Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Arctish]

I think it's true that some men would be greatly insulted if they were asked if they were pregnant. I think some men would find it demeaning. I think that feeling is the result of sexist thinking that routinely demeans women.

So, when young boys or men are teased about gynecomastia, your advice would be 'you being upset about this is a sign that you have sexist thinking that demeans women'?

Yes.

I would advise him to learn about gynecomastia and other biological quirks that result in some people not conforming to society's gender expectations, like hirsutism in women or intersex conditions. I would tell him that there's nothing wrong with having male characteristics, female characteristics, intersex or asexual characteristics, but that sexism is deeply entrenched in our society so he'll probably have to deal with sex-based prejudice a lot, and I would urge him to seek out people who don't judge the worth of others based on their bodies.

And since the people harassing him are displaying very sexist thinking and trying to demean him, I would also advise him to avoid hanging out with them or buying into their bullshit.

 

[laughing dog]

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

So what? It is simply a double check to make sure they have the right person in the right place. It is no big deal no matter how much you go on about it.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes.

Wow. Nice to know you victim-blame the targets of bullies. I think meaningful discussion with a person like you about this subject is quite impossible.

 

[Metaphor]

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

So what? It is simply a double check to make sure they have the right person in the right place. It is no big deal no matter how much you go on about it.

Let's say the form says 'M, 26 years, John Doe'.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying 'what is your name', 'what is your sex', 'what is your age'. In fact, this is routine.

I do have a problem with asking male patients if they are pregnant, and I've already articulated the reasons why I have a problem with it.

I do have a problem with medical policy being formed around political tastes, of which this policy is but one example.

 

[Metaphor]

And since the people harassing him are displaying very sexist thinking and trying to demean him, I would also advise him to avoid hanging out with them or buying into their bullshit.

I am certain you don't know how bullying works.

 

[Arctish]

Yes.

Wow. Nice to know you victim-blame the targets of bullies. I think meaningful discussion with a person like you about this subject is quite impossible.

Wow.

Nice to know you didn't bother to read my post before hitting 'Reply' and spewing out whatever struck your ganglia.

It is sexist thinking that he should be ashamed of his body because something humans typically have is slightly larger on him than is typical for males. It is very sexist for others to attempt to insult and demean a male for having a characteristic commonly possessed by females. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that the more sexist a society is, the more insulting and demeaning it would be intended to be. Anyone raised in such a society would no doubt have been exposed to such thinking at a young age, and might even have been thoroughly indoctrinated into it. And the sooner they get over it, the better off they will be, even if their breast tissue is of a normal size for their sex.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes.

Wow. Nice to know you victim-blame the targets of bullies. I think meaningful discussion with a person like you about this subject is quite impossible.

Wow.

Nice to know you didn't bother to read my post before hitting 'Reply' and spewing out whatever struck your ganglia.

I read all of it. None of the rest of it justifies your blame the victim mentality. I am quite upset that people who have attitudes like yours might have influence in the world. I won't say any more because I'll be suspended if I told you exactly what I think.

 

[Arctish]

Yes.

Wow. Nice to know you victim-blame the targets of bullies. I think meaningful discussion with a person like you about this subject is quite impossible.

Wow.

Nice to know you didn't bother to read my post before hitting 'Reply' and spewing out whatever struck your ganglia.

I read all of it. None of the rest of it justifies your blame the victim mentality. I am quite upset that people who have attitudes like yours might have influence in the world. I won't say any more because I'll be suspended if I told you exactly what I think.

And what blame would that be?

My attitude is that gynecomastia is nothing to be ashamed of and that anyone who attempts to insult or demean a male person for having it is displaying sexism and being an a-hole.

 

[laughing dog]

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

So what? It is simply a double check to make sure they have the right person in the right place. It is no big deal no matter how much you go on about it.

Let's say the form says 'M, 26 years, John Doe'.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying 'what is your name', 'what is your sex', 'what is your age'. In fact, this is routine.

I do have a problem with asking male patients if they are pregnant, and I've already articulated the reasons why I have a problem with it.

You given your reasons, all of which ignore the double (or triple) checking dimension.

I do have a problem with medical policy being formed around political tastes, of which this policy is but one example.

Most policies involving human decision making have some political element to them. For some reason, you feel that your political tastes should dictate a UK health trust policy which indicates that you really have no problem with medical policy formed around political tastes as long as you approve of those tastes.

 

[Metaphor]

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

So what? It is simply a double check to make sure they have the right person in the right place. It is no big deal no matter how much you go on about it.

Let's say the form says 'M, 26 years, John Doe'.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying 'what is your name', 'what is your sex', 'what is your age'. In fact, this is routine.

I do have a problem with asking male patients if they are pregnant, and I've already articulated the reasons why I have a problem with it.

You given your reasons, all of which ignore the double (or triple) checking dimension.

I do have a problem with medical policy being formed around political tastes, of which this policy is but one example.

Most policies involving human decision making have some political element to them. For some reason, you feel that your political tastes should dictate a UK health trust policy

no. I don't think that. That is a libellous assertion you manufactured from whole cloth.

I'm allowed to discuss public policy, and I'm allowed to discuss what I think makes policy good or bad. I am not a dictator.

which indicates that you really have no problem with medical policy formed around political tastes as long as you approve of those tastes.

That males cannot get pregnant is not a political opinion. It is a brute fact.

This policy change was not about medical safety. It is about catering to the sensitivities of a movement with institutional power.

 

[Toni]

I think it's true that some men would be greatly insulted if they were asked if they were pregnant. I think some men would find it demeaning. I think that feeling is the result of sexist thinking that routinely demeans women.

So, when young boys or men are teased about gynecomastia, your advice would be 'you being upset about this is a sign that you have sexist thinking that demeans women'?

Of course the insult is directed at the person with gynecomastia. Because being in any way thought to be woman like, for a man or boy, is of course the gravest of insults possible in the universe.

Women know this. They've been taught that from early childhood.

 

[Toni]

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

So what? It is simply a double check to make sure they have the right person in the right place. It is no big deal no matter how much you go on about it.

Let's say the form says 'M, 26 years, John Doe'.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying 'what is your name', 'what is your sex', 'what is your age'. In fact, this is routine.

I do have a problem with asking male patients if they are pregnant, and I've already articulated the reasons why I have a problem with it.

You given your reasons, all of which ignore the double (or triple) checking dimension.

I do have a problem with medical policy being formed around political tastes, of which this policy is but one example.

Most policies involving human decision making have some political element to them. For some reason, you feel that your political tastes should dictate a UK health trust policy

no. I don't think that. That is a libellous assertion you manufactured from whole cloth.

I'm allowed to discuss public policy, and I'm allowed to discuss what I think makes policy good or bad. I am not a dictator.

which indicates that you really have no problem with medical policy formed around political tastes as long as you approve of those tastes.

That males cannot get pregnant is not a political opinion. It is a brute fact.

This policy change was not about medical safety. It is about catering to the sensitivities of a movement with institutional power.

I think it's true that some men would be greatly insulted if they were asked if they were pregnant. I think some men would find it demeaning. I think that feeling is the result of sexist thinking that routinely demeans women.

So, when young boys or men are teased about gynecomastia, your advice would be 'you being upset about this is a sign that you have sexist thinking that demeans women'?

Of course the insult is directed at the person with gynecomastia. Because being in any way thought to be woman like, for a man or boy, is of course the gravest of insults possible in the universe.

Women know this. They've been taught that from early childhood.

Medical personnel work from checklists all the time.

 

[Metaphor]

Arctish's line of thinking:

To the boy upset with being bullied about gynecomastia.
Don't be upset that you were teased about your breasts, boy. You being upset is your own moral failing. Being teased about having more female-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To the girl upset with being bullied about being hairy.
Don't be upset that you got bullied about your body hair. Being teased about having more male-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To any bullied person.
Stop hanging around with bullies. If you are bullied on the way to school, that's your fault. If you are bullied on the bus, that's your fault. If you are bullied at work, get a new job. It's all your fault.

Arctish, your attitude about bullying is so indescribably detestable I won't be responding to you any more in this thread, because you clearly have no idea how bullying and bullies work, nor have you any detectable empathy for the bullied whatsoever.

 

[Toni]

Arctish's line of thinking:

To the boy upset with being bullied about gynecomastia.
Don't be upset that you were teased about your breasts, boy. You being upset is your own moral failing. Being teased about having more female-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To the girl upset with being bullied about being hairy.
Don't be upset that you got bullied about your body hair. Being teased about having more male-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To any bullied person.
Stop hanging around with bullies. If you are bullied on the way to school, that's your fault. If you are bullied on the bus, that's your fault. If you are bullied at work, get a new job. It's all your fault.

Arctish, your attitude about bullying is so indescribably detestable I won't be responding to you any more in this thread, because you clearly have no idea how bullying and bullies work, nor have you any detectable empathy for the bullied whatsoever.

Misrepresenting other posters in this way makes you look very small and petty.

You really should stop it.

 

[Toni]

When I was a kid, one of my siblings told me I wasn't really much of a girl. After all, I liked a lot of 'boy' things. It was intended as a grave insult to me.

I just thought that my sibling was ignorant as interests were not gender specific. It was hurtful that they'd try to hurt me for no particular reason, though.

I'm just throwing that out there for all the boys posting here that think being associated with some feminine trait is a grave insult.

Sometimes girls do the same thing about being associated with some supposedly masculine trait.

 

[Arctish]

Arctish's line of thinking:

To the boy upset with being bullied about gynecomastia.
Don't be It's understandable you are upset that you were teased about your breasts, boy. No one likes it when people treat them badly. You being upset is your own moral failing. Being teased about having more female-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate think it's insulting and demeaning for a male to be like a female.

To the girl upset with being bullied about being hairy.

Don't be It's understandable you are upset that you got bullied about your body hair. No one likes it when people treat them badly. Being teased about having more male-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and think it's insulting and demeaning for a female to be like a male.

To any bullied person.
Stop Avoid hanging around with bullies. Don't buy into their bullshit. If you are bullied on the way to school, that's your fault. If you are bullied or on the bus, that's your fault. If you are bullied or at work, get a new job. It's all your fault
report it to whoever has authority in that situation, like the school Principal or your boss or the HR department. Also, seek out people who don't judge the worth of others based on their bodies because you can do a lot better than spend your time with sexist a-holes who would attack and harass people based on their looks or sex or gender conformity.

FIFY

Arctish, your attitude about bullying is so indescribably detestable I won't be responding to you any more in this thread, because you clearly have no idea how bullying and bullies work, nor have you any detectable empathy for the bullied whatsoever.

That's a nice high horse you've found.

Of course, our dispute isn't about the correct response to bullying, is it? It's about entrenched sexism, who wants to keep it, and who wants to get rid of it.

 

[Metaphor]

Arctish's line of thinking:

To the boy upset with being bullied about gynecomastia.
Don't be upset that you were teased about your breasts, boy. You being upset is your own moral failing. Being teased about having more female-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To the girl upset with being bullied about being hairy.
Don't be upset that you got bullied about your body hair. Being teased about having more male-typical characteristics is a sign that the people teasing you for it are sexist and hate women.

To any bullied person.
Stop hanging around with bullies. If you are bullied on the way to school, that's your fault. If you are bullied on the bus, that's your fault. If you are bullied at work, get a new job. It's all your fault.

Arctish, your attitude about bullying is so indescribably detestable I won't be responding to you any more in this thread, because you clearly have no idea how bullying and bullies work, nor have you any detectable empathy for the bullied whatsoever.

Misrepresenting other posters in this way makes you look very small and petty.

You really should stop it.

That is what Arctish expressed.

I've been the victim of bullying. I've been the victim of verbal taunts and physical violence. If an adult had responded to me with the unhuman and inhumane attitude Arctish displayed, that would have compounded the trauma.

 

[Arctish]

That is what Arctish expressed.

I've been the victim of bullying. I've been the victim of verbal taunts and physical violence. If an adult had responded to me with the unhuman and inhumane attitude Arctish displayed, that would have compounded the trauma.

It's understandable you are upset that you were bullied. No one likes it when people treat them badly. If you were bullied for being gay or having female-typical characteristics or mannerisms, that's a sign that the people bulling you were sexist and think it's insulting and demeaning for a male to be like a female. You don't have to agree with them. In fact, I encourage you to toss out that sexist bullshit wherever you find it and to seek out companionship among people who don't buy into it.

There's nothing wrong with having female-typical characteristics and mannerisms, or male-typical, or a mixture of both, or neither. Unfortunately, the entrenched sexism of many societies gives rise to bullying of that sort in order to keep the distinctions between genders and sexes clear cut and unchallenged. The good news is that Western societies like ours are moving away from that sort of bigoted sexist nonsense and becoming more and more welcoming to people who don't fit into the little social niches carved out by previous generations.

It's getting to the point nowadays that many (most?) people don't care what's in your pants or your chromosomes, they'll treat you the same as everyone else regardless. And that's a good thing.

 

[Jarhyn]

That is what Arctish expressed.

I've been the victim of bullying. I've been the victim of verbal taunts and physical violence. If an adult had responded to me with the unhuman and inhumane attitude Arctish displayed, that would have compounded the trauma.

It's understandable you are upset that you were bullied. No one likes it when people treat them badly. If you were bullied for being gay or having female-typical characteristics or mannerisms, that's a sign that the people bulling you were sexist and think it's insulting and demeaning for a male to be like a female. You don't have to agree with them. In fact, I encourage you to toss out that sexist bullshit wherever you find it and to seek out companionship among people who don't buy into it.

There's nothing wrong with having female-typical characteristics and mannerisms, or male-typical, or a mixture of both, or neither. Unfortunately, the entrenched sexism of many societies gives rise to bullying of that sort in order to keep the distinctions between genders and sexes clear cut and unchallenged. The good news is that Western societies like ours are moving away from that sort of bigoted sexist nonsense and becoming more and more welcoming to people who don't fit into the little social niches carved out by previous generations.

It's getting to the point nowadays that many (most?) people don't care what's in your pants or your chromosomes, they'll treat you the same as everyone else regardless. And that's a good thing.

Quite my point all for Tom and Emily's apparent inability to parse a simple string of words that amount to "I don't want to tell you what's in my pants on the basis that if I do, you will deny my perfectly reasonable requests for treatment in a particular way".

I WILL tell the tech I am not pregnant and may not become pregnant. I refuse to let them know whether I am "had a penis as a baby" or "had a vagina as a baby", nor to tell them any details about what it looks like these days.

I have a right to privacy as all folks do.

Not communicating "sex", and instead communicating the less explicit and more directly pertinent information -- rather than a rough proxy of that information that simultaneously reveals too much in some ways and too little -- is a benefit.

that some people would irrationally lean towards wanting the bad proxy is just their biases leaning towards "BuT We NeEd To KnOw So We CaN BuLlY FoLkS AbOuT It."

 

[Metaphor]

That is what Arctish expressed.

I've been the victim of bullying. I've been the victim of verbal taunts and physical violence. If an adult had responded to me with the unhuman and inhumane attitude Arctish displayed, that would have compounded the trauma.

It's understandable you are upset that you were bullied. No one likes it when people treat them badly. If you were bullied for being gay or having female-typical characteristics or mannerisms, that's a sign that the people bulling you were sexist and think it's insulting and demeaning for a male to be like a female. You don't have to agree with them. In fact, I encourage you to toss out that sexist bullshit wherever you find it and to seek out companionship among people who don't buy into it.

There's nothing wrong with having female-typical characteristics and mannerisms, or male-typical, or a mixture of both, or neither. Unfortunately, the entrenched sexism of many societies gives rise to bullying of that sort in order to keep the distinctions between genders and sexes clear cut and unchallenged. The good news is that Western societies like ours are moving away from that sort of bigoted sexist nonsense and becoming more and more welcoming to people who don't fit into the little social niches carved out by previous generations.

It's getting to the point nowadays that many (most?) people don't care what's in your pants or your chromosomes, they'll treat you the same as everyone else regardless. And that's a good thing.

Quite my point all for Tom and Emily's apparent inability to parse a simple string of words that amount to "I don't want to tell you what's in my pants on the basis that if I do, you will deny my perfectly reasonable requests for treatment in a particular way".

I WILL tell the tech I am not pregnant and may not become pregnant. I refuse to let them know whether I am "had a penis as a baby" or "had a vagina as a baby", nor to tell them any details about what it looks like these days.

I have a right to privacy as all folks do.

Not communicating "sex", and instead communicating the less explicit and more directly pertinent information -- rather than a rough proxy of that information that simultaneously reveals too much in some ways and too little -- is a benefit.

that some people would irrationally lean towards wanting the bad proxy is just their biases leaning towards "BuT We NeEd To KnOw So We CaN BuLlY FoLkS AbOuT It."

All hospitals record the sex of their patients. What bullies!