Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Loren Pechtel]

Not random, but they are a stranger.

The last person to photograph my innards had zero need to know what genitals I have nor would what she was doing have revealed them. Now, I don't care if she knew but some people would care. IIRC she didn't even ask--just the standard birthdate and name bit. I would have gotten the lead blanket in either case.

What are you basing this assumption on? What part of your innards was being imaged? Because I would bet that knowing how your internal organs are organized is meaningful to the person taking and interpreting the image. If you're a male and there's a fist sized unexpected thing mixed in with your intestines and bladder, that's a big fucking problem and people are going to be rightfully concerned. If you're female, though, that's completely expected because THAT'S WHERE THE FUCKING UTERUS GOES.

FFS people, Women are not just Men with different plug and play parts! We're actually arranged differently! Our abdominal organs are in slightly different places, with different types of attachments! Or pelvises are different! Our femurs join our hips at a different angle!

I'm not that long--there are no reproductive organs near my knee.

 

[laughing dog]

How do you know the hospital asked all females? How do you know the hospital never asked males? What did the hospital do when intersex individuals were about to undergo one of the procedures the law was referring to?

Your arguments are based on the assumption that females were never overlooked, males were never incorrectly identified, and that it's so insulting to males to be treated exactly the same as females that hospital policies must always differentiate between the sexes even when it's more efficient to just ask everyone the same set of questions.

Have you never been to a fucking hospital in your fucking life? Seriously? This is getting absurd!

Every single time I have gone to the doctor, there has been a form to fill out, and every single one of those forms has asked my sex. My medical records contain my sex. When I went to the hospital unconscious, the EMTs in the ambulance did a goddamned blood test, and then TOLD the ER docs that I was female and not pregnant!

This pretense that sex is a mystery that nobody can tell, nobody checks... and also is totally irrelevant unless you're trying to have sex is completely irrationally idiotic!

In my health care facilities, I am asked my name and my birth date by everyone who is supposed to see me at that appointment. It is called insuring no mistakes. Even those who know me by sight. In my view, asking about pregnancy falls into that same category of effort.

It is not a big deal for anyone. If a healthcare facility wishes to be that careful, why should anyone give a flying fuck about it?

ASK FOR SEX

Do you read what you write? Asking for sex might be interpreted as a proposition.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

other is that sick patients do not always answer accurately. I've had people I knew were intelligent answer questions quite incorrectly because they were very ill or exhausted or worried or stressed out.

Also, hospitals sometimes mess up.

I remember a story a surgery that went terribly wrong.
A patient needed much of one foot removed. I think it was because of diabetes. Unfortunately, the surgeon was in a bit of a hurry. Didn't double check everything.
Surgeon not only removed the whole foot, IT WAS THE WRONG FOOT. It was a different patient or something.

Bottom line, to me, is have strict protocols and consistent policies. That might seem burdensome to folks who think that they already know everything about sex and gender, but I don't care much.
Tom

This. They marked which side on my wife last year despite the fact that they weren't using general anesthesia in the first place and she would without question know which side they were working on before they actually did anything. It's about multiple layers of defense!

 

[Metaphor]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

 

[Metaphor]

1) You're assuming the patient knows that sex is relevant to the situation.

A patient doesn't have to know. They just have to provide details like their date of birth and sex.

But if trans advocates continue to cloud and poison the discourse, there may in fact be some trans people so ignorant that they think a 'sex' field is asking about their gender. Any such mistakes will be entirely on the heads of trans advocates and their co-conspirators.

 

[Metaphor]

There are no four sided triangles.

Why did you provide a picture of several three-sided triangles? I know what a triangle is already.

Some men might feel very sensitive about being mistaken for women. You've given the impression that you simply do not care about the feelings of men, but I do. A man being asked if he could be pregnant could be read to mean the person asking that question thinks he looks like a woman. It could also be read to mean the person asking the question isn't paying attention to their job.

The safe alternative is to ask the question of everyone. There could be some issues while switching, but people will in time understand and not be sensitive.

There was already a safe alternative that was jettisoned for political reasons.

 

[TomC]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

Hospitals don't know a dang thing about anything.

Hospital staff is comprised of humans. Fallible humans, who really ought to check and recheck everything, even if it seems obvious. Assuming that you know everything important is a good way to create gigantic problems that could have been avoided.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

1) You're assuming the patient knows that sex is relevant to the situation.

Any adult patient who doesn't understand that sex is relevant in almost all medical situations needs to go back to high school. Any patient that gives a FALSE ANSWER when they are asked for their sex is a flat out idiot.

2) I've already pointed out my SIL that has been thought male many times. I'm sure she's lesbian but in the closet even from herself.

And is your sister in law in the habit of telling people that she is male? No? Then I would suggest that her filling out the fucking medical form with her sex as female, and verifying that when the doctor asks really ought to be sufficient.

 

[Emily Lake]

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

To be fair, the US is pretty backwards on this. Medical data isn't shared between hospitals unless the patient allows it. It's beyond dumb that we don't have a universal medical repository... but there you go. NHS does have universal records, so this "ask men if they might be pregnant" really is just pandering.

Either way, if you're conscious you're going to fill out a form with your sex. If you're unconscious there's a high likelihood they'll test and type you before doing anything beyond stabilization.

 

[TomC]

Any adult patient who doesn't understand that sex is relevant in almost all medical situations needs to go back to high school.

This is the problem you and I have having right now. We usually agree on almost everything here, but not this one.

Assuming that every patient who appears to be something, whether sexed or competent or whatever, is not a good assumption. Usually it is, but that's not good enough for what medical technicians are doing.
Check.
Double check.
Triple check.
Ask apparently unnecessary questions. Look for problems.

The human race isn't as simple as it might seem. Make sure you know what you're doing before doing it.
Tom

 

[Toni]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

My medical professionals also gave my name and date of birth on file—right at the top! Along with my patient ID, insurance information, height and weight.

Yet at every single appointment, every single person I see asks my name and date of birth. Someone will check my height and weight each time and verify my insurance, address and phone number.

 

[Arctish]

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

This is entirely disingenuous. Unless you think all transpeople are complete morons, maybe? Or that nurses are absolute dolts? Or you've bought into the absurd argument that nobody can ever tell anybody's sex without investigating their nethers?

For 99% of people, their sex is readily apparent from their faces alone. Even the butchiest lesbian is still going to clock as a woman, because humans are *wired* to identify sex. Sure, some very few people are going to fall in that 1%. And if so, it is on them to inform the doctor what their sex is.

I am part of the generation that first embraced blue jeans ans short haircuts for women. I was frequently mistaken for a guy. I wasn't a big deal.

I had a friend with a slender frame and beautiful shoulder length platinum blonde hair. He was frequently mistaken for a gal. It only became a big deal when the guys trying to catch his eye were being particularly obnoxious and harassing him.

I really don't see why having questions about pregnancy on the pre-treatment questionnaires is such a big deal. We ask people if they have asthma, tuberculosis, heart disease, fungal infections, compromised immune systems, etc. What's the freaking big deal about asking if they might be pregnant? Do we really need blue for boys and pink for girls on a freaking medical form? Are we so wedded to sexism we can't just have one single form for everyone?

 

[Metaphor]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

My medical professionals also gave my name and date of birth on file—right at the top! Along with my patient ID, insurance information, height and weight.

Yet at every single appointment, every single person I see asks my name and date of birth. Someone will check my height and weight each time and verify my insurance, address and phone number.

Yes, no problem. What has that to do with asking males if they're pregnant?

 

[Metaphor]

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

This is entirely disingenuous. Unless you think all transpeople are complete morons, maybe? Or that nurses are absolute dolts? Or you've bought into the absurd argument that nobody can ever tell anybody's sex without investigating their nethers?

For 99% of people, their sex is readily apparent from their faces alone. Even the butchiest lesbian is still going to clock as a woman, because humans are *wired* to identify sex. Sure, some very few people are going to fall in that 1%. And if so, it is on them to inform the doctor what their sex is.

I am part of the generation that first embraced blue jeans ans short haircuts for women. I was frequently mistaken for a guy. I wasn't a big deal.

I had a friend with a slender frame and beautiful shoulder length platinum blonde hair. He was frequently mistaken for a gal. It only became a big deal when the guys trying to catch his eye were being particularly obnoxious and harassing him.

I really don't see why having questions about pregnancy on the pre-treatment questionnaires is such a big deal. We ask people if they have asthma, tuberculosis, heart disease, fungal infections, compromised immune systems, etc. What's the freaking big deal about asking if they might be pregnant? Do we really need blue for boys and pink for girls on a freaking medical form? Are we so wedded to sexism we can't just have one single form for everyone?

It's not a pre-treatment questionnaire. Stop peddling this falsehood.

 

[Toni]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

My medical professionals also gave my name and date of birth on file—right at the top! Along with my patient ID, insurance information, height and weight.

Yet at every single appointment, every single person I see asks my name and date of birth. Someone will check my height and weight each time and verify my insurance, address and phone number.

Yes, no problem. What has that to do with asking males if they're pregnant?

The argument has been made that there is no need to ask for obvious information. Obviously, medical professionals disagree: they confirm information over abs over, even if they have just heard such confirmation given moments before.

They ask because they wish to confirm what is obvious—in case there is something else going on.

These are rote questions, asked if every patient capable of answering.

Just as I am routinely asked if I could be or am planning to be pregnant.

 

[Metaphor]

ASK FOR SEX

That should also not be a big deal. And if a person's sex is female, ask about pregnancy. That should also not be a big deal.

But males CANNOT get pregnant, and engaging in this pretense is a betrayal of rationality and objectivity.

What is bizarre to me is that there is no way in the universe that hospitals, not even hospitals that have already been institutionally captured, have not already obtained the sex of the patient.

Loren and others appear to think hospitals do not have a patient's details on file. Your name and date of birth and sex are on file. Your medical history is on file.

Hospitals already have your sex on file. If it's your first visit to a hospital, and that hospital is from the 19th century and has no contact with any other hospital ever, they'll ask for your details, including your sex.

My medical professionals also gave my name and date of birth on file—right at the top! Along with my patient ID, insurance information, height and weight.

Yet at every single appointment, every single person I see asks my name and date of birth. Someone will check my height and weight each time and verify my insurance, address and phone number.

Yes, no problem. What has that to do with asking males if they're pregnant?

The argument has been made that there is no need to ask for obvious information.

No, that is a falsehood. Nobody said people should not be asked 'obvious' information. I am asked to confirm my name and date of birth and what I'm there for every single time I get blood drawn.

But people should not be asked to affirm or deny the literally, definitionally impossible. Impossible things have never happened. To ask males if they are or could be pregnant is a political decision, not a medical decision.

Doctor: Are you parents living?
Patient: No, they both died a number of years ago.
Doctor: Could they become living again?
Patient: ....no.

 

[Arctish]

It says the reason is because the Government removed the word "female" from the law governing some medical procedures and replaced it with "individuals", changing those who should be questioned from "females of childbearing age" to "individuals of childbearing potential", leading some hospital trusts to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that they should ask individuals seeking those medical procedures if they are or might be pregnant.

Have you stepped back and asked yourself whether or not that removal of the word "female" makes any sense whatsoever? Why would the government do it? What purpose would it serve? Does it make healthcare better for the majority of people? Or does it assuage a political lobby?

I have.

I think the change from 'females' to 'individuals' does no harm and is, in fact, beneficial to individuals and society at large.

I think it's true that some men would be greatly insulted if they were asked if they were pregnant. I think some men would find it demeaning. I think that feeling is the result of sexist thinking that routinely demeans women.

There's nothing wrong with being a 'receiver', or a 'bottom', or the person who is penetrated during sex, or the one who can get pregnant and/or lactate. I think some men need to get over their overreaction to being treated the same as women, including being asked if they might be pregnant. Seriously, how hard is it to remain calm and say "no"?

 

[Arctish]

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

This is entirely disingenuous. Unless you think all transpeople are complete morons, maybe? Or that nurses are absolute dolts? Or you've bought into the absurd argument that nobody can ever tell anybody's sex without investigating their nethers?

For 99% of people, their sex is readily apparent from their faces alone. Even the butchiest lesbian is still going to clock as a woman, because humans are *wired* to identify sex. Sure, some very few people are going to fall in that 1%. And if so, it is on them to inform the doctor what their sex is.

I am part of the generation that first embraced blue jeans ans short haircuts for women. I was frequently mistaken for a guy. I wasn't a big deal.

I had a friend with a slender frame and beautiful shoulder length platinum blonde hair. He was frequently mistaken for a gal. It only became a big deal when the guys trying to catch his eye were being particularly obnoxious and harassing him.

I really don't see why having questions about pregnancy on the pre-treatment questionnaires is such a big deal. We ask people if they have asthma, tuberculosis, heart disease, fungal infections, compromised immune systems, etc. What's the freaking big deal about asking if they might be pregnant? Do we really need blue for boys and pink for girls on a freaking medical form? Are we so wedded to sexism we can't just have one single form for everyone?

It's not a pre-treatment questionnaire. Stop peddling this falsehood.

So you think these are just off-the-cuff questions being asked? That the person doing the asking isn't checking off items on a checklist or filling in blanks on a form?

Or are you just being particularly pedantic about what constitutes a "questionnaire"?

 

[Metaphor]

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

This is entirely disingenuous. Unless you think all transpeople are complete morons, maybe? Or that nurses are absolute dolts? Or you've bought into the absurd argument that nobody can ever tell anybody's sex without investigating their nethers?

For 99% of people, their sex is readily apparent from their faces alone. Even the butchiest lesbian is still going to clock as a woman, because humans are *wired* to identify sex. Sure, some very few people are going to fall in that 1%. And if so, it is on them to inform the doctor what their sex is.

I am part of the generation that first embraced blue jeans ans short haircuts for women. I was frequently mistaken for a guy. I wasn't a big deal.

I had a friend with a slender frame and beautiful shoulder length platinum blonde hair. He was frequently mistaken for a gal. It only became a big deal when the guys trying to catch his eye were being particularly obnoxious and harassing him.

I really don't see why having questions about pregnancy on the pre-treatment questionnaires is such a big deal. We ask people if they have asthma, tuberculosis, heart disease, fungal infections, compromised immune systems, etc. What's the freaking big deal about asking if they might be pregnant? Do we really need blue for boys and pink for girls on a freaking medical form? Are we so wedded to sexism we can't just have one single form for everyone?

It's not a pre-treatment questionnaire. Stop peddling this falsehood.

So you think these are just off-the-cuff questions being asked? That the person doing the asking isn't checking off items on a checklist or filling in blanks on a form?

Or are you just being particularly pedantic about what constitutes a "questionnaire"?

It is not a paper form which is given to a patient for them to fill out. In those cases, there's no flexibility in tailoring the form - each patients would get a standard 'imaging' form that likely has at least some questions that are not relevant.

It is a change to the verbal questions given to imaging patients. The person asking the questions already has details about the patient that are relevant to the questions asked, such as the patient's sex.

 

[Metaphor]

I think it's true that some men would be greatly insulted if they were asked if they were pregnant. I think some men would find it demeaning. I think that feeling is the result of sexist thinking that routinely demeans women.

So, when young boys or men are teased about gynecomastia, your advice would be 'you being upset about this is a sign that you have sexist thinking that demeans women'?