Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Arctish]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Hayley Haynes has the XY chromosome pairing of a male and no gonads. Was she a male or a female before the hormone treatments?

Or do you think she was sexless?

That's an interesting story.

Hayley Haynes, Woman Born Without A 'Womb,' Gives Birth To Twin Girls Via Hormone Therapy

A woman born with genes of a man gives birth to twin girls after a successful IVF treatment.

www.medicaldaily.com

But she apparently did have a womb and ovaries.

Other articles about Ms. Haynes say she and her husband used an egg donor's ovum because she doesn't have gonads. I'll have to do more research on that.

Anyway, she had some sort of millimeters wide internal structure that developed into a functional uterus after prolonged targeted hormone treatments. I have no idea if that's common among males with androgen insensitivity (or males in general, for that matter), or if it was an extremely rare condition. All her other attributes we use to assign sex were either male or absent.

 

[TomC]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Here's what I see as "cut to the chase".

Technicians about to perform a process ask every patient a list of salient questions. The same list for all of them. Regardless of what the paper says or however the patient presents as a sex.

Technicians ask everyone the same list of questions salient to the process right before the procedure is done. Everyone. Right before.

Just cut to the chase. "Could you possibly be pregnant?" Yes or No.
That's cutting to the chase.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Hayley Haynes has the XY chromosome pairing of a male and no gonads. Was she a male or a female before the hormone treatments?

Or do you think she was sexless?

The link to the Haynes story is not detailed enough to understand if Haynes had 'no gonads'. The story says she had a 'tiny womb' and

The couple successfully conceived after using Sam’s sperm and harvesting 13 eggs, two of which were viable.

If they were Haynes' eggs, then Haynes must have had the ovaries to produce them.

But the Haynes' edge case is irrelevant, just as parading female-passing trans women as a 'test' is irrelevant, just as two women in all of human history conceiving naturally over age 60 is irrelevant. Policy is not formed on edge cases and in Haynes' particular case, it's certain the sex marker would have been 'F' on documents anyway. And if it was 'X' or 'it's complicated', then the imaging policy should assume 'F'.

 

[Arctish]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Hayley Haynes has the XY chromosome pairing of a male and no gonads. Was she a male or a female before the hormone treatments?

Or do you think she was sexless?

The link to the Haynes story is not detailed enough to understand if Haynes had 'no gonads'. The story says she had a 'tiny womb' and

The couple successfully conceived after using Sam’s sperm and harvesting 13 eggs, two of which were viable.

If they were Haynes' eggs, then Haynes must have had the ovaries to produce them.

But the Haynes' edge case is irrelevant, just as parading female-passing trans women as a 'test' is irrelevant, just as two women in all of human history conceiving naturally over age 60 is irrelevant. Policy is not formed on edge cases and in Haynes' particular case, it's certain the sex marker would have been 'F' on documents anyway. And if it was 'X' or 'it's complicated', then the imaging policy should assume 'F'.

I thought you might have remembered our discussion last month.

I will look around for more information. Perhaps Ms. Haynes has ovaries, or Ovotesticular disorder, or some other characteristic that made it possible for her to produce ovum. The articles I read at the time said she lacked gonads and used donor eggs to become pregnant.

Anyway, I agree that policy isn't (usually) formed around edge cases. It's formed around people's understanding of the world and whatever social conventions are practiced in their societies. Old policies are frequently updated to incorporate new information and reflect social change.

Society is changing and some people don't like it. But honestly, sexism aside, what's the problem with a hospital having one set of questions for all patients to answer before radiology treatments? Is it really just that some folks would feel insulted if they weren't separated from those 'others' with different body parts?

 

[Arctish]

For those interested in learning about Hayley Haynes, this article says she has Swyer's syndrome and that

The only factor persistent in all patients of Swyer’s syndrome is the absence of ovaries.

Dr. Rao might not know all about Ms. Haynes diagnosis and treatment but she probably knows at least as much as the tabloids. And since most of the tabloids say Ms. Haynes and her husband used an egg donor to conceive, I think we can accept it as true for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[TSwizzle]

I have no idea why asking every patient the same set of questions is so controversial.

You’re upset because not everyone will acquiesce to the bullshit that this is about not doing harm to a not possibly pregnant male and his non existent fetus.

 

[Arctish]

I have no idea why asking every patient the same set of questions is so controversial.

You’re upset because not everyone will acquiesce to the bullshit that this is about not doing harm to a not possibly pregnant male and his non existent fetus.

I'm not.

 

[Emily Lake]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Hayley Haynes has the XY chromosome pairing of a male and no gonads. Was she a male or a female before the hormone treatments?

Or do you think she was sexless?

Given that Hayley Haynes had a uterus and birthed a child, Haynes is female.

It's a diversionary tactic though - what would make you class Haynes as male in the first place? Just the chromosomes? If so, it might be a bit more reasonable of you to review my actual position on what distinguishes the two sexes than to substitute your own strawman for it.

 

[Emily Lake]

I agree that males who have no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant.

Let's cut to the chase: What characteristics is it *possible* for a male to have that would allow them to get pregnant? And if they have those characteristics... what makes them male?

Hayley Haynes has the XY chromosome pairing of a male and no gonads. Was she a male or a female before the hormone treatments?

Or do you think she was sexless?

That's an interesting story.

Hayley Haynes, Woman Born Without A 'Womb,' Gives Birth To Twin Girls Via Hormone Therapy

A woman born with genes of a man gives birth to twin girls after a successful IVF treatment.

www.medicaldaily.com

But she apparently did have a womb and ovaries.

Other articles about Ms. Haynes say she and her husband used an egg donor's ovum because she doesn't have gonads. I'll have to do more research on that.

Anyway, she had some sort of millimeters wide internal structure that developed into a functional uterus after prolonged targeted hormone treatments. I have no idea if that's common among males with androgen insensitivity (or males in general, for that matter), or if it was an extremely rare condition. All her other attributes we use to assign sex were either male or absent.

Hayne's anatomy was not arranged around the production of sperm. At no point did she ever have male reproductive anatomy of any sort. She lacked ovaries, but still had a very small uterus as well as a vaginal canal, and otherwise phenotypical female characteristics.

Given that her anatomy was arranged around the production of ova - even though incomplete - Haynes would be classed as a female by any biologist worth their salt.

 

[Emily Lake]

Here's what I see as "cut to the chase".

Technicians about to perform a process ask every patient a list of salient questions. The same list for all of them. Regardless of what the paper says or however the patient presents as a sex.

Technicians ask everyone the same list of questions salient to the process right before the procedure is done. Everyone. Right before.

Just cut to the chase. "Could you possibly be pregnant?" Yes or No.
That's cutting to the chase.
Tom

So when I, as an aging woman, go in for my colonoscopy... despite me having told them I'm a female... you think it "makes sense" for them to ask whether I might have an enlarged prostate?

 

[Emily Lake]

For those interested in learning about Hayley Haynes, this article says she has Swyer's syndrome and that

The only factor persistent in all patients of Swyer’s syndrome is the absence of ovaries.

Dr. Rao might not know all about Ms. Haynes diagnosis and treatment but she probably knows at least as much as the tabloids. And since most of the tabloids say Ms. Haynes and her husband used an egg donor to conceive, I think we can accept it as true for the purposes of this discussion.

Girls with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes.

Girls with Swyer syndrome lack sex glands (ovaries). Instead of sex glands, women with Swyer syndrome have “gonadal streaks”, in which the ovaries do not develop properly (aplasia) and are replaced by functionless scar (fibrous) tissue. Because they lack ovaries, girls with Swyer syndrome do not produce sex hormones and will not undergo puberty (unless treated with hormone replacement therapy).

Swyer Syndrome makes Haynes female.

 

[TomC]

So when I, as an aging woman, go in for my colonoscopy... despite me having told them I'm a female... you think it "makes sense" for them to ask whether I might have an enlarged prostate?

Yes.

It would be like asking me, tall broad shouldered human with a beard, "Could you be pregnant?".

I know I can't. But I don't want technicians assuming things. Just ask the salient questions and get it over with. Ask the whole check list of Y/N questions of everybody, no matter what, and get on with it.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

So when I, as an aging woman, go in for my colonoscopy... despite me having told them I'm a female... you think it "makes sense" for them to ask whether I might have an enlarged prostate?

Yes.

It would be like asking me, tall broad shouldered human with a beard, "Could you be pregnant?".

Yes, it would be like that. Completely ridiculous.

 

[Emily Lake]

So when I, as an aging woman, go in for my colonoscopy... despite me having told them I'm a female... you think it "makes sense" for them to ask whether I might have an enlarged prostate?

Yes.

It would be like asking me, tall broad shouldered human with a beard, "Could you be pregnant?".

I know I can't. But I don't want technicians assuming things. Just ask the salient questions and get it over with. Ask the whole check list of Y/N questions of everybody, no matter what, and get on with it.
Tom

I feel like you maybe skipped a part of that.

 

[Gun Nut]

People give very stupid answers to seemingly straightforward questions all the time. This is why you should never talk to the police when they are investigating you. This is why the "telephone game" is a thing. This is why when it comes to critically important pieces of life-or-death information, there is no such thing as "too careful"... and if the reason for preferring there to be even the slightest chance of a misunderstanding in these particular circumstances is "the question is icky", then I apologize in advance for thinking you are a fucking moron that deserves to lose your fetus, or die of prostate cancer - Congratulations on your Darwin award.
You wish to put your life at risk to avoid answering a question (that maybe just makes you feel unmanly) so that some fresh-out-of-school nurses assistant can just make assumptions based upon who the hell knows what (they never looked or listened to you and are looking at the wrong chart)... Then you're prolly gonna die soon - you are already on borrowed time.
It's like these people never asked the question "are you sure?" to anyone ever. WHY would you ask such a STUPID question? They said it, didn't they - so why have you ever asked that?

 

[Emily Lake]

People give very stupid answers to seemingly straightforward questions all the time. This is why you should never talk to the police when they are investigating you. This is why the "telephone game" is a thing. This is why when it comes to critically important pieces of life-or-death information, there is no such thing as "too careful"... and if the reason for preferring there to be even the slightest chance of a misunderstanding in these particular circumstances is "the question is icky", then I apologize in advance for thinking you are a fucking moron that deserves to lose your fetus, or die of prostate cancer - Congratulations on your Darwin award.
You wish to put your life at risk to avoid answering a question (that maybe just makes you feel unmanly) so that some fresh-out-of-school nurses assistant can just make assumptions based upon who the hell knows what (they never looked or listened to you and are looking at the wrong chart)... Then you're prolly gonna die soon - you are already on borrowed time.
It's like these people never asked the question "are you sure?" to anyone ever. WHY would you ask such a STUPID question? They said it, didn't they - so why have you ever asked that?

Just so we're clear... nobody in this thread has suggested that nursing assistants "just make assumptions". Nor has anybody suggested that asking questions is a bad idea. Nor has anyone in any way suggested it's because the question makes people feel "icky".

What has been suggested is that nurses/doctors/etc. should verify a persons SEX. And then they should ask questions that are relevant to that SEX. Because it is asinine for a doctor to ask a female patient about her prostate, and it's asinine for a doctor to ask a male patient if he might be pregnant.

Do you know why males are being asked whether they might be pregnant? It's because some group of people think it's "icky" to acknowledge that SEX is relevant in a medical setting, and they think their gender identity is sacrosanct. So much so, that having to admit to a doctor that they are a female rather than a "man" is hurtful to them, and it damages their mental health.

So to recap... You're defending the people who want to pretend that their gender identity is more real and more impactful in a medical setting than their sex... while denigrating the people who understand that sex is vitally important in medicine.

The world has become very strange.

 

[Arctish]

People give very stupid answers to seemingly straightforward questions all the time. This is why you should never talk to the police when they are investigating you. This is why the "telephone game" is a thing. This is why when it comes to critically important pieces of life-or-death information, there is no such thing as "too careful"... and if the reason for preferring there to be even the slightest chance of a misunderstanding in these particular circumstances is "the question is icky", then I apologize in advance for thinking you are a fucking moron that deserves to lose your fetus, or die of prostate cancer - Congratulations on your Darwin award.
You wish to put your life at risk to avoid answering a question (that maybe just makes you feel unmanly) so that some fresh-out-of-school nurses assistant can just make assumptions based upon who the hell knows what (they never looked or listened to you and are looking at the wrong chart)... Then you're prolly gonna die soon - you are already on borrowed time.
It's like these people never asked the question "are you sure?" to anyone ever. WHY would you ask such a STUPID question? They said it, didn't they - so why have you ever asked that?

Just so we're clear... nobody in this thread has suggested that nursing assistants "just make assumptions". Nor has anybody suggested that asking questions is a bad idea. Nor has anyone in any way suggested it's because the question makes people feel "icky".

What has been suggested is that nurses/doctors/etc. should verify a persons SEX. And then they should ask questions that are relevant to that SEX. Because it is asinine for a doctor to ask a female patient about her prostate, and it's asinine for a doctor to ask a male patient if he might be pregnant.

Do you know why males are being asked whether they might be pregnant? It's because some group of people think it's "icky" to acknowledge that SEX is relevant in a medical setting, and they think their gender identity is sacrosanct. So much so, that having to admit to a doctor that they are a female rather than a "man" is hurtful to them, and it damages their mental health.

So to recap... You're defending the people who want to pretend that their gender identity is more real and more impactful in a medical setting than their sex... while denigrating the people who understand that sex is vitally important in medicine.

The world has become very strange.

Just so we're clear... people in this thread have said, and others have shown, that they believe it is insulting, demeaning, and asinine to ask everyone the same questions prior to treatment, regardless of their age or declared sex.

Other people in this thread find it an efficient and sensible policy that serves to minimize the chances that something important might be overlooked before potentially harmful treatment is begun. Also, that it's common to be asked all sorts of questions in a medical setting, many of which do not apply to the person being asked.

And it has become manifestly clear that the objections are based on sexism and perceptions of masculinity and femininity, and have nothing to do with good medical practices. Argument from "OMG I can't believe the med tech asked me that!" isn't much of an argument.

 

[Rhea]

What has been suggested is that nurses/doctors/etc. should verify a persons SEX. And then they should ask questions that are relevant to that SEX. Because it is asinine for a doctor to ask a female patient about her prostate, and it's asinine for a doctor to ask a male patient if he might be pregnant.

So you are advocating, to avoid “asinine” questions, that hospitals keep two sets of documents, and ask extra questions just to determine which of the two documents should be used.

Seems fraught with error.

 

[Jarhyn]

Here's what I see as "cut to the chase".

Technicians about to perform a process ask every patient a list of salient questions. The same list for all of them. Regardless of what the paper says or however the patient presents as a sex.

Technicians ask everyone the same list of questions salient to the process right before the procedure is done. Everyone. Right before.

Just cut to the chase. "Could you possibly be pregnant?" Yes or No.
That's cutting to the chase.
Tom

So when I, as an aging woman, go in for my colonoscopy... despite me having told them I'm a female... you think it "makes sense" for them to ask whether I might have an enlarged prostate?

Yep. It makes sense. Because they know far better than you apparently that someone who looks like you can still have been born with a fucking prostate, and that such can still be enlarged, and the person you told you were "a female" could have heard wrong, written it down wrong, or could have handed the wrong chart off, and it doesn't tell them any private information about you to be asked and answer "no".

 

[Gun Nut]

People give very stupid answers to seemingly straightforward questions all the time. This is why you should never talk to the police when they are investigating you. This is why the "telephone game" is a thing. This is why when it comes to critically important pieces of life-or-death information, there is no such thing as "too careful"... and if the reason for preferring there to be even the slightest chance of a misunderstanding in these particular circumstances is "the question is icky", then I apologize in advance for thinking you are a fucking moron that deserves to lose your fetus, or die of prostate cancer - Congratulations on your Darwin award.
You wish to put your life at risk to avoid answering a question (that maybe just makes you feel unmanly) so that some fresh-out-of-school nurses assistant can just make assumptions based upon who the hell knows what (they never looked or listened to you and are looking at the wrong chart)... Then you're prolly gonna die soon - you are already on borrowed time.
It's like these people never asked the question "are you sure?" to anyone ever. WHY would you ask such a STUPID question? They said it, didn't they - so why have you ever asked that?

Just so we're clear... nobody in this thread has suggested that nursing assistants "just make assumptions". Nor has anybody suggested that asking questions is a bad idea. Nor has anyone in any way suggested it's because the question makes people feel "icky".

What has been suggested is that nurses/doctors/etc. should verify a persons SEX. And then they should ask questions that are relevant to that SEX. Because it is asinine for a doctor to ask a female patient about her prostate, and it's asinine for a doctor to ask a male patient if he might be pregnant.

Do you know why males are being asked whether they might be pregnant? It's because some group of people think it's "icky" to acknowledge that SEX is relevant in a medical setting, and they think their gender identity is sacrosanct. So much so, that having to admit to a doctor that they are a female rather than a "man" is hurtful to them, and it damages their mental health.

So to recap... You're defending the people who want to pretend that their gender identity is more real and more impactful in a medical setting than their sex... while denigrating the people who understand that sex is vitally important in medicine.

The world has become very strange.

Is it opposite day? Cause' you got that precisely backwards.