Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

Why did you do that to your child since you disagree with it so much?

My trans child is an adult, and has to make their own decisions. I’m concerned they’re making the wrong decisions, but I might be wrong about that.

 

[Toni]

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

Why did you do that to your child since you disagree with it so much?

My trans child is an adult, and has to make their own decisions. I’m concerned they’re making the wrong decisions, but I might be wrong about that.

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

Why did you do that to your child since you disagree with it so much?

My trans child is an adult, and has to make their own decisions. I’m concerned they’re making the wrong decisions, but I might be wrong about that.

I agree.

I can imagine that it is difficult to know how to react and what will help or what will harm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do.

You just ignore the evidence.

Except I see repeated references to very low quality evidence, no unquestionable cases.

And reality has taught me that a sea of low quality data almost always means false.

What I see is the consistent handwaving of solid evidence when it doesn't support the trans activist ideology.

Simple things,
Like sex is a concrete physical characteristic.
In humans, sex is binary.
Sex can be ascertained at birth with 99+% accuracy.
That some important aspect of humans, like physique and instincts and psychology are consistently different between the two sexes.

Some related aspects of the human situation are different. Gender is not a concrete characteristic, it's an abstract characteristic. It really is a spectrum. Sex abnormalities are also a spectrum, some barely get noticed while others seriously interfere with having a normal life.
Tom

You're not making sense here.

I'm talking about the harm caused by the two approaches.

All the evidence for harm caused by female presenting people in the women's is iffy.

But we have solid evidence for harm caused by having to use the bathroom that doesn't match your presentation.

 

[TomC]

I'm talking about the harm caused by the two approaches.

What are you talking about?

I'm not talking about two approaches. I'm talking about two different things.
Sex is one thing, gender is another thing.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

IMO, you and Bomb are looking very very hard to find an excuse to keep some people out because they do not ‘fit’ into your idea of worthy.

You seem unaware that a world exists outside your narrow life ( we all have narrow life experience) experience and anything out of your experience does not bear examining.

IMO, you don't need to look at all to find ad hominems to use against me, since you evidently feel no compunctions about just making something up. I said nothing about who was or wasn't worthy. The kids are being kept out because <explanation you refuse to think about snipped>

The government is we, the people. At least in the US. For now, anyways.

If the government were we the people then Congress would have term limits, and the other changes we the people want and Congress doesn't want. But that's a philosophy dispute, and you're not really here to debate philosophy, are you?

I haven’t made up anything about you. I’ve drawn conclusions, sure and

... and those conclusions are conclusions you just made up. You said I'm looking to find an excuse to keep some people out because they do not ‘fit’ into my idea of worthy, and I quoted you, and you quoted it back to me, and you just made it up. You did not say it because of any intellectually honest reason for believing it's true. I've certainly given you no reason to think it of me. You said it because of malice. Maybe you feel malicious toward me because I'm an infidel and you're a true believer, or maybe you feel malicious toward me because of all the times I've publicly scolded you over your endless poor behavior here; it hardly matters which. What matters is that you react to pushback with trumped-up ad hominem arguments. This is a recurring pattern with you.

Wow. I just cannot believe how openly some people think that everyone having access to good education, good food and healthcare and decent, safe housing and decent jobs is hindering rich people from having good things.

Y’all aren’t capitalists. Y’all are feudalists and think of yourself as at least minor royalty. You have to protect what is yours by putting up big walls and moats. You are soooo insecure that you can’t feel good about yourselves unless someone else lets you know they are struggling. You rely entirely upon some sense of superiority over others in order to feel ok about yourselves.

That’s some real <expletive deleted> up <expletive deleted>.

You just made that up. Loren and I gave you zero reason to think we're feudalists and not capitalists. You couldn't refute our arguments so you resorted to personal attacks. You understand, don't you, that ad hominem arguments are fallacies? As Diderot and Sanger's love child might have put it, no gods, no masters, no priests, no kings.

Personally, I'd love it if everyone had access to good education, good food and healthcare and decent, safe housing and decent jobs. I'd love it so much that I've given more than five seconds of thought to what it would take to make it happen. So why haven't you?!? You want it enough to slander infidels for it, but not enough to think for it.

Good education, good food and healthcare and decent, safe housing and decent jobs are not naturally evolved plants growing wild in the forest; they are engineered products of human economic activity. They only exist at all because individual humans have reasons to produce them. The systemic barriers to equal access that your childish cartoon claims are unjust are in fact essential components of the social machinery that creates good education, good food and healthcare and decent, safe housing and decent jobs in the first place. That's not feudalism. Heck, that's not even capitalism -- it's just reality. Even Lenin figured it out, after less than a year in power. You are proposing to beautify a skyscraper by dynamiting its first floor, because you find it ugly.

You're a scientist; you should be up for some math. Ballpark estimate, how much money do you think it would cost to give everyone good education, good food and healthcare and decent, safe housing and decent jobs?

 

[Toni]

We do.

You just ignore the evidence.

Except I see repeated references to very low quality evidence, no unquestionable cases.

And reality has taught me that a sea of low quality data almost always means false.

What I see is the consistent handwaving of solid evidence when it doesn't support the trans activist ideology.

Simple things,
Like sex is a concrete physical characteristic.
In humans, sex is binary.
Sex can be ascertained at birth with 99+% accuracy.
That some important aspect of humans, like physique and instincts and psychology are consistently different between the two sexes.

Some related aspects of the human situation are different. Gender is not a concrete characteristic, it's an abstract characteristic. It really is a spectrum. Sex abnormalities are also a spectrum, some barely get noticed while others seriously interfere with having a normal life.
Tom

You're not making sense here.

I'm talking about the harm caused by the two approaches.

All the evidence for harm caused by female presenting people in the women's is iffy.

But we have solid evidence for harm caused by having to use the bathroom that doesn't match your presentation.

I agree that it is harmful for individuals to be forced to use facilities that are at odds with their gender identity. It can often be dangerous as well. I am 100% against anyone being subjected to violence.

But it is also impossible to ignore the FACT that individuals claiming to be trans (written without judging whether they are or are pretending to gain access to victims) have indeed exploited the access to girls/women’s facilities and have physically harmed women and girls. I know you don’t read links but upthread, I linked a news piece about a teenager who presented as a trans girl raping a girl in the girl’s restroom. They had done so at a previous school as well—which boggles my mind that they were not being held in the first crime or were allowed to enroll in a second school and again given access to their preferred victims.

I am also aware that there have been rare instances when other individuals have said they were trans and have assaulted other women. Yes, those are rare occurrences. But it happens.

Unfortunately, rape and sexual assault is not rare. Trauma from sexual assault is not rare. Victims of sexual assault do not need to be further traumatized by male appearing bodies in their intimate spaces.

Fear of such repeated trauma interferes with healing from those traumas. It interferes with people fully participating in life, in making use of public facilities for healthy exercise and classes that help their physical and mental health.

Speaking for myself, there are times and situations where I have zero issue using all gender bathrooms, probably no situation where given a choice I would choose an all gender locker room or dressing room, and some times/situations when I’d much prefer to use a woman’s only facility.

If I still had a young daughter, I’d be much more concerned. It was difficult enough when she was a young girl in middle school and sometimes attracted attention from males much too old for her—when she was dressed in jeans and a t shirt—modestly fitted. She’s an adult now and has had to learn to deal with unwanted attentions from men for some time now.

I do not think men or boys realize how difficult and upsetting it can be for girls and women to not be able to just do normal things like walk to the movie theater or on a walking path around a lake—dressed in clothes like you stepped out of a JC Penny or Lands End catalogue ( ie modestly) because of unwanted and sometimes disgusting attention from males. Or worse. Of course for a minority of males, that is the point: to make females uncomfortable or afraid.

Men can go jogging shirtless and in very short shorts and not worry about comments or more from women or, usually, other men and boys. Women cannot.

While men and boys can be victims of sexual assault, the perpetrators are usually also make. Not always, but usually.

Thought exercise: imagine being a skinny ( or fat—or perfectly proportioned!) 13 year old boy who has to shower in front of an , unpleasant middle aged female gym teacher and her 3 assistants. Or shower in the girl’s locker room. It is almost certain that any such 13 year old boy would feel uncomfortable. A lot of grown men would as well.

We’ve heard that all gender bathrooms are like painting targets in the backs of trans or queer kids. That is honestly not something I had considered. It’s horrible and I can understand why that’s not the great, neutral situation that I thought it was.

But allowing male bodies in female only spaces is also like painting targets on every female bodies person who uses those spaces. Sure, only a minority of trans individuals would ever harm another girl or woman but I will tell you with absolute certainty: It is impossible to know who will will not try to harm you. Most victims of sexual assault are assaulted by someone they know and trust

So what is YOUR solution, Loren?

 

[TomC]

Sure, only a minority of trans individuals would ever harm another girl or woman but I will tell you with absolute certainty:

This is the biggest problem factor.
Only a small minority of people cause the bulk of the big problems.

Most guys are not any threat to women. We are too well socialized. We are not only safe, we'd be an asset to women's security in spaces like restrooms and public showers. But enough of us aren't to give women a very good reason to be suspicious of male strangers, especially the ones who are acting oddly, like using the women's spaces.

I wish reality was not that way, but it is.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But allowing male bodies in female only spaces is also like painting targets on every female bodies person who uses those spaces. Sure, only a minority of trans individuals would ever harm another girl or woman but I will tell you with absolute certainty: It is impossible to know who will will not try to harm you. Most victims of sexual assault are assaulted by someone they know and trust

So what is YOUR solution, Loren?

Loren's solution is that it is the cost of liberty, just like their support of the 2nd Amendment. It is black and white to them. The cost is the cost. 'Deal with it.'

Honestly and quite anecdotally, I'm a lot more worried about the generalized male dominated social dynamic, than a random transgender person in the bathroom, as it would impact my daughter's life. I'm much much more worried about my daughter being raped by a self-entitlement prick who'll never be formally accused, than by being attacked by some transgender person. Because the former happens all the damn time... and we are here complaining about gender and the threat that a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of the population are, relative to the threat of a notable percentage of nearly half the population is. I consider that prior background noise levels.

I get that female only spots are female only and the intersection of transgenders creates a conflict that needs some resolution so that both parties can have the privacy they both need. I also understand that we are supposed to be bickering and arguing over this relatively small thing, so that guys can continue getting away with sexual assaults against their victims.

 

[Toni]

Sure, only a minority of trans individuals would ever harm another girl or woman but I will tell you with absolute certainty:

This is the biggest problem factor.
Only a small minority of people cause the bulk of the big problems.

Most guys are not any threat to women. We are too well socialized. We are not only safe, we'd be an asset to women's security in spaces like restrooms and public showers. But enough of us aren't to give women a very good reason to be suspicious of male strangers, especially the ones who are acting oddly, like using the women's spaces.

I wish reality was not that way, but it is.
Tom

Unfortunately, it’s not a ‘small minority’ of guys who are a threat to women. One in three women have been victims of sexual assault. Those assaults are not committed by the same few hundred or hundred thousand males.

Personally, I think the one in three is somewhat low, based on conversations I’ve had with girls and women over the years. A lot of girls and women downplay the occasional unwelcome grabbed breast or crotch or the fact that the guy forced her to have sex because he paid for dinner or ‘over-reacted’ when she told him she was pregnant or leaving him. Or both. Most women do not report rape or sexual assault. No one I know has. I never did. In fact, I’ve been much, much more open about my experiences here than I have with anyone else, largely because this is anonymous and no one actually knows me IRL. When you think about the fact that most rapists are known to their victims, you can imagine the repercussions.

If you’ve been sexually assaulted it is difficult not to become hyper-vigilant. It is a complete mind- fuck when your assailant is someone you know, and perhaps are fond of or even love. Hyper vigilance can also lead to over-reacting.

 

[Toni]

But allowing male bodies in female only spaces is also like painting targets on every female bodies person who uses those spaces. Sure, only a minority of trans individuals would ever harm another girl or woman but I will tell you with absolute certainty: It is impossible to know who will will not try to harm you. Most victims of sexual assault are assaulted by someone they know and trust

So what is YOUR solution, Loren?

Loren's solution is that it is the cost of liberty, just like their support of the 2nd Amendment. It is black and white to them. The cost is the cost. 'Deal with it.'

Honestly and quite anecdotally, I'm a lot more worried about the generalized male dominated social dynamic, than a random transgender person in the bathroom, as it would impact my daughter's life. I'm much much more worried about my daughter being raped by a self-entitlement prick who'll never be formally accused, than by being attacked by some transgender person. Because the former happens all the damn time... and we are here complaining about gender and the threat that a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of the population are, relative to the threat of a notable percentage of nearly half the population is. I consider that prior background noise levels.

I get that female only spots are female only and the intersection of transgenders creates a conflict that needs some resolution so that both parties can have the privacy they both need. I also understand that we are supposed to be bickering and arguing over this relatively small thing, so that guys can continue getting away with sexual assaults against their victims.

Oh, I have virtually no fear that a trans person will assault a girl or woman. I know it’s more than possible and yes, the potential threat to your daughter from cis makes is much much much greater than from any trans person.

Yes, Loren’s POV is mostly black and white. But it’s also frosted with a heaping helping of “If it doesn’t bother me, it’s just not an issue.”

 

[TomC]

Unfortunately, it’s not a ‘small minority’ of guys who are a threat to women. One in three women have been victims of sexual assault. Those assaults are not committed by the same few hundred or hundred thousand males.

Yes it is.
You and I live in the USA. About 330,000,000 people.
Half are male. That's about 165M people. A million and a half of us males could be dangerous to women, and it's still a fraction of a percent of us.

It's a small percentage of males.

Then there's the males causing problems to females that they know. That's another huge problem. Spousal abuse, step family, etc. its huge as well.
I believe that it mostly revolves around male instincts and psychology. It's made worse by male entitlements, like using the women's restroom if they want to do so.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have a trans child.

No you don't.

 

[TomC]

I have a trans child.

No you don't.

Damn!
That's some shit mind reading.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have a trans child.

No you don't.

Damn!
That's some shit mind reading.
Tom

I suppose it could be a Nestor sort of Matt Gaetz moment. But I have my doubts.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately, it’s not a ‘small minority’ of guys who are a threat to women. One in three women have been victims of sexual assault. Those assaults are not committed by the same few hundred or hundred thousand males.

Yes it is.
You and I live in the USA. About 330,000,000 people.
Half are male. That's about 165M people. A million and a half of us males could be dangerous to women, and it's still a fraction of a percent of us.

It's a small percentage of males.

Then there's the males causing problems to females that they know. That's another huge problem. Spousal abuse, step family, etc. its huge as well.
I believe that it mostly revolves around male instincts and psychology. It's made worse by male entitlements, like using the women's restroom if they want to do so.
Tom

There are approximately 162 M males in the US. Something like 3% have admitted to rape. Which would be 4.86M men without accounting for those too young or too old to likely be a threat to other people--so, perhaps 3M confessed rapists--not convicted rapists but those who admitted to acts that would be considered rape. There are many kinds of sexual assault which are not rape: grabbing breasts or crotches, for example. It is unlikely that every male surveyed who actually committed rape actually admitted that they did something that could be considered rape.

It's still rape or sexual assault if you know the attacker. And often it's worse when it is someone you know.

 

[TomC]

I have a trans child.

No you don't.

Damn!
That's some shit mind reading.
Tom

I suppose it could be a Nestor sort of Matt Gaetz moment. But I have my doubts.

On the other hand, maybe @seanie knows more about his kid than you do.
Is it even possible, in your mind, that you are completely wrong?

Dumbass
Tom

 

[Politesse]

I tend to believe that Seanie and Emily have the trans relatives they claim. Why devote so much of their free time to arguing about this, otherwise?

 

[TomC]

I tend to believe that Seanie and Emily have the trans relatives they claim. Why devote so much of their free time to arguing about this, otherwise?

I don't have any trans relatives, as far as I know.

I still consider the issue important. Because I have female friends and relatives that the trans activists don't think matter enough to have rights or concerns. My female friends and relatives don't want males in the public restrooms and trans activists handwave their concerns. Because those women are " just culturally indoctrinated" or something.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

That's true, but anti-trans lobbying isn't a full time hobby for you, you've just been posting in this thread because it is here and you like to play the hero.

 

[TomC]

That's true, but anti-trans lobbying isn't a full time hobby for you, you've just been posting in this thread because it is here and you like to play the hero.

What anti-trans lobbying are you talking about?
WTF dude?
Did you run out of insults?
Tom