Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Toni]

Since trees can male, female or both, the sex is not binary. Clearly you have been kicked in the head multiple times.

Sex is still binary. True hermaphroditic species don't make sex anything other than binary in anisogamous species. Hell, we only know they're hermaphroditic *because* they have both a male reproductive system and a female reproductive system.

Thank you for explaining things this biologist already knew.

If you already know this, then why are you arguing that sex is somehow not binary? And if you already know this, why do you keep swapping out the noun that refers to reproductive systems within anisogamous species with the verb that means engaging in the act by which reproduction occurs?

Because sex means more than one thing and you keep talking about gametes instead of people. Sperm and ovum do not care about bathrooms or sports teams or even ejaculation, ovulation, fertilization or implantation. Because they are only single cells with haploid number of chromosomes ( usually).

 

[seanie]

Most of who are children?

What are you on about?

The trans kids primarily targeted for abuse by the laws you advocate for. Adults are allowed to simply transition if they have the means, and gave a fighting chance at living life largely as they please. They can dress themselves, arrange their own appearance, and preferentially choose safe businesses and institutions over those haunted by you and your "friends". Adults aren't as likely to play on sports teams, and they have much more freedom of movement in general. If one gym is bigoted, they can go to another that is more tolerant. If one mental health care facility refuses to help them, they can find another. Not that life is a picnic for any trans person in a Christofascist society, it most certainly is not, but adults do have a lot more leeway for avoiding unpleasant situations, and more freedom to find and form safe communities. So by the numbers it's mostly children, who have none of those advantages, that you're attacking and abusing. Trans youths are much easier to find, easier to hurt, and have a harder task ahead of them if they need to get out of a bad situation.

So you’re using confused children, who’ve been told lies by adults about sex being a spectrum, that you can born in the wrong body, that men can be women, and women can be men, to justify adult males being allowed into any female only space if they consider themselves female.

Good luck in any Supreme Court.

 

[seanie]

Because sex means more than one thing and you keep talking about gametes instead of people. Sperm and ovum do not care about bathrooms or sports teams or even ejaculation, ovulation, fertilization or implantation. Because they are only single cells with haploid number of chromosomes ( usually).

So, how do you think sporting categories should be organised?

Do you think men’s and women’s sports categories should be abolished?

 

[seanie]

Are you suggesting that because sperm and ovum don’t care about sports teams we shouldn’t either?

Because that would seem quite a silly position to take.

 

[seanie]

Like, really silly,

Monumentally silly.

 

[Politesse]

How polite.

 

[Toni]

Most of who are children?

What are you on about?

The trans kids primarily targeted for abuse by the laws you advocate for. Adults are allowed to simply transition if they have the means, and gave a fighting chance at living life largely as they please. They can dress themselves, arrange their own appearance, and preferentially choose safe businesses and institutions over those haunted by you and your "friends". Adults aren't as likely to play on sports teams, and they have much more freedom of movement in general. If one gym is bigoted, they can go to another that is more tolerant. If one mental health care facility refuses to help them, they can find another. Not that life is a picnic for any trans person in a Christofascist society, it most certainly is not, but adults do have a lot more leeway for avoiding unpleasant situations, and more freedom to find and form safe communities. So by the numbers it's mostly children, who have none of those advantages, that you're attacking and abusing. Trans youths are much easier to find, easier to hurt, and have a harder task ahead of them if they need to get out of a bad situation.

So you’re using confused children, who’ve been told lies by adults about sex being a spectrum, that you can born in the wrong body, that men can be women, and women can be men, to justify adult males being allowed into any female only space if they consider themselves female.

Good luck in any Supreme Court.

Have you ever known a trans child? I have, more than 30 years ago. Trust me, this kid had never heard the word trans but the knew they were a boy even though everyone kept telling them they were a girl. This was not pretend. This was not a tomboy. This was a child who was extremely bright, eloquent and very self aware.

You are misinformed if you think kids are deciding they are trans after being told they are trans by adults. Or because they think it’s fun.

 

[seanie]

I have a trans child.

 

[seanie]

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

 

[seanie]

Are you suggesting that because sperm and ovum don’t care about sports teams we shouldn’t either?

Because that would seem quite a silly position to take.

Any answer on the sports thing?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do.

You just ignore the evidence.

Except I see repeated references to very low quality evidence, no unquestionable cases.

And reality has taught me that a sea of low quality data almost always means false.

 

[TomC]

We do.

You just ignore the evidence.

Except I see repeated references to very low quality evidence, no unquestionable cases.

And reality has taught me that a sea of low quality data almost always means false.

What I see is the consistent handwaving of solid evidence when it doesn't support the trans activist ideology.

Simple things,
Like sex is a concrete physical characteristic.
In humans, sex is binary.
Sex can be ascertained at birth with 99+% accuracy.
That some important aspect of humans, like physique and instincts and psychology are consistently different between the two sexes.

Some related aspects of the human situation are different. Gender is not a concrete characteristic, it's an abstract characteristic. It really is a spectrum. Sex abnormalities are also a spectrum, some barely get noticed while others seriously interfere with having a normal life.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

The categories male and female do not fully describe the sex of humans and some other species. Male and female do describe gametes. About half of one percent of all humans do not biologically conform to the ‘ideal’ of binary male or female.

Yes, the categories of male and female do fully describe the sex of humans.

A tiny handful of people are born with a congenital abnormality and the two categories get mixed. But those people are not a different sex. There's no third sex.

People with that problem are still fully human and as such need special consideration. Just like people born with dwarfism or spina bifida. But male and female are a binary, like even and odd integers.
Tom

0:34

 

[Toni]

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

Why did you do that to your child since you disagree with it so much?

 

[Toni]

We do.

You just ignore the evidence.

Except I see repeated references to very low quality evidence, no unquestionable cases.

And reality has taught me that a sea of low quality data almost always means false.

What I see is the consistent handwaving of solid evidence when it doesn't support the trans activist ideology.

Simple things,
Like sex is a concrete physical characteristic.
In humans, sex is binary.
Sex can be ascertained at birth with 99+% accuracy.
That some important aspect of humans, like physique and instincts and psychology are consistently different between the two sexes.

Some related aspects of the human situation are different. Gender is not a concrete characteristic, it's an abstract characteristic. It really is a spectrum. Sex abnormalities are also a spectrum, some barely get noticed while others seriously interfere with having a normal life.
Tom

But those who fall outside of the common easily identifiable male or female are still fully human and they count as much as anyone else.

 

[TomC]

But those who fall outside of the common easily identifiable male or female are still fully human and they count as much as anyone else.

Which is why I said

People with that problem are still fully human and as such need special consideration.

And I know you read that because you quoted and responded to it in #3058.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

And the huge rise in kids identifying as trans is a social contagion caused by adults lying to children about “being born in the wrong body”.

Prove it.

 

[Toni]

But those who fall outside of the common easily identifiable male or female are still fully human and they count as much as anyone else.

Which is why I said

People with that problem are still fully human and as such need special consideration.

And I know you read that because you quoted and responded to it in #3058.
Tom

What if it isn't a 'problem?' What if it is just who they are?

You said everyone is either male or female. This is not completely true as you have acknowledged. That's all that I am saying. That people who do not fall neatly into the male/female dichotomy are still fully human and deserve as much respect and recognition as anyone else.

 

[Bomb#20]

Any definition of "womanhood" based on something like chromosomes or body structures is fundamentally flawed. There will always be some exception that the people proposing such definitions will disagree with.

Any definition of "womanhood" based on subjective unverifiable feelings inside someone's head is far more flawed, because it lacks anything remotely resembling a cohesive meaning.

So subjective definitions are worthless then?

Emily proposed a definition of womanhood based on body structures. You say there will always be some exception that she will disagree with. Can you offer an example of such an exception?

Furthermore, sex is a universal definition that applies to all species that reproduce via the merging of two different sized gametes (anisogamy).

We aren't talking aboput biological sex, or chromosomes, or sex cells.

We're talking about gender identity.

Why do you say that? Biological sex is right there in the thread title; gender identity isn't. This is a wide-ranging thread. We're talking about gender identity, and biological sex, and socially constructed gender, and hormonal and surgical interventions, and intersex conditions, and affirmative action, and U.S. public policy, and, first and foremost, British law.

 

[Bomb#20]

Risk=zero, does it?

Then why the extraordinarily high rate of sexual offending of trans women in prison?

Pretty sure that's sampling bias. The prison service is a lot more likely to know a trans prisoner is trans if he's a sex-offender than if he's a thief. The vast majority of trans prisoners surely keep their gender dysphoria under wraps.

Explain your reasoning to me, because I'm not sold. I'm not seeing how being a sex offender would make it more obvious that a person is trans. A sex offender is just as capable of keeping their dysphoria under wraps as a thief. And in those places where the law is such that prisoners end up housed based on their gender identity, it seems like a non-violent thief would have more motivation to share their gender identity with the staff, as it would remove them from a higher-risk area to a lower-risk area.

It doesn't have to be more obvious -- everything about a sex-offender's sexuality goes under a microscope. And if in the course of a theft investigation the police happen to find out the perp is trans, it isn't relevant to the crime so there's little reason to communicate the information to the prison service. If the prison staff don't already know, a prisoner considering telling them he's trans needs to weigh the odds that he'll be removed to a lower-risk area against the odds that he'll be left right where he is and outed to the other prisoners, putting a target on his back. A sex-offender is likely to already have a target on his back.