Let's Invade Russia!

[Elixir]

I’d like some examples of CURRENT corruption in Ukraine’s government.
I’d also like an example or two of a leader of a corrupt government placing him/herself in the line of fire in defending their country from an illegal invasion by a much larger corrupt government.
I sure can’t think of one.

You won’t find Uncle Vlad among his front line troops, nor would you find Kim, Duterte, Orban, Xi, Lukashenko or any other corrupt dictator placing themselves in harm’s way in defense of their Country, or rallying the free world around their cause.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

 

[bilby]

Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

Clearly the people I keep seeing in the media who are portrayed as Ukrainian are imposters then.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

Clearly the people I keep seeing in the media who are portrayed as Ukrainian are imposters then.

Or the ones you are listening to are connected to the government somehow and have an agenda? They can support Zelenskyy while at the same time thinking he's a scumbag. I mean... there is a war on.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

Totally disagree with you. First off, all politicians who win in a popular vote have some sleazy background. You can't win unless you're a conniving asshole willing to make any compromise to win. But this isn't a war between two nations. One nation invaded another based-on bullshit (nazis!). There are no Russian citizens under threat. Zelensky is a very typical Politian with one exception: he's one of the few willing to fight his country against incredible odds.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

Totally disagree with you. First off, all politicians who win in a popular vote have some sleazy background. You can't win unless you're a conniving asshole willing to make any compromise to win. But this isn't a war between two nations. One nation invaded another based-on bullshit (nazis!). There are no Russian citizens under threat. Zelensky is a very typical Politian with one exception: he's one of the few willing to fight his country against incredible odds.

At no point have I said Zelenskyy is Nazi. You're confusing me with Barbos. I give very little credence to anything Putin says. None, actually.

You're totally conflating things. Every politician who wins the popular vote isn't a populist. Zelenskyy is. Populists are the same all over. All horrible people leading horrible political parties. He's a stand up comedian, and the only thing he had going for him is that he wasn't a Russian puppet. That's why people voted for him. A bit like the German's primarily voting for Hitler because he would never cooperate with communists (until he did).

Media in the Ukraine is dysfunctional. Journalists who don't write what they are told are routinely harrassed and murdered. Russian oligarchs basically control Ukrainian media. Russian oligarchs are best buddies with the maffia. When the people of Ukraine go and vote, it's like throwing darts into the dark. Their media is so dysfunctional they have no way of informing themselves.

Ukraine: Freedom in the World 2020 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2020 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Ukraine.

freedomhouse.org

It's worth comparing post communist Eastern Europe with post colonial Africa. In hindsight there is no mystery why those countries mostly went to shit. Outside forces had immense power in the nations, and they had an incentive to keep the countries unstable. In a situation like this running for office is a lot less straight forward than it is in a stable sovereign democratic nation. It's not going to attract good people. And if good people ever get into high positions of power they will quickly learn that they can't really do much, and they will soon go and find a better job, usually somewhere in the west. When Afghanistan fell to the Americans in 2003. Where did they they find the Afghan nationals to run their nation? Mostly outside Afghanistan. All the talent had left.

 

[bilby]

He's a stand up comedian

So, intelligent, insightful, unafraid to appear foolish for the benefit of strangers, able to recognise and point out absurdities without being cruel about it, and aware of what issues the public in general consider important?

I think that's the perfect background for a political leader. It's got to be better than lawyer, CEO, military officer, or Head of the Secret Police.

 

[Politesse]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

So essentially your problem is that he came from a country you dislike. Not anything that he actually did, that you can cite, just your opinion of his country of origin?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

So essentially your problem is that he came from a country you dislike. Not anything that he actually did, that you can cite, just your opinion of his country of origin?

No. Not at all. Enjoy your straw man. You're so off base from anything I said I don't find it meaningful to reply.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem with the Ukraine being a failed state is that if the west would deploy troops to defend it, all that is likely to happen is that a different scumbag will end up enriching themselves at the Ukrainian people's expense. Nothing much will change. I'm still for the west deploying troops to push back Russia, if only to preserve world peace. But I am fully aware that that is a decision based on ideology. Not sensible policy.

War is very expensive. Defending Ukraine is almost guaranteed to just lost money, regardless of if Ukraine wins or loses. Committing that amount of cash is going to hurt. I fully understand if the people paying (which will be us living in the west) want guarantees that money isn't wasted.

After the invasion there was voices to fast track the Ukraine within both the EU and NATO. Both organizations reacted in horror and shut those ideas down very fast. We don't want to hand over the keys to the kingdom to politicians barely distinguishable from gangsters.

 

[Hermit]

The problem with the Ukraine being a failed state is that if the west would deploy troops to defend it, all that is likely to happen is that a different scumbag will end up enriching themselves at the Ukrainian people's expense.

Alternatively, Ukraine, which according to the site you linked to, has
an overall freedom rating of 62/100, political rights rating of 27/40 and civil liberties rating of 35/60
will be annexed by a country with
an overall freedom rating of 19/100, political rights rating of 5/40 and civil liberties rating of 14/60.

It seems you have not thought your argument through.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem with the Ukraine being a failed state is that if the west would deploy troops to defend it, all that is likely to happen is that a different scumbag will end up enriching themselves at the Ukrainian people's expense.

Alternatively, Ukraine, which according to the site you linked to, has
an overall freedom rating of 62/100, political rights rating of 27/40 and civil liberties rating of 35/60
will be annexed by a country with
an overall freedom rating of 19/100, political rights rating of 5/40 and civil liberties rating of 14/60.

It seems you have not thought your argument through.

As I have said many times before in this thread, Russia's badness doesn't elevate Ukraine. Comparing those numbers have zero bearing on my argument. Its a red herring.

Yes, Russia is a bigger mess than Ukraine. So? Fasttracking Russia to join EU or NATO is not in the cards. So why bring up Russia's numbers?

 

[Hermit]

The problem with the Ukraine being a failed state is that if the west would deploy troops to defend it, all that is likely to happen is that a different scumbag will end up enriching themselves at the Ukrainian people's expense.

Alternatively, Ukraine, which according to the site you linked to, has
an overall freedom rating of 62/100, political rights rating of 27/40 and civil liberties rating of 35/60
will be annexed by a country with
an overall freedom rating of 19/100, political rights rating of 5/40 and civil liberties rating of 14/60.

It seems you have not thought your argument through.

...why bring up Russia's numbers?

Because you have repeatedly equated Ukraine with Russia, and the link to Freedom House you have supplied yourself contradicts your claim in no uncertain manner.

Not that it matters. If Freedom House ratings of Ukraine and Russia were reversed, the US/Nato would still support the former simply because the latter is more of a geopolitical rival. It's called Realpolitik.

 

[Elixir]

As Russia’s military ramps up its attack on Ukraine, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has distributed up to 18,000 assault rifles with ammunition to citizens willing to defend the country.
No evidence that any of the recipients are Nazis... or corrupt...
Don't know why Dr. Z insists that these Ukranians who are laying down their lives for their countries under Zelenskyy's leadership, don't like him.

corrupt shit show of a nation?

It sure was under Yanukovych.

The current president won in a landslide against the hated Russian puppet. It was a direct (no 'electoral college' bullshit) democratic vote among citizens 18 and older.
But surely Dr. was a direct witness to massive electoral fraud, such as takes place in banana republics like the United States... or he wouldn't go out on a limb and claim that the 2019 Ukrainian election was fraudulent, right?

Here's the hated new president arming his private Nazi army - right, Dr. Z?...

 

[Politesse]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

So essentially your problem is that he came from a country you dislike. Not anything that he actually did, that you can cite, just your opinion of his country of origin?

No. Not at all. Enjoy your straw man. You're so off base from anything I said I don't find it meaningful to reply.

Then offer some actual evidence to back up your accusations. In what specific way is Putin "not all that wrong" to describe Volodymyr Zelenskyy as a Nazi? Which Nazi ideologies does Zelenskyy support? Which of their methodologies or policies has he emulated? All you say here is "his country is corrupt". No shit! All countries are corrupt. That's not a suitable excuse for describing all of their citizens as Nazis.

 

[Elixir]

All countries are corrupt. That's not a suitable excuse for describing all of their citizens as Nazis.

Maybe it would be, in Denmark? Supposedly "the least corrupt country in the world".
Apparently that gives Dr Z license to deem whoever he likes "less corrupt" than whoever he dislikes.
Like you, Poli, I am curious about what attributes drive Dr Z to place Pootey and his kleptocratic dictatorship above what was the democratically elected government of Ukraine.
Hollow claims of the wildly popular Zelensky being hated, or being a Jewish Nazi, are hardly credible, let alone convincing.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

So essentially your problem is that he came from a country you dislike. Not anything that he actually did, that you can cite, just your opinion of his country of origin?

No. Not at all. Enjoy your straw man. You're so off base from anything I said I don't find it meaningful to reply.

Then offer some actual evidence to back up your accusations. In what specific way is Putin "not all that wrong" to describe Volodymyr Zelenskyy as a Nazi? Which Nazi ideologies does Zelenskyy support? Which of their methodologies or policies has he emulated? All you say here is "his country is corrupt". No shit! All countries are corrupt. That's not a suitable excuse for describing all of their citizens as Nazis.

I'm not going to defend stuff I never said. Nor even slightly implied.

All counties are NOT corrupt. That's such an ignorant thing to say. A lot of countries are barely functioning at all. Russia and Ukraine are two examples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hollow claims of the wildly popular Zelensky being hated, or being a Jewish Nazi, are hardly credible, let alone convincing.

I never said Zelenskyy is hated by the Ukrainians. He WON an election. He was voted for, fair and square. In a corrupt shithole of a country. But he still won. And he is popular. He's also, a corrupt scumbag. He can be both corrupt and popular. Ukranians have just extremely low expectations of their leadership. No doubt because it's been dysfunctional mess for centuries. Almost a millennia. I never said he was a Nazi. Putin is genuinely popular in Russia. Does that make him a good person? Your logic is broken,.

You and Politesse are excellent examples of what I am criticising. The seeming inability of the western press and opinion not to think in dichotomies. If Zelenskyy is opposed to Putin, he must be good. No, he doesn't have to be a good person. Nor does he have to represent western values.

 

[Politesse]

Fun fact, Zelensky is a populist candidate in one of the world's most corrupt countries. Supporting that guy is a bit like supporting ISIS in their fight against Assad. Putin's badness can impossibly fix Zelensky's glaring issues.

The good vs bad dichotomy, where Zelensky is portrayed as the hero of the nation is awfully misplaced IMHO. Any support for that guy, must surely come with a very short leash allowing the west to nudge the Ukraine away from being a failed state. Which it has been up until now.

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

What exactly has Zelenskyy done to deserve such bitter condemnation?

Win an election in a corrupt shit show of a nation? I don't think it's possible for decent people to gain power in countries like that. Both countries have amazingly powerful maffia organisations who are so powerful they are political players and can to some extent act kingmakers.

People like to think in dichotomies. Its normal, but is a cognitive bias. Putin's badness and aggression doesn't elevate Zelensky.

I find it troubling the way Zelensky has gained hero status on western media. Its a war between two nations led by terrible and corrupt people. That doesn't justify the war, or mean we shouldn't support Ukraine. But Zelensky is a scumbag. Ukrainians all seem to agree on that

So essentially your problem is that he came from a country you dislike. Not anything that he actually did, that you can cite, just your opinion of his country of origin?

No. Not at all. Enjoy your straw man. You're so off base from anything I said I don't find it meaningful to reply.

Then offer some actual evidence to back up your accusations. In what specific way is Putin "not all that wrong" to describe Volodymyr Zelenskyy as a Nazi? Which Nazi ideologies does Zelenskyy support? Which of their methodologies or policies has he emulated? All you say here is "his country is corrupt". No shit! All countries are corrupt. That's not a suitable excuse for describing all of their citizens as Nazis.

I'm not going to defend stuff I never said. Nor even slightly implied.

I have literally quoted your post. I quote it again:

Putin calling Zelensky a Nazi is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't think Putin is all that wrong.

Those are your words. Defend your stupid accusation with evidence or retract it. The man deserves better than to be vaguely and inaccurately accused of Nazism, especially at a time when that accusation is part of the justifying argument for the invasion of a sovereign nation and the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've seen this war described in terms of a turf war between the Russian and Ukrainian maffia organisations. Both, as it happens, dominated by Jewish mobsters. Considering the power the maffia has in these countries (much thanks to Brezhnev and the Jeltzin) I think that's a perfectly valid characterization. No matter what side you back, you're going to be backing one horrendous maffia organisation over an other, equally horrendous, maffia organisation.

As corrupt shithole nations go, these are both very far down on the slippery slope.