• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Split Legalized Prostitution split from GOP: The party of idiots

To notify a split thread.
The reason I suggested 25 is because that is an age which is often the cutoff age for people to re t some types of property, such as vacation re take.
Those are restrictions put in place by private companies, not government. What you want is raise the legal "age of consent" to 25 as long as cash (or facsimile/equivalent) is being exchanged.
Because under 25, there is a much higher risk of renters engaging in dangerous and property damaging behavior. Some never out grow this, true. But I understand WHY huge age limit exists, legally.
I disagree with these limits too, but again, they are imposed by private companies, not governments.
Under all circumstances, prostitution is a potentially dangerous, even life threatening line of work.
Legalizing would certainly make it safer. Pushing it into the underground, even more so with boneheaded laws like FOSTA/SESTA, makes sex work more dangerous.
That said, there are plenty of "potentially dangerous" jobs out there. Would you prohibit young adults from doing any of these:
26595.jpeg


Not to suggest all clients are dangerous. But it is not possible to discern which will and which will not be, or who does/does not have an incurable STI. Or who will/will not be compliant with condom use.
You also cannot guarantee that a passenger a taxi/Uber driver picks up is not dangerous. Or a person somebody delivers a pizza to. Or any job involving client interaction. But keeping yourself safe is easier when government is not pushing your industry underground. It was safer to solicit custom on Backpage than on street corners. But the federal government shut it down (in a bipartisan fashion I might add) for no good reason.
Another reason is that if everyone knows that someone must be at least 25, it will give them far less cover to claim that 14-15 year old looks 18….
But now you want to punish clients because a 23 year old adult sex worker looked 25.

Before you ask: I also think that one should have to be at least 25 to enlist in the armed services.
That would greatly limit US armed forces recruitment numbers.
But would you also limit employment in other "potentially dangerous" professions? Not only the ones in the graphic above, but most jobs are "potentially dangerous". Even working at McD, you can run into a nut job getting violent over their Big Mac order ...
No, really. I only want to ensure, as much as possible, that kids are kept as safe as possible, and at least from exploitation by adults.

In my former job in a lab, part of the testing we did included testing for HIV and for syphilis. So, I was potentially exposed every day (as well as to some other infections, some of which can be sexually transmitted). YET my employer provided and indeed insisted upon the correct and universal use of personal protective equipment and procedures to ensure the risk was minimized.

And here's the important part: Anyone who touched another person in any way, shape or form that could be construed as sexual would have been fired immediately. NO ONE had the right to touch me or speak to me or anyone else in a manner that would
Legalized brothels/districts often attract not legal sex workers who are in fact under age and coerced.
True? I thought they were heavily regulated, registered, inspected etc.
How do you “know” that, anyway?
I’m not contradicting you, I really was told those things.

That aside though, the rest of the issues you mention ARE vastly problematic.

I’ve read extensively about legalized brotgel districts in Europe and the illegal sex trade that accompanies the legal work.

It makes sense—for some people, what attracts them is specifically the illegal aspects. And of course there are those who are actual pedophiles which is a separate issue altogether.

Some people are attracted to newer, different drugs, or drugs taken in different t ways that give a bigger thrill or high or whatever. It’s not that different than sex work. Except for who the victims are.
 
I’ve read extensively about legalized brotgel districts in Europe and the illegal sex trade that accompanies the legal work.
Same in US?
Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?

It’s much more difficult to do a comparison with the IS vs Europe due to the very few places in the US where prostitution is legal compared with Europe.

That says, legal prostitution in the US is hardly an example of freedom for women or worker’s rights.


Price added, "The conditions within the brothels that exploited Jane Doe were deeply coercive, designed to keep her indebted and under their control. This violates the 13th Amendment's prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude."

Jane Doe details in the her suit systemic abuse within the brothels, including confinement, economic coercion and limited autonomy over personal and professional lives.

The case exposes the unsettling realities of Nevada’s sex trade, challenging the assumption that legalized prostitution can exist without contributing to the conditions typical of sex trafficking. Nevada's approach to prostitution highlights a complex relationship between economic gains and human rights considerations, the plaintiff says.

An estimated $5 billion is funneled annually into Nevada's underground through illegal prostitution. This economic behemoth stands in stark contrast to the state's legal brothel revenue — approximately $75 million from legalized brothel-based prostitution in counties with populations under 700,000 — raising profound questions about the balance between economic benefit and the human cost.
 
I’ve read extensively about legalized brotgel districts in Europe and the illegal sex trade that accompanies the legal work.
Same in US?
Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?
Yes, we're exceptional. :angel2:
It’s much more difficult to do a comparison with the IS vs Europe due to the very few places in the US where prostitution is legal compared with Europe.

That says, legal prostitution in the US is hardly an example of freedom for women or worker’s rights.

I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
 
I’ve read extensively about legalized brotgel districts in Europe and the illegal sex trade that accompanies the legal work.
Same in US?
Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?
Yes, we're exceptional. :angel2:
It’s much more difficult to do a comparison with the IS vs Europe due to the very few places in the US where prostitution is legal compared with Europe.

That says, legal prostitution in the US is hardly an example of freedom for women or worker’s rights.

I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!

I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
 
Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?
No. Why do you ask?
My question was on the nature of US laws and places with legalized prostitution, not about human nature.
BTW I have not been in Europe for decades. When I was, I assumed that the "red light districts" in Paris, Rome, Munich etc were all illegal or quasi-legal.
 
Do you believe that people in the US are actually different than the ones in Europe?
No. Why do you ask?
My question was on the nature of US laws and places with legalized prostitution, not about human nature.
BTW I have not been in Europe for decades. When I was, I assumed that the "red light districts" in Paris, Rome, Munich etc were all illegal or quasi-legal.
Right. Humans are humans are humans. Some will always want something specifically because it is forbidden. A smaller subset, specifically because it is taken by force. A minority, of course but not zero.

Please see the article in linked about a recent lawsuit in Nevada.

Over the years here I’ve located and posted many articles about prostitution and its effects on the sex workers and about whether legalizing prostitution diminishes the market for illegal sex trade, all concluding that it does not. You obviously have internet access so feel free to do your own searches.

Please note: I do not see sex between consenting adults to be immoral or wrong for any reason. To me, the questions raised are only with consent and only with whether all participants are adults. Yes, I think commercial sex workers should only be real adults, not 18 and up. We do not allow 18 year olds to legally consume alcoholic beverages because we know it is bad for them. So is sex work.
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???

Did you not notice that legalized sex work in Nevada is only the tip of the iceberg of sex work in Nevada? Or that within legal brothels there still exists significant sex trafficking???

And for the love of god can we please quit pretending that only girls and women are prostitutes? Men are. Boys are. Children are. Trans people are!

Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.

Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
 
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
That's not the way I see it.

Women use it a lot. Men exploit that usage.

It's all kinda gross to me, but there you have it. Men typically buy it. Women typically sell it. It's not better or worse, it's just how things are.

Also, I'm not sure why you brought up boys. Exploiting children is nasty, regardless of sex.
Tom
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???
When I say regulated, I mean Federally. I mean W-2s, FICA, Federally licensed. I'm not suggesting any existing system in the US is the gold standard. I'm saying stripped down, build something huge. There'd be a undersecretary in the White House for the Department of Labor for it. I'm talking training programs, psychology and physical (sex-ed, not practice).
Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.
I'd imagine easily tens of thousands of women currently are being exploited. The prohibition on the trade is an abject failure in protecting the civil rights of those women.
Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
I suppose we could just go with the status quo which isn't remotely working. Exploiting drug addicts, homeless, at risk folks, even importing women from other countries to have sex with NFL Team owners. Let's pretend we have a handle on it. Or that *giggle* a couple hundred more officers could fix it.

Or we could legalize it. We can create a bill of rights for it. We can make it federally stamped. And we can make it a federal crime to use unregistered workers. Because it isn't going away. But the thing Toni is this, the above isn't going to happen, and women will continue being exploited in the status quo. If women can obfuscate their minds to think supporting Donald Trump is good for women, men should have no issue obfuscating that there is no harm / no foul. I can't fix that, it is among the many large scale things I can't fix.
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???

Did you not notice that legalized sex work in Nevada is only the tip of the iceberg of sex work in Nevada? Or that within legal brothels there still exists significant sex trafficking???

And for the love of god can we please quit pretending that only girls and women are prostitutes? Men are. Boys are. Children are. Trans people are!

Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.

Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???
When I say regulated, I mean Federally. I mean W-2s, FICA, Federally licensed. I'm not suggesting any existing system in the US is the gold standard. I'm saying stripped down, build something huge. There'd be a undersecretary in the White House for the Department of Labor for it.
Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.
I'd imagine easily tens of thousands of women currently are being exploited. The prohibition on the trade is an abject failure in protecting the civil rights of those women.
Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
I suppose we could just go with the status quo which isn't remotely working. Exploiting drug addicts, homeless, at risk folks, even importing women from other countries to have sex with NFL Team owners. Let's pretend we have a handle on it. Or that *giggle* a couple hundred more officers could fix it.

Or we could legalize it. We can create a bill of rights for it. We can make it federally stamped. And we can make it a federal crime to use unregistered workers. Because it isn't going away. But the thing Toni is this, the above isn't going to happen, and women will continue being exploited in the status quo. If women can obfuscate their minds to think supporting Donald Trump is good for women, men should have no issue obfuscating that there is no harm / no foul. I can't fix that, it is among the many large scale things I can't fix.
Please quit blaming women for Donald Fucking Trump. Women are the reason he lost in 2020.
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???
When I say regulated, I mean Federally. I mean W-2s, FICA, Federally licensed. I'm not suggesting any existing system in the US is the gold standard. I'm saying stripped down, build something huge. There'd be a undersecretary in the White House for the Department of Labor for it. I'm talking training programs, psychology and physical (sex-ed, not practice).
Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.
I'd imagine easily tens of thousands of women currently are being exploited. The prohibition on the trade is an abject failure in protecting the civil rights of those women.
Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
I suppose we could just go with the status quo which isn't remotely working. Exploiting drug addicts, homeless, at risk folks, even importing women from other countries to have sex with NFL Team owners. Let's pretend we have a handle on it. Or that *giggle* a couple hundred more officers could fix it.

Or we could legalize it. We can create a bill of rights for it. We can make it federally stamped. And we can make it a federal crime to use unregistered workers. Because it isn't going away. But the thing Toni is this, the above isn't going to happen, and women will continue being exploited in the status quo. If women can obfuscate their minds to think supporting Donald Trump is good for women, men should have no issue obfuscating that there is no harm / no foul. I can't fix that, it is among the many large scale things I can't fix.
A partial list of other things that ‘are not going away:’

Murder
Arson
Stealing
Fraud
Rape
Assault
Running stop signs/stop lights
DUI


How about just legalizing those?
 
I suppose it is simple as this... if restaurants facilitate human trafficking, legalized prostitution would as well, without exceptional amounts of oversight. An amount of oversight that seems impossible for even the exceptional type of people Americans are.

It is the second oldest profession. Maybe it is time to start accepting that it exists, so that it can be managed. I fear that the current system exploits a lot more women than a well managed system.
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Not claiming it was, saying that it should. The trouble with prohibition on this profession is prohibition is a lie. It isn't legal, but it is systemic. So it'd be better to figure this one out as lots of women are being coerced, are being trafficked, are being made victims. However, to address that would require maturity, a healthy view of sex (something this country is just incapable of handling... despite our exceptionalism), having the system in place for the employee's best interests not the consumers or employers (!), and also dealing with the problem of rich men (ie people accustomed to getting what they want because money). I suppose there will always be a black market.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do. In part I believe because many men prefer to not acknowledge that boys are often also trafficked.
Men want to believe that they'd never take advantage of a trafficked person, so it becomes the reality to them, therefore they haven't... though they really don't know. Probably do it enough times, and the thought never occurs to them. And someone doesn't need to be trafficked to be a victim of the trade.
Did you read the article? Does it seem to you that if there is even a tiny bit of merit to the allegations in the lawsuit that legalized sex work actually protects sex workers???
When I say regulated, I mean Federally. I mean W-2s, FICA, Federally licensed. I'm not suggesting any existing system in the US is the gold standard. I'm saying stripped down, build something huge. There'd be a undersecretary in the White House for the Department of Labor for it. I'm talking training programs, psychology and physical (sex-ed, not practice).
Maybe if men started to put themselves in the position of their imaginedgeberic female sex worker and started recognizing that she is often he, and is often exploited, coerced, trafficked, they might develop a bit more empathy towards their imagined ideal female prostitute.
I'd imagine easily tens of thousands of women currently are being exploited. The prohibition on the trade is an abject failure in protecting the civil rights of those women.
Talk about fucked up attitudes towards sex! Ignoring the reality of what sex work is—from the point of view of a sex worker is pretty damn fucked up. Thinking that sex work, with its inherent dangers, is a legitimate way for a homeless teenager to earn some money is not a healthy way of looking at sex or sex work.
I suppose we could just go with the status quo which isn't remotely working. Exploiting drug addicts, homeless, at risk folks, even importing women from other countries to have sex with NFL Team owners. Let's pretend we have a handle on it. Or that *giggle* a couple hundred more officers could fix it.

Or we could legalize it. We can create a bill of rights for it. We can make it federally stamped. And we can make it a federal crime to use unregistered workers. Because it isn't going away. But the thing Toni is this, the above isn't going to happen, and women will continue being exploited in the status quo. If women can obfuscate their minds to think supporting Donald Trump is good for women, men should have no issue obfuscating that there is no harm / no foul. I can't fix that, it is among the many large scale things I can't fix.
A partial list of other things that ‘are not going away:’

Murder
Arson
Stealing
Fraud
Rape
Assault
Running stop signs/stop lights
DUI


How about just legalizing those?
I already addressed that in the post you quoted. It might not have been enough for you, but I did note it.

Yes, there is a, well, why don't we allow all sorts of other crimes? But in this case it is different, as long as there isn't coercion (mental, physical, economic, etc-ic).

The criticality for legalization hangs exclusively with the c-word. And in order to remove the coercion there needs to be a lot of things done. I know, I know, you are just going to say "Well, why don't men just stop sexually assaulting vulnerable women?" And really, I mean really, that is a great question! If men using these services didn't suffer from a sense of entitlement mixed with naivety at best, indifference, or something nefarious, coercion of women to trade intimate favors for their soul wouldn't be a thing. Again, I can't fix that.

Puritanical America has demonized the sexual organs of women, which ironically helps provide the cover for those who profit most in the profession (not the workers) via shame and illegality. That is 400 years of programming I can't personally erase. So I have to come up with solutions within the parameters I see as not being modifiable in the near or not so near future.
 
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Yes, it is.
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do.
In many places (including here) it isn't a crime at all.

The USA is an outlier in this area of law, when compared to the rest of the OECD, probably because of your (also an outlier) levels of religiousity.
 
I am a woman who fully supports the legalization, the rights of the workers and the fact that sex work is work. I will post a few links to support my views from sex worked, and organization that support sex work. I personally think that part of the objections to it are the false idea that women are forced into this profession. Of course, some are, but some are forced into working in fast food restaurants or as maids etc. because they have no other options. But, based on what I've read over the years, most sex workers choose to work in this type of work, or they feel it's the best alternative to other occupations they might have. I also read a few years ago about sex workers who's only customers are the disabled. They seems to have an even higher enjoyment of their work because they were giving an experience to a class of people who would never have the opportunity to have sex with a partner if it were not for them.

Btw, there are many organizations lead by women who are organizing others involved in sex work. I see nothing wrong with it. I wouldn't enjoy it myself, but there are plenty of occupations that I wouldn't want to do. I can't tell you the number of times when someone told me, while working as a professional nurse, that they didn't know how I could stand to do that type of work. To each their own.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/be...-tell-you-why-sex-work-is-work-speak-to-them/


The Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women (GAATW) was founded in 1994 by a group of feminists and women’s rights advocates from, mostly, the Global South. As students, activists, asylum seekers, or migrants in the Global North, they had witnessed the struggles of their compatriots with much less privilege than their own. And as volunteer caregivers, translators, interviewers, and advocates in law courts, GAATW’s founding mothers had heard the stories of working-class migrant women who had undertaken journeys in search of better livelihoods.
Typically, women narrated stories of difficult situations: of the broken promises of agents/recruiters, unbearable working conditions, and financial destitution. Their stories, hard as they were to hear, testified to the women’s courage, enterprise, and determination and challenged the stereotype of ‘the victim of trafficking’ prevailing in the Global North.

Trafficking and sex work​

GAATW has always been an ally of the sex worker rights movement. As feminists and human rights activists, our founding mothers thought it natural to support self-organising among this group of women. In the beginning, some were uncomfortable with the idea that ‘sex work is work’. However, their repeated interactions with individual sex workers and fledgling collectives forced them to question their middle-class mores.
A few months ago, I met a feminist activist in Thailand who now works in the field of sexual and reproductive health and rights. She explained that she had been close to GAATW since the very beginning, and that back in the 1980s she had wanted to rescue Thai sex workers in the Netherlands. To her surprise, they had told her they didn’t want to be rescued. They did not mind trading sex for money but wanted to earn more and work in better conditions. If she could help them with that, she was welcome. This and other similar interactions changed her views of sex work and sex workers.
“The personal struggle for me was to overcome the mainstream moral hypocrisy into which I had been socialized.”
Lin Lap Chew, GAATW founding mother
When she told me this story, I remembered something that Lin Lap Chew, one of GAATW’s founding mothers, wrote in Trafficking and Prostitution Reconsidered about the evolution of her own views at the time: “I [was] convinced that I was not against the women who worked as prostitutes, but that the patriarchal institution or prostitution should be dismantled”, she wrote. “But soon I was to learn, through direct and regular contact with women in prostitution, that […] the only way to break the stigma and marginalization of prostitutes was to accept the work that they do as exactly that – a form of work.” She ended with the observation that “The personal struggle for me was to overcome the mainstream moral hypocrisy into which I had been socialized.”
Regular conversations with sex workers made both of these committed activists change their view from ‘prostitution is patriarchal violence against women’ to ‘sex work is work’. That doesn’t always happen, of course and I’ve long wondered why. Why does speaking with sex workers change some people’s minds about sex work, but not others’? I don’t have the answer, and probably never will. What I suspect is the case is that some people simply give more credence to their favourite academic theoreticians, such as Kathleen Barry, than to the words of real-life women in sex work.

Sex work as work, sex workers’ rights as workers’ rights​

GAATW’s support for the sex worker rights movement stems from our conviction that women are better able to challenge power and bring about change when they organise to collectively analyse their situation. This is as true for sex workers as it is for Indigenous, Dalit, migrant or trafficked women, farmers, domestic workers, and hawkers. We are honoured to stand in solidarity with their struggles. We do not pretend to speak on their behalf and GAATW will never lead a campaign on decriminalisation. But we will support those who do.
That said, we do encourage our partners in the women’s rights, labour rights, migrant rights and anti-trafficking fields to engage with sex workers as part of the larger struggle for human rights and workers’ rights. Even people who despise sex work should agree that those in it should be free from violence and stigma. They should also agree that all workspaces should have decent working conditions, regardless of the nature of work. To wish anything else – to posit that sex workers should face violence, stigma, and abuse at work because their livelihoods raise moral questions – is an odd position to take. As a colleague from another organisation told me once, “I don’t have particular feelings about the garment industry. But I want the workers who make clothes to do so in good conditions”.
For all the talk of the unique nature of the trade, exploitation in the sex industry isn’t unique at all.
GAATW does not separate ‘trafficking for sexual exploitation’ from ‘trafficking for labour exploitation’ (or ‘sex trafficking’ from ‘labour trafficking’ as they say in the US) as most organisations do. When necessary we specify whether we are talking about trafficking in the sex industry, or in domestic work, or in construction, agriculture, fishing, etc. This may seem petty and unimportant but it’s not. Language shapes thought. Drawing a line between ‘sexual exploitation’ and ‘labour exploitation’ in itself suggests that sex work is not work. Anyone who agrees that sex work is work should avoid referring to different forms of trafficking in this way. In particular, American activists, journalists, researchers and others concerned with sex workers’ safety should absolutely stop using the term ‘sex trafficking’.
We follow the same strategy in our mutual learning and knowledge sharing work. Migrant and trafficked women’s stories are strikingly similar regardless of the sector in which they are exploited. They all speak of deceptive agents and brokers, limited freedom of movement, physical, psychological, and sexual violence at the workplace, as well as stigma upon return. The strategies that women use to resist and escape exploitation are similar too. Our mutual learning exercises have taught us that, for all the talk of the unique nature of the trade, exploitation in the sex industry isn’t unique at all.
It is well known that some migrant women working in, for example, domestic work, garment factories, or restaurants do sex work on the side to earn more money. Yet, trade unions and NGOs working on migrants’ rights, domestic workers’ rights, and garment workers’ rights see sex work and sex workers’ rights as something completely unrelated to their work and their communities. When we organise meetings for different stakeholders, we always invite sex worker rights groups. This strategy has led to some people recognising the common experiences of women working in different sectors and at least being more open to learning about sex workers’ struggles.
Section_Divider.original.jpg

Advocating for the rights of sex workers to other groups is not an easy task. I often hear from our partners that they ‘don’t have a position on sex work’. I understand where this is coming from, but it highlights a gap in logic that often appears when talk turns to sex work. GAATW doesn’t have a position on many issues or groups of women. We don’t have a position on cooking or selling vegetables on the street, even though there are women who cook or sell vegetables all around us in Bangkok. Yet our instinct would always be to stand in solidarity with them and support them in their demands, whatever these are – for example, for the right to work where they can attract the most customers, maintain decent prices, and protect themselves against exploitative rents and corrupt government officials. These are the demands of all workers, including sex workers. Trade unions, women’s rights and migrants’ rights organisations should stand in solidarity with them.
Have your own ideas about effectively speaking about and arguing for the decriminalisation of sex work? Write to us.
This series has been financially supported by Humanity United.


There is a lot of information in this site. I think it includes the personal stories of some sex workers and why they have chosen this line of work. I don't think we women do them justice when we make assumptions about them being victims. Of course, nobody should be forced to be a sex worker, anymore than someone should be forced to be a nurse or a waitress etc.

Okay. Remind me again what this has to do with Republicans are idiots? 😆 Oh wait. Most of them are Christians who think that sex workers are sinners. Am I right?
 
https://www.aclu.org/news/topic/its-time-to-decriminalize-sex-work

The criminalization of sex work makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence on the job and less likely to report violence. It prevents sex workers from accessing health care and other critical services, feeds an out of control mass incarceration system, and further marginalizes some of society’s most vulnerable groups, such as trans women of color and immigrants.

Sex workers deserve the same legal protections as anybody else. They should be able to maintain their livelihood without fear of violence or arrest, access health care and other services without discrimination, and seek justice when they are harmed. Decriminalization would help bring sex workers out of the dangerous margins and into the light where people are protected — not targeted — by the law.

For key findings on the impacts of sex work criminalization and decriminalization models, read the full brief, “Is Sex Work Decriminalization the Answer? What the Research Tells Us.
Download Now
Last updated on July 3, 2023
Share This Page

What does decriminalization mean?​

Decriminalization refers to the removal of criminal penalties for the buying and selling of sexual acts, specifically those categorized as prostitution. Decriminalization is not the same as legalization.
Legalization removes criminal penalties for certain incidents of buying and selling of sexual acts, i.e. prostitution, provided the participants comply with relevant regulations.
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-should-we-find-that-surprising-10083175.html

Prevalent discourse would have you believe that sex workers are problems to deal with, or victims to ‘save’. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. In fact, when you ask sex workers about their job satisfaction and working conditions – as a study led by Leeds University just has – the majority of them are happy. When asked to describe their work, respondents typically selected positive or neutral words. 91 per cent of sex workers described their work as ‘flexible’, 66 per cent described it as ‘fun’ and over half find their job ‘rewarding’.

The headlines today have focused on the findings that the majority of the 240 sex workers who responded to the survey had worked in other jobs, particularly in social and healthcare professions, and were well-educated. But this came as no real surprise to other sex workers or experts in the field, who are well aware that the common view of sex workers is wrong.


But the findings of this study will no doubt prove to be unfathomable to the coalition of radical feminists and conservative Christians who have overlooked their deeply held differences to criminalise the purchase of sex in Northern Ireland, and who advocate for the introduction of similar laws for the rest of the UK. Their proposals are based on the so-called Swedish Model which criminalises the purchase of sex, based on a construction of sex work as gender-based violence against women.

That's enough for now.
 
But it is NOT being managed anywhere!!!!
Yes, it is.
I think men find it easier to to believe that it’s essentially a victimless crime than women do.
In many places (including here) it isn't a crime at all.

The USA is an outlier in this area of law, when compared to the rest of the OECD, probably because of your (also an outlier) levels of religiousity.
Really. So in Australia there is no illegal sex trafficking?


 
Back
Top Bottom