'm short on time. I'd recommend skipping the Atlantic article and just clicking on the links provided in the portion I quoted.
I can't tell if you took the time to read all the links contained in the Atlantic article. They are much better. Sorry that my elderly computer is not being as cooperative as I would like and I couldn't provide quotes from those links.Paramilitary training of police officers has no benefit in terms of efficiency or effiacy of policing:
Again you with loaded words like "paramilitary". Even if we assume that Mummolo is correct in his assessment of the overuse of SWAT in Maryland (subject of that study) and that is transferrable to other states like Georgia (two big ifs!), police still do need to, in some circumstances, engage in armed raids, including SWAT raids. Therefore, police have to train for that.
As I posted before, even in cities as crunchy as Portland, OR, police train using mockups of buildings. That is not controversial outside the ACAB/FTP/Defund/Abolish circles.
Of course, that is always the best kind of evidence.Jonathan Mummolo said:Consistent with anecdotal evidence (11),
So even Mummolo realizes that is a necessary tool. Which means SWAT units have to train. Duh!Jonathan Mummolo said:While SWAT teams arguably remain a necessary tool for violent emergency situations, restricting their use to those rare events may improve perceptions of police with little or no safety loss.
One thing though with these politically charged studies is the bias of the researcher. Also from the paper:
That is a completely biased and frankly fictional account of what happened in Ferguson. Police did not react to peaceful marches, but to violent riots where many businesses were vandalized, burned to the ground and/or looted. The QT was looted and went up in flames on the very first night of the rioting!Jonathan Mummolo said:As thousands marched in Ferguson, MO to protest the police shooting of Michael Brown in 2014, many Americans were surprised and alarmed by the character of law enforcement’s response. For days, national news networks broadcast images of armored vehicles, snipers taking aim at unarmed Black and brown civilians, and officers clad in battle armor, deployed by state and local police agencies (1).
So I do not know how much credence I want to give him re his claim that SWAT is overused in Maryland.
You can make an account with your email address, then it lets you read some articles. Probably a very limited number per month, but still.Hopefully you will be able to read the article. The Atlantic often blocks non-subscribers. I was surprised I could read this:Stop Training Police Like They’re Joining the Military
If policing is to change, the spotlight must turn toward police academies, where new recruits are first inculcated into the folkways of their profession.www.theatlantic.com
You were probably able to read it because you previously made an account, and you just remained logged on on your computer.
In any case, I was able to read it and oh boy. This girl is tripping! She objects even to police using uniforms, and having a defined chain of command with defined ranks with names reminiscent of military ones - sergeant, lieutenant, captain. Some departments even have majors and colonels.
Is that enough to make police "militarized" for you as well? Or do you agree that Rosa Brooks is taking it way too far?
I have never seen police with bayonets. Certainly not in ATLPD.The Atlantic said:To be sure, federal military-surplus transfers like those through the Defense Department’s 1033 Program do little good, and much harm: Police departments obtaining used Army filing cabinets at cost isn’t cause for concern, but there’s no earthly reason for small-town cops to wear military fatigues, ride around in mine-resistant Humvees, or carry bayonets.
Armored vehicles can be useful, not least for crowd control which has sadly been very much needed in recent years. Mine-resistant ones? In a major city like Atlanta you'd expect the danger of a terrorist attack, so police should be equipped to engage with explosives as well. Note that Atlanta is certainly not a small town, so that objection falls flat here.
Studies like Mummolo's, who called rioters "marchers"?The Atlantic said:Studies suggest
I do not see how any of what you posted challenges the fact that police training is necessary, including training for armed raids and chases, and that police training facilities like this one are nothing unusual.My computer is being glitchy right now and I'm short on time. I'd recommend skipping the Atlantic article and just clicking on the links provided in the portion I quoted.
The opponents of the training facility tend to be extremist "abolish the police" types, vast majority of whom come from out of state.
As an example of the extremism of these activists, one of the terrorists arrested wrote about "prison abolition" on this website. Xir was also arrested in 2020 during George Floyd riots.
By the way, James/Jamie is a 2nd year law student at UNC. Which raises the question: is a felony charge grounds for expulsion or would xir have to be convicted first? And aren't law school classes in session? How did xe find the time to run around woods in Georgia anyway?