Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

It’s not just about assault.

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

There are situations where females are entitled to spaces free from males.

 

[Politesse]

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

For some.

 

[TomC]

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

For some.

For women, as a group.
And it's not like there's no other option for males.
If a male puts effort into presenting, and behaves properly, they probably won't have a problem in the women's restroom. But they are NOT entitled to entrance.
The female woman, shrieking "OMG, it's a man!", is entitled to use the room.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of women who have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of penage to get bent out of shape over the male appearing person in the department store restroom is 10× than all the trans women in America.
Telling them to just get over their irrational fears, because male women don't like the restroom with males in it, is profoundly bigoted.
Tom

 

[seanie]

Sometimes the rights of different groups conflict. You have to find a way of balancing rights.

 

[laughing dog]

Sometimes the rights of different groups conflict. You have to find a way of balancing rights.

Of course, but that means recognizing that the mantra 'privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness" does not apply to everyone.

 

[laughing dog]

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

For some.

For women, as a group.
And it's not like there's no other option for males.
If a male puts effort into presenting, and behaves properly, they probably won't have a problem in the women's restroom. But they are NOT entitled to entrance.
The female woman, shrieking "OMG, it's a man!", is entitled to use the room.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of women who have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of penage to get bent out of shape over the male appearing person in the department store restroom is 10× than all the trans women in America.
Telling them to just get over their irrational fears, because male women don't like the restroom with males in it, is profoundly bigoted.
Tom

Transwomen may not wish to use the men's restroom because they may have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of "penage". Are they supposed to get over their irrational fears? And, if so, how is that not profoundly bigoted?

 

[seanie]

Sometimes the rights of different groups conflict. You have to find a way of balancing rights.

Of course, but that means recognizing that the mantra 'privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness" does not apply to everyone.

Like double rapists?

 

[seanie]

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

For some.

For women, as a group.
And it's not like there's no other option for males.
If a male puts effort into presenting, and behaves properly, they probably won't have a problem in the women's restroom. But they are NOT entitled to entrance.
The female woman, shrieking "OMG, it's a man!", is entitled to use the room.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of women who have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of penage to get bent out of shape over the male appearing person in the department store restroom is 10× than all the trans women in America.
Telling them to just get over their irrational fears, because male women don't like the restroom with males in it, is profoundly bigoted.
Tom

Transwomen may not wish to use the men's restroom because they may have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of "penage". Are they supposed to get over their irrational fears? And, if so, how is that not profoundly bigoted?

Third spaces.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reality is that these people are the gender equivalent of the homeless. They are stigmatized, shunned, mocked, looked down upon. Stuck in a tertiary setup in binary society. And there is no where to put them.

 

[Toni]

It’s also privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness.

For some.

For women, as a group.
And it's not like there's no other option for males.
If a male puts effort into presenting, and behaves properly, they probably won't have a problem in the women's restroom. But they are NOT entitled to entrance.
The female woman, shrieking "OMG, it's a man!", is entitled to use the room.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of women who have been sufficiently traumatized by a person of penage to get bent out of shape over the male appearing person in the department store restroom is 10× than all the trans women in America.
Telling them to just get over their irrational fears, because male women don't like the restroom with males in it, is profoundly bigoted.
Tom

At the same time, trans people have the right to be comfortable and safe and accepted—and to have access to facilities that are appropriate and comfortable to them. Stalls with doors!

For myself, being in a bathroom or dressing room with a trans woman would not be much of a big deal but I won’t lie and say that I would not be startled to see an unexpected exposed penis or testicles. I’d be more concerned if I felt that I or someone else might be the target of a predatory person, whatever genitalia was present. So yeah, a cis male or female attacking a trans person would definitely be concerning to me. I’ve been pretty fortunate to be able to defend myself and occasionally another person against physical and sexual assault. Not that those experiences don’t leave some trauma/PTSD. But not one of those individuals who attacked me or other girls or women was in a women’s locker room or dressing room or rest room. None of them were trans. I’d put good money down betting that they most likely be dangerous to trans individuals as well as to women. More so, in fact.

I don’t understand what makes some people feel the need to or the entitlement to assault others, sexually or otherwise. I do get that some might employ various types of assault in the commission of a robbery or if intoxicated, I suppose. I understand self defense and have engaged in such myself. But otherwise? I honestly do not get it. Particularly with regards to sex.

 

[seanie]

Well the data is limited, but trans women do seem to have a similar offending rate to other males.

Certainly higher than females.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well the data is limited, but trans women do seem to have a similar offending rate to other males.

Can't argue with that uncited evaluation.

Certainly higher than females.

Ibid.

 

[TomC]

At the same time, trans people have the right to be comfortable and safe and accepted—and to have access to facilities that are appropriate and comfortable to them.

I don't see a right for males to use a restroom. Or anybody, really. If the staff of an establishment put in two restrooms, clearly marked, I don't see why anyone feels entitled to ignore the signs on the doors. There's one for everyone.

Stalls with doors!

I'm fine with people in management putting as much into restrooms as they find appropriate for their clientele. If they decide to provide a space for each individual, not a problem. If their product/service becomes more more expensive than a competitor I'll probably go there.

Feel free to pay extra to support your gender wishes, like individual toilets, but don't expect me to do that. I'm fine with the status quo.
Tom

 

[bilby]

For myself, being in a bathroom or dressing room with a trans woman would not be much of a big deal but I won’t lie and say that I would not be startled to see an unexpected exposed penis or testicles.

I have used male facilities all my life, and I too would be startled to see an exposed penis or testicles. It's not something you routinely see in a men's room, inless you are actively trying to catch a glimpse, in which case you are likely to get your lights punched out.

 

[laughing dog]

Sometimes the rights of different groups conflict. You have to find a way of balancing rights.

Of course, but that means recognizing that the mantra 'privacy, and dignity, and sometimes fairness" does not apply to everyone.

Like double rapists?

Wow. I'm glad there is an ocean between us.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Feel free to pay extra to support your gender wishes, like individual toilets, but don't expect me to do that. I'm fine with the status quo.

For a person who has their own version of perversion, which to your luck, isn't a death sentence these days (in fact it is decriminalized now), you show absolutely no empathy to other people who are different than the baseline.

It is remarkable how little you give fuck about other people.

 

[seanie]

There was a Swedish study about offending patterns that suggested a similar rate of offending between trans women and other males, though I’ve not heard of anything else.

And data will now be skewed as crimes committed by males identifying males are now being recorded as women’s crimes in some jurisdictions.

What is true, both in the USA and UK, is that those prisoners identifying as trans women have a significantly higher rate of incarceration for sexual offences then the male prison population in general. However, I suspect that’s down to non trans male sexual offenders identifying as trans in the hope of transfer to women’s prisons. Not a reflection on trans women per se.

 

[Toni]

At the same time, trans people have the right to be comfortable and safe and accepted—and to have access to facilities that are appropriate and comfortable to them.

I don't see a right for males to use a restroom. Or anybody, really. If the staff of an establishment put in two restrooms, clearly marked, I don't see why anyone feels entitled to ignore the signs on the doors. There's one for everyone.

Stalls with doors!

I'm fine with people in management putting as much into restrooms as they find appropriate for their clientele. If they decide to provide a space for each individual, not a problem. If their product/service becomes more more expensive than a competitor I'll probably go there.

Feel free to pay extra to support your gender wishes, like individual toilets, but don't expect me to do that. I'm fine with the status quo.
Tom

That’s just fine as long as everyone is cis-gendered and not at all fine with those who are not cis-gendered.

Management might be surprisingly see at what is/is not inside someone’s underwear or heart. It is wrong for someone to be excluded from necessary facilities because someone is uncomfortable with their bodies or confusing people’s bodies with their politics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For myself, being in a bathroom or dressing room with a trans woman would not be much of a big deal but I won’t lie and say that I would not be startled to see an unexpected exposed penis or testicles.

I have used male facilities all my life, and I too would be startled to see an exposed penis or testicles. It's not something you routinely see in a men's room, inless you are actively trying to catch a glimpse, in which case you are likely to get your lights punched out.

Dude, let's not be petty.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There was a Swedish study about offending patterns that suggested a similar rate of offending between trans women and other males, though I’ve not heard of anything else.

There you go... a "Swedish study".

And data will now be skewed as crimes committed by males identifying males are now being recorded as women’s crimes in some jurisdictions.

Some jurisdictions!

What is true, both in the USA and UK, is that those prisoners identifying as trans women have a significantly higher rate of incarceration for sexual offences then the male prison population in general.

Well, we don't have many running to the defense of transwomen who commit rape as we do to men who commit rape. So there is that.

However, I suspect that’s down to non trans male sexual offenders identifying as trans in the hope of transfer to women’s prisons. Not a reflection on trans women per se.

Can't argue with that logic. I can barely even call it logic.