Male and female privileges acknowledgement thread

[Toni]

Second, I'd like to briefly break the 'rules' myself just to respectfully address your points. The having of two complimentary lists was not intended to imply equality of advantage or disadvantage.

Nor do I think either list is particularly good, the more I explore them both. They were just meant to be jumping off points and weren't particularly well vetted initially...

And now, hopefully, back to the OP.....

Before we go back to the purpose of your thread (which I think is a good one, btw), may I point out that I agree with the poor quality of the second article regarding "female privilege", with examples that are mostly not. The first article did a better job on both sides, though it did stretch the point almost to breaking to reach the title clickbait number of 101 on the male privilege side

The second article though, was horrible imo. For example:

As the cranky feminist Camille Paglia notes, "It is men who heft and weld the giant steel beams that frame our office buildings, and it is men who do the hair-raising work of insetting and sealing the finely tempered plate-glass windows of skyscrapers 50 stories tall." The vast majority of workplace fatalities are male. So are the vast majority of workers in policing, firefighting, war and other lethal professions. Do you think this arrangement is unfair to women? Me neither.

That's not female privilege. That's women being shut out of career paths that they may want to take. It is only recently that women have been allowed into combat units in the military, hired as firefighters, etc. The writer pretending that we are somehow "privileged" for being shut out of "male" career paths does a disservice to everyone (and to the spirit of this thread)

And I will save you the trouble:

And thank you for saying it. It was driving me crazy to ignore those points.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm a white guy ... I don't have enough time right now to list my privileges. Suffice it to say that I keep that in mind when considering social issues.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The privilege I am most starkly aware of is my first world privilege with my Canadian citizenship. Had my parents not moved here I would have had a very different life and I have seen it first hand. I don't think many living in the west truly appreciate it, especially those who were born in Canada or the USA and have not travelled.

Also with my Canadian citizenship comes universal single payer health care. That's quite a privilege.

 

[ruby sparks]

The privilege I am most starkly aware of is my first world privilege with my Canadian citizenship. Had my parents not moved here I would have had a very different life and I have seen it first hand. I don't think many living in the west truly appreciate it, especially those who were born in Canada or the USA and have not travelled.

Also with my Canadian citizenship comes universal single payer health care. That's quite a privilege.

Again, as with AF, not gender privilege, but........well said. I agree.

 

[ruby sparks]

The first article did a better job on both sides, though it did stretch the point almost to breaking to reach the title clickbait number of 101 on the male privilege side.

Did the first list offer any examples of female privilege? If not, how could it possibly do a better job on both sides?

Nor did you offer any. And no, to restate (just in case of misunderstanding), I am not implying equivalency. Men have more gender privileges, imo.

It was 167 male privileges in the first article by the way, not 101. Possibly you didn't even read the title properly, never mind the article.

For all the above reasons, and because you completely ignored the point of the thread, your post annoyed me. Really poor show, imo.

Ok I just broke my own rules.

So I will also save you the trouble and award this to myself:







The thread intentions will possibly go to the dogs now and I will have to take partial responsibility.




ETA: for those who want to start or have an ongoing ding dong in response to the lists, or just air disagreement, I originally posted them in another thread:
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?15980-What-Do-Men-Think-It-Means-To-Be-A-Man/page25

 

[ruby sparks]

It was driving me crazy to ignore those points.

I get that. My guess is that quite a few people on all 'sides' (unfortunate word but there you go) are having to try to bite their tongue after reading this thread.

And thank you for your earlier post. Not that you need thanks from me necessarily of course.

 

[Tigers!]

Three examples that always occur to me without being sure that they could be deemed a privilege for females are
1. Women live longer than men
2. Women control the wealth - since men die younger they leave it to wives, girlfriends etc.
3. Women control the vote (in Australia at least) - there are slightly more women of voting age than men

Probably more an observation that privilege.

 

[ruby sparks]

Three examples that always occur to me without being sure that they could be deemed a privilege for females are
1. Women live longer than men
2. Women control the wealth - since men die younger they leave it to wives, girlfriends etc.
3. Women control the vote (in Australia at least) - there are slightly more women of voting age than men

Probably more an observation that privilege.

Hi Tigers!

Briefly, personally I think no. 2 is very generous of you. Perhaps it's true specifically in the case of male partner dying and leaving to their female partners. I'm not sure I would call even that a gender privilege, since it likely works the other way around too.

No. 3 is also generous of you imo and may also be specific to Australia and I'm not sure I would call it a gender privilege, but that's just me and it could be argued to be I suppose, if it's a situation where one gender has more votes than another in a certain situation.

Even no.1 could have caveats added, imo. But then maybe other examples could too.

Ah. No. Hang on. Are you a man? If so, then....you were meant (it was hoped) to only 'fess up' (if that's the right expression, 'acknowledge' might be better), in this thread at least, to privileges you believe you or men have.

 

[RVonse]

My male privilege. I don't have to endure the pain of childbirth. Which is a good thing because when it comes to doctors and hospitals I am the biggest coward of them all.

 

[ruby sparks]

My male privilege. I don't have to endure the pain of childbirth. Which is a good thing because when it comes to doctors and hospitals I am the biggest coward of them all.

Indeed. And that's a biggie imo. It could be extended to not afterwards having a legacy of bodily (physical) damage, and sometimes psychological. Not having stretch marks might come under both.

And that's often just the start. I'll do another related one. As a father, I benefitted from the common and largely male privilege of having to do less of the primary caring of and related to our children. One aspect of this, which it took me a long time to appreciate (mostly only in hindsight) was not having to carry a fair share of the 'mental load' of parenting. And my wife went back to full time employment after a fairly short maternity leave in both cases of having a baby.

This one is probably anecdotal and to the extent that it's not anecdotal, I think things are improving somewhat, and I accept that it wouldn't be true for all men. It was one of my personal shortcomings. Oddly, I was convinced I was doing my share! Because, in my defence, I was doing quite a bit, a heck of a lot more than my father ever did and probably more than most of my male peers. I will also confess that it was (and if I'm honest still is to a lesser degree) very hard for me to admit to my wife that I actually didn't do anything like my fair share.

 

[southernhybrid]

That short list of female privilege was a joke. I thought for awhile and the only privilege that I could think of as a woman is that I have a lot more emotional intelligence than most of the men I've known. Emotional intelligence is important for surviving, improving your life and getting along with other people. But, seriously, that list of female benefits was dumb. The only reason that women are doing better in certain fields is because men have dominated them for so long and women are finally having the opportunity to fill traditional male roles.

As far as men doing the heavy stuff, how many men would like to be a nurse's aide that has to clean up the shit of confused older adults or shower them when they're agitated and trying to bite and scratch you? No. There are jobs that are hard and nasty that both genders dominate. The female jobs usually pay a lot less than the male jobs.

 

[RavenSky]

Did the first list offer any examples of female privilege? If not, how could it possibly do a better job on both sides?

The first article included this (which, let me remind you, your OP said is fine for discussion in this thread: "You can pick an example or examples from either of those articles"):

You know this norm – it’s idea that the only “real men” are the ones who don’t show their emotions, who solely value sports and physical strength, who don’t reach out for help when they need support.

And you probably also know that no man completely fits into this narrow box of masculinity, and that our society is unforgiving toward people who don’t fit what they’re “supposed” to be.

In other words, the first article also gave a few examples where men do NOT have "male privilege" to their own detriment.

Nor did you offer any.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...dgement-thread&p=594351&viewfull=1#post594351

And no, to restate (just in case of misunderstanding), I am not implying equivalency. Men have more gender privileges, imo.

Never said you did

 

[DrZoidberg]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

But here's the problem. If you don't dominate the conversation as a man, women will become angry, see you as a weak leader, and see you as less than a man. And this was, for example, coming from senior female managers of a large corporation who were extremely powerful in Sweden. They had zero tolerance with a man showing weakness when talking to them.

So I don't think this is so much a privilege as a requirement. If a man wants any respect, there's requirements.

I did learn that as a man I can make a point of including women. If I did that they'd think I was awesome. But that was more like a bonus.

I also noted that men dominating a conversation rarely understood they were. A man could interrupt women all the time, and be completely oblivious to it afterwards. I probably would have been to if I wasn't thinking about it all the time.

 

[starwater]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

But here's the problem. If you don't dominate the conversation as a man, women will become angry, see you as a weak leader, and see you as less than a man. And this was, for example, coming from senior female managers of a large corporation who were extremely powerful in Sweden. They had zero tolerance with a man showing weakness when talking to them.

So I don't think this is so much a privilege as a requirement. If a man wants any respect, there's requirements.

I did learn that as a man I can make a point of including women. If I did that they'd think I was awesome. But that was more like a bonus.

I also noted that men dominating a conversation rarely understood they were. A man could interrupt women all the time, and be completely oblivious to it afterwards. I probably would have been to if I wasn't thinking about it all the time.

Umm sorry no. IME as a female CEO the men who do this are disrespected by women. I will ask them politely at first to stop interrupting, if it persists I will ask them to stop more forcefully, or I will interupt the meeting, take them outside privatley and tell them to stop.

 

[Toni]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

But here's the problem. If you don't dominate the conversation as a man, women will become angry, see you as a weak leader, and see you as less than a man. And this was, for example, coming from senior female managers of a large corporation who were extremely powerful in Sweden. They had zero tolerance with a man showing weakness when talking to them.

So I don't think this is so much a privilege as a requirement. If a man wants any respect, there's requirements.

I did learn that as a man I can make a point of including women. If I did that they'd think I was awesome. But that was more like a bonus.

I also noted that men dominating a conversation rarely understood they were. A man could interrupt women all the time, and be completely oblivious to it afterwards. I probably would have been to if I wasn't thinking about it all the time.

Bull fucking shit.

When I was a very young woman, there was one guy in a group that I volunteered with. He was older, fairly good looking but not the best looking guy in the group. He was smart, knew what he was talking about and was very, very quiet. He was an exceptional leader who was admired and respected by all. He did not dominate any conversation and in fact he was extremely good at getting others, everyone to speak up, to say their peace. Every single woman adored him and would have gladly gone to bed with him at the slightest invitation. We didn't think him 'weak' or 'less of a man' but very, very sexy. And that was before we knew he played guitar and sang a bit.

At work, there are guys who like to dominate conversations. Women pretty much ignored them to the extent possible.

For the most part, women I know do not care much for bullies, which is what men who dominate conversations are.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

But here's the problem. If you don't dominate the conversation as a man, women will become angry, see you as a weak leader, and see you as less than a man. And this was, for example, coming from senior female managers of a large corporation who were extremely powerful in Sweden. They had zero tolerance with a man showing weakness when talking to them.

So I don't think this is so much a privilege as a requirement. If a man wants any respect, there's requirements.

I did learn that as a man I can make a point of including women. If I did that they'd think I was awesome. But that was more like a bonus.

I also noted that men dominating a conversation rarely understood they were. A man could interrupt women all the time, and be completely oblivious to it afterwards. I probably would have been to if I wasn't thinking about it all the time.

Bull fucking shit.

When I was a very young woman, there was one guy in a group that I volunteered with. He was older, fairly good looking but not the best looking guy in the group. He was smart, knew what he was talking about and was very, very quiet. He was an exceptional leader who was admired and respected by all. He did not dominate any conversation and in fact he was extremely good at getting others, everyone to speak up, to say their peace. Every single woman adored him and would have gladly gone to bed with him at the slightest invitation. We didn't think him 'weak' or 'less of a man' but very, very sexy. And that was before we knew he played guitar and sang a bit.

At work, there are guys who like to dominate conversations. Women pretty much ignored them to the extent possible.

For the most part, women I know do not care much for bullies, which is what men who dominate conversations are.

I did mention that it's something we're rarely notice. The only reason I did was because I was thinking about it.

I remember one woman I talked to and asked her about how she felt about a man who interrupted everything she said. They had the same rank. She hadn't noticed. People don't. It's so hardwired.

I encourage you to keep this in mind from now on. I bet you'll start noticing it. Once you keep it in mind it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Initially it was quite jarring. But now 20 years on, having worked in international teams, from all over.. It's everywhere.

I guess the only exception was Israeli teams where everybody interrupted everybody anyway. So it was hard to single out men. But Israeli women in mixed teams stopped. While Isaeli men didn't.

This isn't the only one. There's more quirks of gender. But this one is the easiest to spot IMHO.

 

[ruby sparks]

Nor did you offer any.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...dgement-thread&p=594351&viewfull=1#post594351

Apologies. I had read that when you posted it but somehow forgot when you posted again. My mistake.

Briefly, I don't agree that the 1st article mentioning a few patriarchal drawbacks for men under the label of 'norms of toxic masculinity' can reasonably be described as doing a good job on both sides, not least because it's not quite the same as independently acknowledging any female privileges (which is what would be 'the other side' to male privileges). Whatever you think of the female privileges offered in the second article (and I'm not defending them) and even if you feel there are far fewer of them than for men, the writer did at least explicitly acknowledge, and use as a jumping off point at the outset, male privileges, and at the end concluded that no one sex has a monopoly on privileges:

"The two sexes have different burdens and advantages, and also different preferences. Our notions of equality should allow for that."

Personally, I think that was a better balance, at least in respect of looking at both sides, even if they are uneven. But maybe we can agree to disagree. At least here.

 

[Toni]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

But here's the problem. If you don't dominate the conversation as a man, women will become angry, see you as a weak leader, and see you as less than a man. And this was, for example, coming from senior female managers of a large corporation who were extremely powerful in Sweden. They had zero tolerance with a man showing weakness when talking to them.

So I don't think this is so much a privilege as a requirement. If a man wants any respect, there's requirements.

I did learn that as a man I can make a point of including women. If I did that they'd think I was awesome. But that was more like a bonus.

I also noted that men dominating a conversation rarely understood they were. A man could interrupt women all the time, and be completely oblivious to it afterwards. I probably would have been to if I wasn't thinking about it all the time.

Bull fucking shit.

When I was a very young woman, there was one guy in a group that I volunteered with. He was older, fairly good looking but not the best looking guy in the group. He was smart, knew what he was talking about and was very, very quiet. He was an exceptional leader who was admired and respected by all. He did not dominate any conversation and in fact he was extremely good at getting others, everyone to speak up, to say their peace. Every single woman adored him and would have gladly gone to bed with him at the slightest invitation. We didn't think him 'weak' or 'less of a man' but very, very sexy. And that was before we knew he played guitar and sang a bit.

At work, there are guys who like to dominate conversations. Women pretty much ignored them to the extent possible.

For the most part, women I know do not care much for bullies, which is what men who dominate conversations are.

I did mention that it's something we're rarely notice. The only reason I did was because I was thinking about it.

I remember one woman I talked to and asked her about how she felt about a man who interrupted everything she said. They had the same rank. She hadn't noticed. People don't. It's so hardwired.

I encourage you to keep this in mind from now on. I bet you'll start noticing it. Once you keep it in mind it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Initially it was quite jarring. But now 20 years on, having worked in international teams, from all over.. It's everywhere.

I guess the only exception was Israeli teams where everybody interrupted everybody anyway. So it was hard to single out men. But Israeli women in mixed teams stopped. While Isaeli men didn't.

This isn't the only one. There's more quirks of gender. But this one is the easiest to spot IMHO.

WTF?????????

Did you not read the part where I noticed men talking or attempting to talk over women?

Of course you didn't. Why bother with something that contradicted your attitudes?

 

[starwater]

I did mention that it's something we're rarely notice. The only reason I did was because I was thinking about it.

I remember one woman I talked to and asked her about how she felt about a man who interrupted everything she said. They had the same rank. She hadn't noticed. People don't. It's so hardwired.

I encourage you to keep this in mind from now on. I bet you'll start noticing it. Once you keep it in mind it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Initially it was quite jarring. But now 20 years on, having worked in international teams, from all over.. It's everywhere.

I guess the only exception was Israeli teams where everybody interrupted everybody anyway. So it was hard to single out men. But Israeli women in mixed teams stopped. While Isaeli men didn't.

This isn't the only one. There's more quirks of gender. But this one is the easiest to spot IMHO.

WTF?????????

Did you not read the part where I noticed men talking or attempting to talk over women?

Of course you didn't. Why bother with something that contradicted your attitudes?

Another example of a man talking over a woman

 

[Toni]

I did mention that it's something we're rarely notice. The only reason I did was because I was thinking about it.

I remember one woman I talked to and asked her about how she felt about a man who interrupted everything she said. They had the same rank. She hadn't noticed. People don't. It's so hardwired.

I encourage you to keep this in mind from now on. I bet you'll start noticing it. Once you keep it in mind it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Initially it was quite jarring. But now 20 years on, having worked in international teams, from all over.. It's everywhere.

I guess the only exception was Israeli teams where everybody interrupted everybody anyway. So it was hard to single out men. But Israeli women in mixed teams stopped. While Isaeli men didn't.

This isn't the only one. There's more quirks of gender. But this one is the easiest to spot IMHO.

WTF?????????

Did you not read the part where I noticed men talking or attempting to talk over women?

Of course you didn't. Why bother with something that contradicted your attitudes?

Another example of a man talking over a woman

And thinking it makes him more dominant.