Split Legalized Prostitution split from GOP: The party of idiots

[bilby]

However, such risks were mitigated by personal protective gear and a lot of safety regulations. I was not coerced. I chose the job knowing I would be exposed to a number of hazards at work. But my employer did its job by putting appropriate safety measures in place and ensuring everyone had appropriate training and equipment—and insisting that everyone follow all safety measures and precautions. It was a disciplinary matter if anyone failed to comply. AND we were provided with reporting phone numbers to anonymously report any unsafe work practices.

Literally every one of those measures (and more) is a feature of the legal prostitution industry here.

 

[Toni]

However, such risks were mitigated by personal protective gear and a lot of safety regulations. I was not coerced. I chose the job knowing I would be exposed to a number of hazards at work. But my employer did its job by putting appropriate safety measures in place and ensuring everyone had appropriate training and equipment—and insisting that everyone follow all safety measures and precautions. It was a disciplinary matter if anyone failed to comply. AND we were provided with reporting phone numbers to anonymously report any unsafe work practices.

Literally every one of those measures (and more) is a feature of the legal prostitution industry here.

Legal prostitution? In the US?

There are many kinds of evil. They are not all rape.

What I described in the part you quoted is every day life in every medical facility in the US. And I assume, most in most of the developed world.

I don’t think it is morally or legally wrong to offer employment that is dangerous or difficult or unpleasant. I do think that it is morally wrong and to some extent, not as much as it should be, illegal to fail to inform employees and offer, provide and insist upon adequate protections from the hazards inherent in the job.

 

[bilby]

Legal prostitution? In the US?

I do not live in the US.

Though I understand that there are parts of the US where prostitution is legal. According to Wikipedia, all are in Nevada, though even in that state the law varies between counties.

 

[Elixir]

Coercion ( or incapacitation) a necessary component of rape.

Sure Toni, you can define rape as a subset of coercion. That doesn’t make all forms of coercion equal to violence, rape or any other evil.
It does disservice to the cause of reducing violence toward women, to try to co-opt the entire lexicon of “persuasion” to the operational definition of rape.
I stand by my assertion that paying a prostitute for sex is coercive, and yet, should not be criminalized. If you differ, please lay out your rationale (I’m sure Derec will be fascinated). But please don’t lump all forms of “coercion” into your concept of rape; that would be paving the path to the rationalization of rape.

Legal prostitution? In the US?

Yes. In the State directly to the east of your own. Have you ever been there? You can hardly miss it if you drive through the populated areas.

 

[Toni]

Coercion ( or incapacitation) a necessary component of rape.

Sure Toni, you can define rape as a subset of coercion. That doesn’t make all forms of coercion equal to violence, rape or any other evil.
It does disservice to the cause of reducing violence toward women, to try to co-opt the entire lexicon of “persuasion” to the operational definition of rape.
I stand by my assertion that paying a prostitute for sex is coercive, and yet, should not be criminalized. If you differ, please lay out your rationale (I’m sure Derec will be fascinated). But please don’t lump all forms of “coercion” into your concept of rape; that would be paving the path to the rationalization of rape.

Legal prostitution? In the US?

Yes. In the State directly to the east of your own. Have you ever been there? You can hardly miss it if you drive through the populated areas.

Definitely prostitution is NOT legal to the state east or west or north or south of me. In a couple of parts of Nevada, under tightly controlled circumstances, yes, but I don't live adjacent to Nevada. And I haven't had any reason to visit Nevada--it's really really low on my bucket list. Vegas holds no interest for me and there are places I'd much rather travel to than....desert. I do realize not all of Nevada is desert but that's the image that pops into my head: desert and Vegas. Nope. Not my thing.

Coercion is a necessary component of rape. Rape is not a subset of coercion.

 

[Toni]

Legal prostitution? In the US?

I do not live in the US.

Though I understand that there are parts of the US where prostitution is legal. According to Wikipedia, all are in Nevada, though even in that state the law varies between counties.

Yes, I believe there are two counties in Nevada where prostitution in certain settings/circumstances is legal. Those comprise an extremely insignificant portion of the US, both in land mass and population.

 

[Elixir]

I don't live adjacent to Nevada.

My mistake.

Is prostitution legal in Nevada? Yes.
But really, that has only trivial relevance here.

Coercion is a necessary component of rape. Rape is not a subset of coercion.

Oh FFS. Breathing is also a necessary component of rape, otherwise it becomes necrophilia. I don’t hear you complaining about breathing being legal - which it probably is where you live as well as in Nevada. So being “a necessary component of rape” is not reason to condemn it in blanket fashion.

Again, I beseech you to refrain from trying to co-opt the entire lexicon of every form of coercion, persuasion, cajoling, pleading, compelling etc etc, to equivocate them with rape.
It’s not just wrong, it’s counterproductive to any effort to discourage rape, and tends to give excuse to all forms of sexual violence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think so. Touchy subject though.
I agree with Derec that a person’s choice, forced or otherwise, to have exclusively transactional relationships with people of the opposite (or same, as the case may be) sex, should not be criminalized, even if it is based on a coercive discrepancy in physical resources. Whether it is fair game in a discussion about GOP idiots, is perhaps a different matter.

You had me right up to the word coercive. Consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever type of consensual sex they mutually agree to do long as coercion of any kind is not involved. Not physical, not medical, political, psychological, intoxication related/adjacent: no coercion or sex without mutual, freely given consent. If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

Preventing economically disadvantaged people from working as prostitutes does not help them. Don't kick people out of the frying pan!

 

[Toni]

I think so. Touchy subject though.
I agree with Derec that a person’s choice, forced or otherwise, to have exclusively transactional relationships with people of the opposite (or same, as the case may be) sex, should not be criminalized, even if it is based on a coercive discrepancy in physical resources. Whether it is fair game in a discussion about GOP idiots, is perhaps a different matter.

You had me right up to the word coercive. Consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever type of consensual sex they mutually agree to do long as coercion of any kind is not involved. Not physical, not medical, political, psychological, intoxication related/adjacent: no coercion or sex without mutual, freely given consent. If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

Preventing economically disadvantaged people from working as prostitutes does not help them. Don't kick people out of the frying pan!

Maybe it’s just me but I don’t see telling someone that they’re best shot in life is allowing their body to be used by strangers as they will leaving them with the risk of injury and serious incurable infections, not to mention risk of pregnancy and the serious risks to life and health, not to mention legal risk.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Legal prostitution? In the US?

I do not live in the US.

Though I understand that there are parts of the US where prostitution is legal. According to Wikipedia, all are in Nevada, though even in that state the law varies between counties.

That's my understanding, also, although there was a legislative oops that left it legal for a while in some state back east. By state law it's illegal in the two counties with the most people (it sets a population threshold, they periodically update it so the de-facto law is prohibited in the two big counties) and county choice otherwise. My understanding is that it's legal in about half the counties but I haven't kept track. Down here the closest county line is more than an hour from the Strip and there are no brothels at the county line--you have to drive through town first, no idea how far or if they still exist. My understanding is that in Reno the county line is 10 minutes away.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think so. Touchy subject though.
I agree with Derec that a person’s choice, forced or otherwise, to have exclusively transactional relationships with people of the opposite (or same, as the case may be) sex, should not be criminalized, even if it is based on a coercive discrepancy in physical resources. Whether it is fair game in a discussion about GOP idiots, is perhaps a different matter.

You had me right up to the word coercive. Consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever type of consensual sex they mutually agree to do long as coercion of any kind is not involved. Not physical, not medical, political, psychological, intoxication related/adjacent: no coercion or sex without mutual, freely given consent. If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

I intentionally left that in there because coercion takes so many forms that trying to remove it from transactional sex -or ANY sex - is just not an option, period.
Hot chicks like rich guys.
Want to make that illegal?
When does enticement become coercion?

Trying to regulate overtly transactional sex is difficult enough. Physical coercion is called rape and is illegal. Medical coercion is malpractice. Etc etc

Monetary coercion however, is another animal. It is the way things are done at the bottom foundation of our society. People don’t show up to work at McDonald’s because it’s fun. Porn stars and prostitues don’t work for free either.

It becomes coercion the second someone doesn’t want to proceed.

Emphasis added. He's talking about someone doing it because they need money, not someone who doesn't want to proceed.

I think Toni is as well. Wouldn't one think prostitution is one thing as a profession and another thing as the person is desperate?

 

[southernhybrid]

Wow. This thread is all over the place, from disagreements about cars, to whether or not prostitution should be legal. What happened to Republicans are idiots? Anyway, it's my turn to address all of these important issues. /s. You can skip down to the last paragraph, if you want to read my comment about Republican idiocy.

As far as sex for money goes, the last time some of us argued about this, I actually found a discussion board for sex workers and read what they said. Some said they really enjoyed their work. Some said that while they didn't especially enjoy their work, it was much better than their former jobs, like working as a waitress for example, but they were making way more money as a sex worker and they could choose their own hours etc. So, I'm not going to make any assumptions about adult women who choose this as a profession. OF course, not one should be forced to do this work. Hopefully they will save and invest the money they make, since it's not usually a life long profession, although I once read their were women in Denmark in their 60s who were sex workers and doing quite well. It wouldn't be something I would ever want to do when I was younger, but I can see how it might work out well for women or men for that matter, if there is enough demand, who want to do this type of work. It would be better if it were legalized and regulated, imo, to give more protection to the workers. I've known women who loved casual sex, so to each their own.

As far as younger women dating older men. One just broke up with my brother in law after a few months. She was 27 years younger than him and told him, he was too old for a long term relationship. But, I once worked with a social worker who was about 35 and was married to a man in his late 60s. She was very happy with their relationship. They even had a young child I don't think it's fair to judge why a woman might date or marry a man who is decades older than she is. Who cares!

And, if a pretty young woman chooses to have a relationship with a wealthy old man, that's her business, even if she's simply doing it for the financial benefit. It's none of my business who other women choose to date or partner with. If they are being abused, they need to report it and get help. But, that's a very different issue, imo.

As far as the car thing goes, I've never had or wanted a BMW, but I do remember my mechanic, who I've never needed for my Ford Fusion because it never had a single problem until the hybrid battery started to die when it had 88K miles on it. My mechanic would repair any car but he always joked about BMWs, as he used to work for a BMW dealer. He told us he specialized in BMWs because they were always needing repairs. That was about 20 years ago, so I have no idea if they've gotten better since then. Maybe I'll stop by to see him one day and ask. We had a Mazda, worst car ever, that was in his shop frequently so we got to know him quite well and we visit him once in awhile, just to see how he's doing. He's not cheap, but he and his workers do excellent work. We also had an 86 Mustang GT that had almost 200K miles on it before we decided to trade it or sell it. It had very few problems. We just sold the 2003 Mustang Cobra. There was nothing cheap about it, and it was very fast. It had low mileage and the guy who bought was ecstatic. I'm just too old to enjoy a sports car at his point and since our Ford dealer refused to replace the hybrid battery that was still under warranty, we are no longer Ford people. Ford has basically become a company that sells trucks and SUVs. I like sedans and you pretty much have to buy a foreign car if you like sedans. Some of us do get too emotionally attached to our cars or to certain brands of cars..... Enough about cars!

Now, back to the Republicans. Yes. They are not only idiots, they are destroying the country with their idiocy. I was just reading an article about how a lot of idiot Republicans actually believe that some public schools really do have litter boxes in the rest rooms for the kids who identify as furries. This belief is still alive, despite the schools reassuring them that there have never been any litter boxes in the rest rooms. It doesn't get much more idiotic than that. Maybe that explains why Trump is still ahead of Biden in the polls. Our country has become full of poorly educated people who are easily manipulated by conspiracy theories. Most have no idea what's really going on, yet they believe their orange savior's lies.

 

[southernhybrid]

What happened to Republicans are idiots?

Booooring!
Everyone knows Republicans are idiots, but there are still valid disagreements about cars and prostitution.

We could start a new thread about cars and sex workers, couldn't we?

 

[Ford]

What happened to Republicans are idiots?

Booooring!
Everyone knows Republicans are idiots, but there are still valid disagreements about cars and prostitution.

We could start a new thread about cars and sex workers, couldn't we?

As a person who drives a BMW and used to date a stripper (well...two...at the same time...but they didn't know each other...it's a long story) I agree!

 

[Elixir]

What happened to Republicans are idiots?

Booooring!
Everyone knows Republicans are idiots, but there are still valid disagreements about cars and prostitution.

We could start a new thread about cars and sex workers, couldn't we?

Or … just reduce this entire site to one honking’ big thread! No more losing track of which thread you’re looking at!

 

[Derec]

If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

Why 25? And what punishment do you propose to somebody having consensual sex with a 24 year old adult sex worker?
And you mention "facsimile/equivalent"? So dating a 24 year old and buying her dinner or a piece of jewelry is criminalized too?

 

[Derec]

Monetary coercion however, is another animal. It is the way things are done at the bottom foundation of our society. People don’t show up to work at McDonald’s because it’s fun. Porn stars and prostitues don’t work for free either.

Neither do software engineers or physicians for that matter. To single out sex workers as "coerced" for accepting payment is textbook special pleading.

 

[Toni]

If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

Why 25? And what punishment do you propose to somebody having consensual sex with a 24 year old adult sex worker?
And you mention "facsimile/equivalent"? So dating a 24 year old and buying her dinner or a piece of jewelry is criminalized too?

The reason I suggested 25 is because that is an age which is often the cutoff age for people to re t some types of property, such as vacation re take. Because under 25, there is a much higher risk of renters engaging in dangerous and property damaging behavior. Some never out grow this, true. But I understand WHY huge age limit exists, legally. Also brain science tells us that adolescence dies not end at 18 or 21. Under all circumstances, prostitution is a potentially dangerous, even life threatening line of work. Not to suggest all clients are dangerous. But it is not possible to discern which will and which will not be, or who does/does not have an incurable STI. Or who will/will not be compliant with condom use.

Another reason is that if everyone knows that someone must be at least 25, it will give them far less cover to claim that 14-15 year old looks 18….

Before you ask: I also think that one should have to be at least 25 to enlist in the armed services.

 

[Derec]

And let's be clear about one thing: Derec's criticism of Harris' relationship with Brown is entirely based on speculation on his part about what the relationship was all about.

It may be speculation to some degree, as we do not have direct insight into their relationship, but it is well-founded based on Brown's position and their severe age discrepancy (he was more than twice her age).

He thinks "women are entirely transactional and fuck their way to the top.

No, I do not. I did not offer a statement about "women" as a whole. I also did not say KH is "entirely transactional".
I merely said that I think - based on evidence - that a particular woman's (Kamala Harris) one particular relationship (with "Slick" Willie Brown) was at least largely transactional.
You are the one trying to extrapolate to "all women" even though I wrote nothing of the kind.

Here's a woman I don't like because she's black, so obviously she fucked her way to the top."

I do not even particularly dislike KH, although I do have my problems with some things she advocated for or did while in politics. And my opinions of her is certainly not because she is (half) black. So you are swinging 0 for 2.
I did not say she fucked her way to the top. But I do think she fucked her way to the lower rungs of California politics that gave her a lot of opportunities to work her way to the top. 0 for 3, you are out.

Also worth noting is that Derec hasn't made the same accusation about Harris' husband. Weird, huh?

Which politician did he sleep with to get appointed anywhere? I never heard anything of the kind. Do you have a link?

Here's a guy who married the then California Attorney General (arguably more powerful that the Mayor of SF), who then went onto be a US Senator and VP, but for some reason Derec isn't accusing Doug Emhoff of anything at all.

Are you serious now? They are both the same age. There is no indication that their marriage is transactional. It's not the same as 29 year old fucking a 60 year old geezer who bought her a car and put her on political boards.

Oh...wait...he's a white guy.

Yes, that's the only difference between the two situations.

 

[Jarhyn]

If money/facsimile/equivalent is exchanged, the minimum age for consent should be 25.

Why 25? And what punishment do you propose to somebody having consensual sex with a 24 year old adult sex worker?
And you mention "facsimile/equivalent"? So dating a 24 year old and buying her dinner or a piece of jewelry is criminalized too?

The reason I suggested 25 is because that is an age which is often the cutoff age for people to re t some types of property, such as vacation re take. Because under 25, there is a much higher risk of renters engaging in dangerous and property damaging behavior. Some never out grow this, true. But I understand WHY huge age limit exists, legally. Also brain science tells us that adolescence dies not end at 18 or 21. Under all circumstances, prostitution is a potentially dangerous, even life threatening line of work. Not to suggest all clients are dangerous. But it is not possible to discern which will and which will not be, or who does/does not have an incurable STI. Or who will/will not be compliant with condom use.

Another reason is that if everyone knows that someone must be at least 25, it will give them far less cover to claim that 14-15 year old looks 18….

Before you ask: I also think that one should have to be at least 25 to enlist in the armed services.

So, I'm not going to argue anything you said here. This is all broadly correct. Still, I would like to offer a thought my husband recently told me.

My husband is a sex worker. He is an artist yes, and in fact works for a pretty big company from time to time on their merch inventory and sales, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of money he makes through private art sales is fundamentally sexual in nature.

And... I also have history as a sex worker. For the longest time, my biggest source of personal income was selling people virtual penises for their virtual bodies in a virtual world.

I would literally spend hours of my day some days constructing for someone a virtual cock.

Other times I would take money to occasionally have cybersex with people.

I did all this long before I was 25, and have continued similar activities, from making adult art to "adult hypnosis."

Many artists from age 18-25 in fact participate in sex work in this way, often drawing/making/depicting degrading acts.

Would you similarly prevent the non-contact sex worker from sex work?