Let's Invade Russia!

[Elixir]

The amazing self contradictions of Dr Z:

I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. ... He was voted for, fair and square.

Also from the illustrious Dr:

Zelensky is a scumbag. ... Ukrainians all seem to agree on that ... I never said Zelenskyy is hated by the Ukrainians.

So your implication is that Ukranians love scumbags? Ooookay.

Just ... Wow.
I'm not even sure I disagree with what you actually meant to say... but it's not clear what you meant to say. Maybe it makes more sense in Danish?

 

[Politesse]

I've seen this war described in terms of a turf war between the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Both, as it happens, dominated by Jewish mobsters. Considering the power the maffia has in these countries (much thanks to Brezhnev and the Jeltzin) I think that's a perfectly valid characterization. No matter what side you back, you're going to be backing one horrendous maffia organisation over an other, equally horrendous, maffia organisation.

As corrupt shithole nations go, these are both very far down on the slippery slope.

That speaks volumes as to where you get your information, but does not evidence in support of your claims. In point of fact, positing that major world governments are run by secret Jewish cabals sounds way more Nazi-adjacent to me than anything I've ever heard Zelenskyy say or do.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The amazing self contradictions of Dr Z:

I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. ... He was voted for, fair and square.

Also from the illustrious Dr:

Zelensky is a scumbag. ... Ukrainians all seem to agree on that ... I never said Zelenskyy is hated by the Ukrainians.

So your implication is that Ukranians love scumbags? Ooookay.

Just ... Wow.
I'm not even sure I disagree with what you actually meant to say... but it's not clear what you meant to say. Maybe it makes more sense in Danish?

My implication is that Ukranians aren't stupid. They know that their countries political system is a mess and that their choices are variants of awful.

Either you are an idiot, or you are trying very hard to misunderstand me. I don't think you are an idiot.

 

[Elixir]

positing that governments are run by secret Jewish cabals sounds way more Nazi-adjacent to me than anything I've ever heard Zelenskyy say or do.

Yes, THAT^.
I find it very curious, and tend to want to put it down to some strangely nuanced language barrier.

 

[Elixir]

They know that their countries political system is a mess and that their choices are variants of awful.

Apparently they (unlike you) know that Zelensky is less corrupt and more willing to fight for democracy than the Russian puppet who preceded him.
That would make your whole screed one bigass false equivocation.

"Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong."

THAT is what you put forth, and what you're sticking to. It's at odds with the facts on the ground. You seem to know that, but are too attached to your own words to admit it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've seen this war described in terms of a turf war between the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Both, as it happens, dominated by Jewish mobsters. Considering the power the maffia has in these countries (much thanks to Brezhnev and the Jeltzin) I think that's a perfectly valid characterization. No matter what side you back, you're going to be backing one horrendous maffia organisation over an other, equally horrendous, maffia organisation.

As corrupt shithole nations go, these are both very far down on the slippery slope.

That speaks volumes as to where you get your information, but does not evidence in support of your claims. In point of fact, positing that major world governments are run by secret Jewish cabals sounds way more Nazi-adjacent to me than anything I've ever heard Zelenskyy say or do.

Sigh. Jews are overrepresented in the Russian maffia because of anti-semitism. It's the same reason the American maffia used to be run by Italians and Jews. And now increasingly by blacks. Racism and marginalisation forces the go-getters with ambition from those groups into the maffia, because it's their only ticket to raise themselves from poverty. This shouldn't be controversial to anybody who understands how racism corrupts and distorts everything in a country. That doesn't make me a Nazi.

But it is interesting that your brain didn't go there. Instead you put me in the extreme right wing conspiracy theory hole. Let me guess, everybody who doesn't agree with you is just like Hitler?

Everyone I Don't Like Is Hitler

Everyone I Don’t Like Is Hitler is a photoshopped children’s book cover featuring a picture of Adolf Hitler sliding down a rainbow, which is often used as

knowyourmeme.com

 

[DrZoidberg]

They know that their countries political system is a mess and that their choices are variants of awful.

Apparently they (unlike you) know that Zelensky is less corrupt and more willing to fight for democracy than the Russian puppet who preceded him.
That would make your whole screed one bigass false equivocation.

"Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong."

THAT is what you put forth, and what you're sticking to. It's at odds with the facts on the ground. You seem to know that, but are too attached to your own words to admit it.

If you follow that logic that means I said Putin is also a Nazi. Has Putin called himself a Nazi? Has Zelenskyy called him a Nazi? I don't think that follows.

No. I think you are fully capable of understanding the meaning of what I said. So stop this childish nonsense.

 

[Elixir]

I think you are fully capable of understanding the meaning of what I said. So stop this childish nonsense.

The literal meaning of what you said is that you believe both Zelensky and Putin to be Nazis.
What you meant may or may not be something else, but that's your problem.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the pot/kettle analogy.
Putting that aside, "I don't think Putin is all that wrong" is an endorsement of a false equivocation of epic proportions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think you are fully capable of understanding the meaning of what I said. So stop this childish nonsense.

The literal meaning of what you said is that you believe both Zelensky and Putin to be Nazis.
What you meant may or may not be something else, but that's your problem.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the pot/kettle analogy.
Putting that aside, "I don't think Putin is all that wrong" is a false equivocation of epic proportions.

And what do we think of people who take everything litterally even when it's obviously not what is meant? Again, I don't think you really are this stupid. I think it's an act to win an argument. Give up .

 

[Politesse]

I've seen this war described in terms of a turf war between the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Both, as it happens, dominated by Jewish mobsters. Considering the power the maffia has in these countries (much thanks to Brezhnev and the Jeltzin) I think that's a perfectly valid characterization. No matter what side you back, you're going to be backing one horrendous maffia organisation over an other, equally horrendous, maffia organisation.

As corrupt shithole nations go, these are both very far down on the slippery slope.

That speaks volumes as to where you get your information, but does not evidence in support of your claims. In point of fact, positing that major world governments are run by secret Jewish cabals sounds way more Nazi-adjacent to me than anything I've ever heard Zelenskyy say or do.

Sigh. Jews are overrepresented in the Russian maffia because of anti-semitism. It's the same reason the American maffia used to be run by Italians and Jews. And now increasingly by blacks. Racism and marginalisation forces the go-getters with ambition from those groups into the maffia, because it's their only ticket to raise themselves from poverty. This shouldn't be controversial to anybody who understands who racism corrupts and distorts everything in a country. That doesn't make me a Nazi.

But it is interesting that your brain didn't go there. Instead you put me in the extreme right wing conspiracy theory hole. Let me guess, everybody who doesn't agree with you is just like Hitler?

What the hell sort of projection have you got going on there? You jump on this thread, accuse Zelenskyy of Nazi sympathies with no support whatsoever, start railing about Jews running criminal empires that secretly rule countries, and I'm the one Godwinning the thread?

No, I don't think you are a Nazi. But you're buying into some very ancient propaganda that they were all too happy to manipulate when they were on top of the pile, trying to justify various wars against their own poor and corrupt neighbors, and it makes your own stupid accusations look slightly hypocritical in addition to being merely unsupportable.

 

[Politesse]

And what do we think of people who take everything litterally even when it's obviously not what is meant?

You didn't make that obvious in any way. It looked like the thesis statement of the entire post, in fact. If it wasn't what you meant, you should be retracting the statement rather than passionately defending it. Insisiting that your meaning was non-literal doesn't change as much as you seem to think it does anyway, as I don't think it is any more acceptable to metaphorically or allegorically support the false accusations of Putin's regime. A false accusation is a false accusation no matter how much rhetoric you cloud it in or under.

 

[Elixir]

I think it's an act to win an argument. Give up .

Okay then, I give up. You don't think Zelensky is a Nazi, but he's a Nazi. He's better than Putin but he's exactly the same. Both governments are infinitely corrupt, but Russia is just slightly infinitely corrupter than Ukraine. Everyone in Ukraine knows Zelensky is a scumbag but they elected him fair and square in a landslide. Governments are run by secret Jewish mafias because Jews are poor and oppressed while controlling all the money, but Russia is de-nazifying places...

Hey - whatever, dude. Enjoy the universe you have created for yourself, I'm sure you deserve it and it makes perfect sense to you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've seen this war described in terms of a turf war between the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Both, as it happens, dominated by Jewish mobsters. Considering the power the maffia has in these countries (much thanks to Brezhnev and the Jeltzin) I think that's a perfectly valid characterization. No matter what side you back, you're going to be backing one horrendous maffia organisation over an other, equally horrendous, maffia organisation.

As corrupt shithole nations go, these are both very far down on the slippery slope.

That speaks volumes as to where you get your information, but does not evidence in support of your claims. In point of fact, positing that major world governments are run by secret Jewish cabals sounds way more Nazi-adjacent to me than anything I've ever heard Zelenskyy say or do.

Sigh. Jews are overrepresented in the Russian maffia because of anti-semitism. It's the same reason the American maffia used to be run by Italians and Jews. And now increasingly by blacks. Racism and marginalisation forces the go-getters with ambition from those groups into the maffia, because it's their only ticket to raise themselves from poverty. This shouldn't be controversial to anybody who understands who racism corrupts and distorts everything in a country. That doesn't make me a Nazi.

But it is interesting that your brain didn't go there. Instead you put me in the extreme right wing conspiracy theory hole. Let me guess, everybody who doesn't agree with you is just like Hitler?

What the hell sort of projection have you got going on there? You jump on this thread, accuse Zelenskyy of Nazi sympathies with no support whatsoever,

That never happened.

start railing about Jews running criminal empires that secretly rule countries, and I'm the one Godwinning the thread?

It's not railing. I didn't say Jews are secretly running countries. And it's not really a secret. When the USSR collapsed ex-KGB officials and the Mafia collaborated to take over the Russian economy and directly led to Putin's rise to power. If that's supposed to be a secret, it's the worst kept secret in history. This historical fact explains everything about what happened to Russia later. These same people are still in power. It really is an ex-KGB and mafia cabal running things in Russia. Ukraine is not much better.

Russian mafia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is a lot of Jews in the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Also has a log of Azerbaijanis, Armenians, and Georgians. Fun fact. Stalin was a Georgian gangster before he became a communist. Like I said, whenever there's systematic racism and ethnic marginalization, those groups tend to end up in the mafia more than other groups. And saying that isn't racism. Rather the opposite. It explains why there's so many marginalised people in the mafia without needing to resort to racial essentialist theories to explain it.

Here's another fun fact. In the 1970'ies the USSR kicked out a large group of Jews and sent them to USA. They came as defectors. These settled in Brooklyn and started the Russian maffia in USA. How come these Jews turned to such a shady life of crime once they had come to the land of the free? Because these Jews had all been gangsters in the Soviet Union. Crime was the only thing they knew. They weren't kicked out because they were Jews. They were kicked out because they had become too powerful to keep in Russia. But in the 80'ies Brezhnev reversed that policy, and empowered the mafia, essentially making them an arm of the government. Because he liked having decadent parties with hookers and coke. He didn't give a shit about communist ideals. Which then allowed them to quickly take over the economy once the Soviet government had collapsed. At that point they were the only people with any money in Russia.

It's you who are continually making yourself guilty of the one thing that I said I dislike about the media reporting of Ukraine. Namely, that all nuance is gone, Zelenskyy is made a hero and Putin a villain. When in reality, they're not that different. That was my only point. And if we send troops to prop up the Ukranian government we are essentially picking in a side in a mafia gang war. I still think we should. But the way this war is portrayed in Western media is a fantasy.

No, I don't think you are a Nazi. But you're buying into some very ancient propaganda that they were all too happy to manipulate when they were on top of the pile, trying to justify various wars against their own poor and corrupt neighbors, and it makes your own stupid accusations look slightly hypocritical in addition to being merely unsupportable.

You are completely confusing things. You are conflating old right wing propaganda with progressive theories on why some people turn to crime, even though they're genetically not different from rich or white people. It's the black-and-white fallacy.

 

[Elixir]

It's not railing. I didn't say Jews are secretly running countries. And it's not really a secret

More self contradiction.
Or are you saying that the falsity of your assertion is not really a secret? Or that it's not really a secret that Jews are not running countries, or that they are running countries but it's not a secret...
You are one super-confused person with a lot of emotional baggage you're trying to unload on... basically everyone. That's my read, because nothing you say makes sense on its own.

Zelenskyy is made a hero and Putin a villain. When in reality, they're not that different.

Sure, Doc.
That's why Pootey has to hide from his public and pay/force people to attend his rallies, while Zelenskyy inspires people to voluntarily lay down their lives to defend against invaders. Pootey hides at the other end of a table as long as a football field, while Zelensky shows up in the trenches, on the front lines and in the besieged capitol. If one fucking bottle rocket came within miles of the Kremlin, Pootey would be off to one of his billion dollar hideouts. Yeah, they're not that different, just like day and night are not that different...

 

[Elixir]

He can be both corrupt and popular.

Declaring Zelensky corrupt doesn't make him corrupt.
In a world of corruption, the least corrupt can be the most popular, it's true.

 

[Politesse]

It's you who are continually making yourself guilty of the one thing that I said I dislike about the media reporting of Ukraine. Namely, that all nuance is gone, Zelenskyy is made a hero and Putin a villain. When in reality, they're not that different. That was my only point. And if we send troops to prop up the Ukranian government we are essentially picking in a side in a mafia gang war. I still think we should. But the way this war is portrayed in Western media is a fantasy.

Alright, I guess we need some more subtlety.

To which end, I would like to rescind my previous comment that "I don't think you are a Nazi".

It would apparently be better to say that if someone else were to say that you are Nazi, I think they would not be all that wrong.

Keeping in mind that according to you, when you said the exact same words about Zelenskyy, we were stupid to assume you were accusing him of Nazi sympathies, you should have nothing in the above sentence to object to. Correct?

 

[steve_bank]

I thought this is history not current events.

As I understand it from reporting there is/was a small Neo Nazi group in Ukraine. Not surprising considering they exist everywhere n Europe and North America.

This all started when Ukraine opted for the EU instead of the Russian Federation. Putin responded with natural gas sanctions.

Ukraine was told it would be allowed into NATO, but it never happened.

Ukraine essentially had a coup that eventually forced the pro Russian leader to flee to Russia. The late senator Macaine wassin Ukarain on TV calling them patriots.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I thought this is history not current events.

As I understand it from reporting there is/was a small Neo Nazi group in Ukraine. Not surprising considering they exist everywhere n Europe and North America.

This all started when Ukraine opted for the EU instead of the Russian Federation. Putin responded with natural gas sanctions.

Ukraine was told it would be allowed into NATO, but it never happened.

Ukraine essentially had a coup that eventually forced the pro Russian leader to flee to Russia. The late senator Macaine wassin Ukarain on TV calling them patriots.

All available evidence seems to indicate that the Ukrainian Neo Nazi story was wholly invented by Putin. A plant on social media. There's not a shred of evidence of it that doesn't originate from Russia. That's suspicious.

I think the story is this. Russia seizes Crimea, Ukraine realizes that they have nothing to stop Russia. So they expand the home defense volunteer forces (not regular army). Due to the degree of their alarm at that time they let any riff raff into their ranks. Some of these belonged to the far-right Azov regiment (while they have the word "regiment" in their name, it isn't one). But they were never in control of the armed forces and they were never allowed to run rampant or given a free pass to commit atrocities. They were, of course, kept on a very short leash by the regular army.

It's super important to keep in mind that the Ukrainian government is broke and has always been. The money for doing anything in that country comes from oligarchs. Ie, essentially the mafia. The Ukrainian government is more like a festive wrapper to hide where true power lies. When the Ukrainian government does anything it's because some of their oligarchs have agreed to pay for it. That includes fighting Russia.

Al Jazeera is usually quite reliable when it comes to stuff going on in that part of the world.

Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment?

The far-right neo-Nazi group has expanded to be part of Ukraine’s armed forces, a street militia and a political party.

www.aljazeera.com

It's also important to understand that the western good governance narrative is a story. In the west we created a story, the liberal democratic story, and we made it true. We keep telling us this story in order to keep the liberal democratic society going. And now we've had it for so long that we behave as if it's normal. While in Russia the raw naked power of the oligarchs and mafia bosses, is so glaring and apparent, that they can't be bothered to keep the liberal democracy narrative going. It's so obviously not true.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sure, Doc.
That's why Pootey has to hide from his public and pay/force people to attend his rallies, while Zelenskyy inspires people to voluntarily lay down their lives to defend against invaders. Pootey hides at the other end of a table as long as a football field, while Zelensky shows up in the trenches, on the front lines and in the besieged capitol. If one fucking bottle rocket came within miles of the Kremlin, Pootey would be off to one of his billion dollar hideouts. Yeah, they're not that different, just like day and night are not that different...

This is the synopsis we are fed by western media, trying really hard, to make Zelenskyy into a larger than life hero, on level with Frodo and Luke Skywalker. Well done swallowing this simplistic media narrative whole.

I'm pretty sure both Zelenskyy and Putin both have a laser focus on doing whatever it takes to stay in power. I am convinced that, right now, both are about as worried that power is slipping from their grasp. And they rightly should be. Both of them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun facts.

1) Oil is traded in USD. A devalued Rubel means that Putin personally is getting super rich from the war. Because of the sanctions. This might lead to him getting deposed by the Russian people. But Putin himself and his oligarch cronies is grossly enriched by this war. So believing that the sanctions are hurting them is a fantasy.

2) USA does very little trade with Russia. So the embargo has very little impact on them. The EU does a lot of trade with Russia. My electricity bill instantly went up by 25% after sanctions were put in place. These sanctions hurts Europe about as much as they hurt Russia. If anything they benefit USA, since it, by necessity, ties Europe closer to USA. My crystal ball says that European countries will drop these sanctions the second its politically possible to do so. Ideology is nice and all that. But money talks.

USA has an incentive to prolong the war. EU has an incentive to shorten the war. This will inform and influence diplomatic gestures.

3) China is the player the most hurt by the war and sanctions. They're the most economically vulnerable at the moment. China basically swaps t-shirts for oil and steel. They want this war, and the sanctions ended ASAP.

This war might bring EU and China closer together, and they will push Putin to peace diplomatically and USA ends up being sidelined, and we get a new Chinese-European hegemony. Which will lead to a weakened force for democracy in the world.

I'm not saying this will happen. But I see this as a likely scenario if the war keeps going.