Magic

[steve_bank]

Had no idea people would remember Castenada. I met someone a few years go who back in the day went onto a reservation to take peyote when it was legal for outsiders to participate as part of the Native American Church.

Why does the Native American Church use peyote?


Peyote, eaten in the ritual context, enables the individual to commune with God and the spirits (including those of the departed) in contemplation and vision and so to receive from them spiritual power, guidance, reproof, and healing.

I remember a scene in the book when he has an AHA! moment. He was being influenced by drugs and the power of suggestion. Power of suggestion being an essential ingredient n folk magic.

It is also important in stage magic.

I'd have to fact check, I believe in some out out the way place in Europe Houdini was actually accused of witchcraft.

 

[steve_bank]

...

No, pay very close attention to what I asked.

I asked:

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

I did not discuss whether it had anything to do with sigils materially, or whether some fantastic thing was happening. I did not propose some non-real effect of material. I did not propose any thing.

All I said was what he did materially, and ask whether the effect would follow from that given cause.

Bob believes if he does some thing, there will be an effect.

I did not ask yet about the mechanism, I asked about the effect.

Part of this thread is to discuss the nature of the mechanism, but first it must be ascertained what the effect is, whether you expect there to be one.

My subjectively objective analysis combined with applying modal logic leads me to conclude oyou have no idea what you are doing.

 

[Jarhyn]

...

No, pay very close attention to what I asked.

I asked:

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

I did not discuss whether it had anything to do with sigils materially, or whether some fantastic thing was happening. I did not propose some non-real effect of material. I did not propose any thing.

All I said was what he did materially, and ask whether the effect would follow from that given cause.

Bob believes if he does some thing, there will be an effect.

I did not ask yet about the mechanism, I asked about the effect.

Part of this thread is to discuss the nature of the mechanism, but first it must be ascertained what the effect is, whether you expect there to be one.

My subjectively objective analysis combined with applying modal logic leads me to conclude oyou have no idea what you are doing.

So, you have devolved to just spouting garbage then and shitting on the floor. Very mature of you.

I asked whether Bob was wrong in believing that by doing the exercise that he can accomplish his goal, not in whether you are capable of dropping trow and shitting on the floor. We all knew you were capable of the latter.

 

[steve_bank]

You have developed a new form of logic, Muddled Logic.

 

[Elixir]

I think General Religion just got busted down to Corporal Religion.

 

[Jarhyn]

You have developed a new form of logic, Muddled Logic.

No, I asked you a very simple question and because you don't like to think about where I am going to go with it you shit on the floor.

 

[steve_bank]

You have developed a new form of logic, Muddled Logic.

No, I asked you a very simple question and because you don't like to think about where I am going to go with it you shit on the floor.

I still don't understand your example.

Is Bob's ritual supposed to make people watching the ritual brush their teeth, or does the spell make people who enter the bathroom brush their teeth. Magucally speking an inportant distinction.

In any case how do you now if somebody was going to brush their teeth anyway?

I give up I am stumped, what is Bob supposed to beleive?

 

[Jarhyn]

You have developed a new form of logic, Muddled Logic.

No, I asked you a very simple question and because you don't like to think about where I am going to go with it you shit on the floor.

I still don't understand your example.

Is Bob's ritual supposed to make people watching the ritual brush their teeth, or does the spell make people who enter the bathroom brush their teeth. Magucally speking an inportant distinction.

In any case how do you now if somebody was going to brush their teeth anyway?

I give up I am stumped, what is Bob supposed to beleive?

I asked specifically if the thing Bob did will work or not, for Bob.

It's a simple yes/no question: is Bob correct in believing that if he does the absurd thing I mentioned, that his goal of thinking to brush his teeth will likely be accomplished?

I would explore additional beliefs later, but this one belief is the belief I am exploring now.

 

[abaddon]

Nobody can know if it'll work. Bob doesn't know. His belief might make the power of suggestion work. The key word is "might".

Is "magic" the wrong word? Yes because of how baggage laden it is. It strongly implies mysterious goings-on between immaterial forces and material objects. So if his belief is in the power of suggestion but he's calling it "magic" then it's the wrong choice of word.

 

[Jarhyn]

Nobody can know if it'll work. Bob doesn't know. His belief might make the power of suggestion work. The key word here is MIGHT.

Is "magic" the wrong word? Yes because of how baggage laden it is. It evokes notions about mysterious goings-on between immaterial forces and material objects. So if his belief is in the power of suggestion but he's calling it "magic" then it's the wrong choice of word.

Sorry, but you don't get to decide for humanity and thousands of years (far more, really) what magic means for others.

It is common misconceptions about what Bob is doing that caused that evocation of such a notion, not the claim of Bob that his Magic is effective but in other people jumping to wild conclusions about what it is Bob is doing, and believing and why it's effects happen.

"Magic" is the term that has always, by people like Bob and the originators of many of the games of Corruptive Telephone that have resulted in your dubious understanding of the concepts that I'm going to discuss here.

So regardless of what you want or think is right, you don't get to be prescriptivist of this language. It's not yours to prescribe.

The key word is not "might" but rather "is highly likely to". To the same extent of likelihood that taking an antibiotic "might" keep Bob from dying from a bacterial infection.

So let's try this again, is Bob wrong in his belief that if he does that thing I described, that he will likely remember to brush his teeth when he goes into the bathroom?

Because if we can get to that point we can move on from here.

 

[abaddon]

Yes Bob's wrong. And Bob's a schizotypal spaz.

Let's say Bob visualizes a reward for brushing his teeth a few times and so he starts experiencing it as pleasurable to do it.

Is it behavioral conditioning or magic?

 

[skepticalbip]

Bob believes that when he draws a circle on the floor of his bathroom with a sigil, and studies that sigil until it vibrates in their vision and then says "brush my teeth" three times, whenever they enter the room they will feel a pull, an urge, to brush their teeth.

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

Bob can condition himself to want to brush his teeth when he sees the sigil.... (see Pavlov). If he believes that it will cause anyone who sees it to want to brush their teeth then Bob is delusional and a bit freaky.

 

[steve_bank]

I see some real magic happening here.
Gimme some of that 'old black magic'.
That girl she must have used used some Voodoo magic on me, I can't resist her.

Did somebody say magic?

In the cinext of the thread I'd say magic is taken to be synonymous with the supernatural. Rituals and incantations and objects that have an unseen causal effect on people and reality.

It is a loaded contectual word which was used as part of the OP title. The OP goes on to describe a ritual that would affect people. I guess we are supposed to magically deduce the intent of the OP title.

I was walking in a cave and found a ring that apparently makes me invisible. Lord Of The Rings and Star Wars are all about magic.

 

[steve_bank]

Nobody can know if it'll work. Bob doesn't know. His belief might make the power of suggestion work. The key word here is MIGHT.

Is "magic" the wrong word? Yes because of how baggage laden it is. It evokes notions about mysterious goings-on between immaterial forces and material objects. So if his belief is in the power of suggestion but he's calling it "magic" then it's the wrong choice of word.

Sorry, but you don't get to decide for humanity and thousands of years (far more, really) what magic means for others.

It is common misconceptions about what Bob is doing that caused that evocation of such a notion, not the claim of Bob that his Magic is effective but in other people jumping to wild conclusions about what it is Bob is doing, and believing and why it's effects happen.

"Magic" is the term that has always, by people like Bob and the originators of many of the games of Corruptive Telephone that have resulted in your dubious understanding of the concepts that I'm going to discuss here.

So regardless of what you want or think is right, you don't get to be prescriptivist of this language. It's not yours to prescribe.

The key word is not "might" but rather "is highly likely to". To the same extent of likelihood that taking an antibiotic "might" keep Bob from dying from a bacterial infection.

So let's try this again, is Bob wrong in his belief that if he does that thing I described, that he will likely remember to brush his teeth when he goes into the bathroom?

Because if we can get to that point we can move on from here.

I take clever sophistry to be a form of magic. Practitioners seem to believe it can magically affect people.

The line from Star Wars 'The Force works on the weak minded' and 'Jedyee mind tricks'. The power of suggestion.

Bob draws a symbol and gazes ubtil it vibrates, what's up with that? Have you been staring at pentagrams? Why In yiur example if Bob's symbol is vibrating do mean it really is or is he imagining it?

Have you ever practced magic rituals and spells? One of HP Lovecraft's themes was people playing with witchcraft and getting more than they bargained for.

The thread is nothing about magic and ritual.

It is another Jaryn thread on simlelogic made complcated and declaring everybody else wrong. Should be moved to the Logic forum unless it delves into issue like claims and proofs as for the theists.

 

[Politesse]

I see some real magic happening here.
Gimme some of that 'old black magic'.
That girl she must have used used some Voodoo magic on me, I can't resist her.

Did somebody say magic?

In the cinext of the thread I'd say magic is taken to be synonymous with the supernatural. Rituals and incantations and objects that have an unseen causal effect on people and reality.

It is a loaded contectual word which was used as part of the OP title. The OP goes on to describe a ritual that would affect people. I guess we are supposed to magically deduce the intent of the OP title.

I was walking in a cave and found a ring that apparently makes me invisible. Lord Of The Rings and Star Wars are all about magic.

I know very few Magick practicing types who would consider magic to be "supernatural". Nature is the center of the whole thing, they just understand her differently than do Christians and their ideological offspring.

 

[skepticalbip]

It is another Jaryn thread on simlelogic made complcated and declaring everybody else wrong. Should be moved to the Logic forum unless it delves into issue like claims and proofs as for the theists.

Yes. It looks like a typical 'argument' seen in internet philosophy forums that goes nowhere because the meaning of the terms are intentionally left nebulous so that any point made can be disputed by using a different definition of the term (which means not even arguing the same point). Jarhyn would have no question to argue if he defined what definition of "magic" he is using..

 

[steve_bank]

I see some real magic happening here.
Gimme some of that 'old black magic'.
That girl she must have used used some Voodoo magic on me, I can't resist her.

Did somebody say magic?

In the cinext of the thread I'd say magic is taken to be synonymous with the supernatural. Rituals and incantations and objects that have an unseen causal effect on people and reality.

It is a loaded contectual word which was used as part of the OP title. The OP goes on to describe a ritual that would affect people. I guess we are supposed to magically deduce the intent of the OP title.

I was walking in a cave and found a ring that apparently makes me invisible. Lord Of The Rings and Star Wars are all about magic.

I know very few Magick practicing types who would consider magic to be "supernatural". Nature is the center of the whole thing, they just understand her differently than do Christians and their ideological offspring.

I understand. As a form of religion and mythology it is no more or less than any other beliefs. Jaryn turned it into one his dissertations on simple logic and philosophizing, that is what I was saying.

A guy sitting on a floor staring at a symbol. Kind of a silly example.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The topic seems open-ended. I think the term "magic" can be applied to phenomenon which are not supernatural or impossible.

Carlos Cstenada wrote his first book on alleged experince living with a Mexican native brujo. In the end as I remember he relaizes his mystical experiences were the result of being fed hallucinogenics. The books were popular among the drug culture.

Is this true? I thought Castaneda (or rather the fictional version of himself depicted in The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge) was well aware that he was ingesting hallucinogens. Does this knowledge mean he didn't think he was experiencing "magic"?

Castaneda's books were full of made up nonsense.

The dark legacy of Carlos Castaneda

The godfather of the New Age led a secretive group of devoted followers in the last decade of his life. His closest "witches" remain missing, and former insiders, offering new details, believe the women took their own lives.

www.salon.com

 

[Jarhyn]

I see some real magic happening here.
Gimme some of that 'old black magic'.
That girl she must have used used some Voodoo magic on me, I can't resist her.

Did somebody say magic?

In the cinext of the thread I'd say magic is taken to be synonymous with the supernatural. Rituals and incantations and objects that have an unseen causal effect on people and reality.

It is a loaded contectual word which was used as part of the OP title. The OP goes on to describe a ritual that would affect people. I guess we are supposed to magically deduce the intent of the OP title.

I was walking in a cave and found a ring that apparently makes me invisible. Lord Of The Rings and Star Wars are all about magic.

I know very few Magick practicing types who would consider magic to be "supernatural". Nature is the center of the whole thing, they just understand her differently than do Christians and their ideological offspring.

I understand. As a form of religion and mythology it is no more or less than any other beliefs. Jaryn turned it into one his dissertations on simple logic and philosophizing, that is what I was saying.

A guy sitting on a floor staring at a symbol. Kind of a silly example.

No, you turned it into a whine-fest where you moan that someone is posting on a forum discussing a topic many deem religious as a religious topic while shitting on the floor.

I started the thread to discuss concepts of magic. The concepts I am personally discussing here are concepts of magic as understood by people who actually practice ritual magic.

The point of the ritual, part of what Bob understands makes it work at all, is the silliness of it.

This is the sum total of beliefs Bob has:
That people remember things that happen in locations with a bizarre or abnormal aspect to them.

So he figured out something suitably bizarre, attached it to a specific intent by speaking that intent in a memorable way as part of the bizarre action.

Now, when he enters the bathroom he remembers the bizarre occurrence and as a part of that memory of bizarre occurrence that he wants to brush his teeth and he's in a place where he can do that.

The more bizarre Bob makes the occurrence, the more visceral and magical he can make it feel, the more likely he is to remember it reliably.

Bob accepts all this: Bob does not believe in any presence outside of the operation of his own brain accomplished the effect.

It's an effect not unlike PTSD minus the anxiety and awfulness.

Bob does believe in what most people call "magic" having a real and useful effect.

Of course he could have picked any bizarre experience, but in order to leverage the power of suggestion as much as possible, he used something that people have long suggested works to the outcome, picked a sigil with an appropriate significance to health, and operated it in the way others suggested: to look at it until the point that an optical illusion of scintillation occurs at the edges of lines.

 

[steve_bank]

Its weird. Every time I see Bob in the tread I think of the movie Bod, Carol, Ted, and Alice about wife swapping.

What's up with the repetitious use of the word sigil? I had to look it up not being an expert in magical traditions. Where did you pick up the term? Are you an expert in magical traditions?

I would say Magic 101 is using technical jargon to create an aura or perception of the mystical. Creating a sense of awe in the target. Are you playing Jedeye mind tricks on us simple weak minded folk?

I have a strange urge to brush my teeth.