Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Toni]

I swear some people aren't reading. The question about sex is NOT as straightforward for ALL people as you seem to believe. A trans individual may identify as their new gender and simply not even consider that at one time they had a uterus and ovaries. OR they may still retain a uterus or ovaries. A trans woman may identify herself as female.

And that right there is the core of the issue.

At one point in time we were told very clearly that sex and gender were completely different things. It was a cornerstone of the transgender rights approach.

Now, however, we're back to conflating sex and gender... only NOW we're setting personal, subjective, unverifiable gender identity as more paramount than sex.

Which means we're now living in a world where several people think it's a good idea to just skip right over sex in medical scenarios, despite the fact that it is an incredibly vital piece of information for doctors to have... and instead, ask everybody, even males, if they might be pregnant.

And why? Because some people might give a false answer, or might actually believe that their gender identity has changed their sex, or their feelings might be hurt by someone wanting to know their sex. So now... everyone else has to be asked a question that is completely irrelevant to half the population, and forego a piece of information that is relevant to nearly every single patient all the time... in order to avoid educating a tiny sliver of the populus about the importance of telling the doctor their actual sex.

Yes, exactly. I have experienced a homosexual female (former) friend actually say that someone was a "bad person" for acknowledging that biological sex has ANY relevance besides being a "primitive social construct". I hope she never gets breast cancer... cause that one hell-of-a murderous social construct.

Men also get breast cancer, albeit more rarely than do women. It’s actually a problem as few men think to do a self exam or mention a bump to their doc.

 

[Gun Nut]

I get it that some men don't want to be asked that question.

I get it that some very sexist men might feel insulted and demeaned if they are asked that question.

While we're at it, let's ask everyone, including females, whether they might have an enlarged prostate. Let's ask everyone, including males, whether they might have fibroids, endometriosis, or ovarian cysts. Let's ask everyone, including females, if they have difficulty maintaining an erection. Let's ask everyone, including males, when their last mammogram was

I mean, we wouldn't want to miss anyone right? So let's just ask everyone everything, just in case. That makes perfect sense. Certainly it's waaaaay more sensible than asking a patient their sex, and then asking only those questions that are relevant to that sex, right?

YES!

Let's ask everyone the same questions about conditions that can affect treatment or bring about harmful results.

Let's get over being offended when hospital staff don't presume to know our sex and reproductive capabilities and appreciate that we are being asked so that we can get the best care possible. Better safe than sorry, right? What exactly is the problem with that?

There are exactly 2 people on Earth I am aware of that have any problem with this in a medical context... and you have also met them both here. Out of the 7.9 billion people on Earth right now... I'm not to interested or concerned with

I swear some people aren't reading. The question about sex is NOT as straightforward for ALL people as you seem to believe. A trans individual may identify as their new gender and simply not even consider that at one time they had a uterus and ovaries. OR they may still retain a uterus or ovaries. A trans woman may identify herself as female.

And that right there is the core of the issue.

At one point in time we were told very clearly that sex and gender were completely different things. It was a cornerstone of the transgender rights approach.

Now, however, we're back to conflating sex and gender... only NOW we're setting personal, subjective, unverifiable gender identity as more paramount than sex.

Which means we're now living in a world where several people think it's a good idea to just skip right over sex in medical scenarios, despite the fact that it is an incredibly vital piece of information for doctors to have... and instead, ask everybody, even males, if they might be pregnant.

And why? Because some people might give a false answer, or might actually believe that their gender identity has changed their sex, or their feelings might be hurt by someone wanting to know their sex. So now... everyone else has to be asked a question that is completely irrelevant to half the population, and forego a piece of information that is relevant to nearly every single patient all the time... in order to avoid educating a tiny sliver of the populus about the importance of telling the doctor their actual sex.

Yes, exactly. I have experienced a homosexual female (former) friend actually say that someone was a "bad person" for acknowledging that biological sex has ANY relevance besides being a "primitive social construct". I hope she never gets breast cancer... cause that one hell-of-a murderous social construct.

Men also get breast cancer, albeit more rarely than do women. It’s actually a problem as few men think to do a self exam or mention a bump to their doc.

I realized that as I typed it, but decided it was too pedantic to change... I was wrong. OK, how about cervix cancer? that better?

 

[Arctish]

And because I feel sexism promotes and encourages stupidity, I frequently engage with others on this topic.

I really worry about the state of civilization when acknowledging that males cannot get pregnant is considered "sexism".

Believing that it is insulting and demeaning to men to be asked the exact same questions as women, including questions about the possibility of being pregnant, is sexist.

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I have explicitly agreed with you that males with no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant. But I disagree that presuming someone is male is sufficient reason to have separate sex-based pre-treatment checklists, when having a single set of questions reduces the chances of something important being overlooked. Frankly, I don't see a reason to fight to preserve the old policy except as a way to maintain traditional segregation by sex, i.e. sexism.

 

[TSwizzle]

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

It's an insult to one's intelligence and puts me on notice I'm dealing with morons.

 

[TomC]

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

It's an insult to one's intelligence and puts me on notice I'm dealing with morons.

As a male,
The premise that being asked the same exact questions as every other person getting an MRI is somehow an insult or something is the moronic part.

Technician asks, "Could you possibly be pregnant?".
I answer "No".
Right before the MRI procedure.

What's that, three seconds? On a slow day?

Maybe another three seconds if the technician has to explain, "It's a formality", to the socially impaired?

If some dude needs therapy after such an ordeal, he needed it beforehand. Maybe this is more like a wake-up call?
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

And because I feel sexism promotes and encourages stupidity, I frequently engage with others on this topic.

I really worry about the state of civilization when acknowledging that males cannot get pregnant is considered "sexism".

Believing that it is insulting and demeaning to men to be asked the exact same questions as women, including questions about the possibility of being pregnant, is sexist.

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I have explicitly agreed with you that males with no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant. But I disagree that presuming someone is male is sufficient reason to have separate sex-based pre-treatment checklists, when having a single set of questions reduces the chances of something important being overlooked. Frankly, I don't see a reason to fight to preserve the old policy except as a way to maintain traditional segregation by sex, i.e. sexism.

Once again, no presumption is in place.

Here's how your approach goes:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Male.
Doctor: Are you currently pregnant, or is it possible that you might be pregnant?
Patient:... Did I not just tell you I was male?
Doctor: Yes, but you shouldn't be offended at being asked the same questions as women.
Patient: But... I'm male. It's a stupid question.
Doctor: Well, clearly you're a sexist so there!

Let's extend that the other direction:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Female.
Doctor: Is it possible that you might have prostate cancer?
Patient: I don't have a prostate, did you even graduate medical school? Go find someone competent to treat me!

 

[Metaphor]

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

It's an insult to one's intelligence and puts me on notice I'm dealing with morons.

As a male,
The premise that being asked the same exact questions as every other person getting an MRI is somehow an insult or something is the moronic part.

Technician asks, "Could you possibly be pregnant?".
I answer "No".
Right before the MRI procedure.

What's that, three seconds? On a slow day?

Maybe another three seconds if the technician has to explain, "It's a formality", to the socially impaired?

If some dude needs therapy after such an ordeal, he needed it beforehand. Maybe this is more like a wake-up call?
Tom

I see the war in Europe hasn't caused a shortage of straw.

 

[Arctish]

And because I feel sexism promotes and encourages stupidity, I frequently engage with others on this topic.

I really worry about the state of civilization when acknowledging that males cannot get pregnant is considered "sexism".

Believing that it is insulting and demeaning to men to be asked the exact same questions as women, including questions about the possibility of being pregnant, is sexist.

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I have explicitly agreed with you that males with no female or intersex characteristics cannot get pregnant. But I disagree that presuming someone is male is sufficient reason to have separate sex-based pre-treatment checklists, when having a single set of questions reduces the chances of something important being overlooked. Frankly, I don't see a reason to fight to preserve the old policy except as a way to maintain traditional segregation by sex, i.e. sexism.

Once again, no presumption is in place.

Here's how your approach goes:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Male.
Doctor: Are you currently pregnant, or is it possible that you might be pregnant?
Patient:... Did I not just tell you I was male?
Doctor: Yes, but you shouldn't be offended at being asked the same questions as women.
Patient: But... I'm male. It's a stupid question.
Doctor: Well, clearly you're a sexist so there!

Let's extend that the other direction:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Female.
Doctor: Is it possible that you might have prostate cancer?
Patient: I don't have a prostate, did you even graduate medical school? Go find someone competent to treat me!

I'm sure Doctors have to deal with problem patients just as often as waitstaff have to deal with problem customers.

Some people like to kick up fuss over the tiniest of perceived slights.

 

[Rhea]

If there are females on this board that got an imaging procedure and were not asked if they were pregnant, please come forth and share your story.

I already did. You said they always knew if we were female. I have had multiple x rays and MRIs when no one asked me my sex.

That isn't the question I asked. I did not ask whether they asked you verbally about your sex. I asked if you had imaging done, as a female, and were not asked your pregnancy status.

You made mutiple points that the question should only be asked of females, which implies, necessarily, that ALL PEOPLE ARE ASKED IF THEY ARE FEMALE FIRST. Otherwise, they wuld not, of course, know.


Here are examples of your assumption, that all people are asked their sex.

Only females need to be asked if they are pregnant. Therefore, we should ask patients their natal sex (of course, this is the same as their current sex, because humans cannot change sex).

The previous policy restricted the question to be asked only of females. The previous policy made sense. This new policy does not make sense.

That's why nurses should ask all females if they might be pregnant, as was the policy before the policy was rewritten

You cannot claim that all females are asked if they are pregnant if you don’t first establish taht they are female - by either examining their genitals or asking them if they are female. And you explicitly claim that this should be done in the bold above…

… and I’m telling you, unequivocally, it is not done.

But you’re on a grievance outrage, so you’re going on and on and on about how terrible it is for a hospital to make sure they’ve identified all possibly pregnant people, because it fails to sufficiently mock the people you think should be institutionally mocked, and risk to pregnancies is just collateral damage.


This is just kind of disgusting at this point. I’m out.

 

[Metaphor]

If there are females on this board that got an imaging procedure and were not asked if they were pregnant, please come forth and share your story.

I already did. You said they always knew if we were female. I have had multiple x rays and MRIs when no one asked me my sex.

That isn't the question I asked. I did not ask whether they asked you verbally about your sex. I asked if you had imaging done, as a female, and were not asked your pregnancy status.

You made mutiple points that the question should only be asked of females, which implies, necessarily, that ALL PEOPLE ARE ASKED IF THEY ARE FEMALE FIRST. Otherwise, they wuld not, of course, know.

The hospital obtains people's sex - whether by asking on intake or by copying it from the referral. So some people may not be 'asked', verbally by the hospital, if they are female - but that would be because their female status is already recorded.

Here are examples of your assumption, that all people are asked their sex.

Only females need to be asked if they are pregnant. Therefore, we should ask patients their natal sex (of course, this is the same as their current sex, because humans cannot change sex).

The previous policy restricted the question to be asked only of females. The previous policy made sense. This new policy does not make sense.

That's why nurses should ask all females if they might be pregnant, as was the policy before the policy was rewritten

You cannot claim that all females are asked if they are pregnant if you don’t first establish taht they are female - by either examining their genitals or asking them if they are female. And you explicitly claim that this should be done in the bold above…

There are more ways than that, with some of them more reliable than others.

… and I’m telling you, unequivocally, it is not done.

But you’re on a grievance outrage, so you’re going on and on and on about how terrible it is for a hospital to make sure they’ve identified all possibly pregnant people, because it fails to sufficiently mock the people you think should be institutionally mocked, and risk to pregnancies is just collateral damage.


This is just kind of disgusting at this point. I’m out.

I'm disgusted at your ridiculous accusation that I want people institutionally mocked.

Bye.

EDIT: Just so it is clear to everyone, you were never asked your sex because they already knew your sex. That's why instead of answering my question, you went on this rant accusing me of being a sociopathic sadist.

If you had imaging done and somebody failed to ask if you were pregnant, you haven't said so. So I assume they have asked. And the reason they asked is because you are female and they already knew you were female.

And the reason they don't need to ask you every single time is because sex in mammals doesn't change.

 

[Rhea]

Just so it is clear to everyone, you were never asked your sex because they already knew your sex. Th

Just so it is clear, no they did not already know my sex. That’s what I told you.

And the reason they need to ask me every single time is because it’s a different hospital/care center every single time, and they are different caregivers every single time. It is absurd to think I’ve had the same xray tech at the same hospital for DOZENS of x-rays over scores of years, across state lines.

Your compulsive need to drive your theory in the face of all evidence is absurd.

All they have to do is ask everyone if they are pregnant. And they’ll catch them all. It’s so simple.

 

[Metaphor]

Just so it is clear, no they did not already know my sex. That’s what I told you.

And the reason they need to ask me every single time is because it’s a different hospital/care center every single time, and they are different caregivers every single time. It is absurd to think I’ve had the same xray tech at the same hospital for DOZENS of x-rays over scores of years, across state lines.

I didn't say you did. Were you given referrals to these imaging procedures? Or did you swan in off the street and decide you needed some imaging done? What on earth makes you think they didn't know your sex?

And you didn't answer my question. Did you, as a female, fail to get asked if you were pregnant during these imaging procedures?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If there are females on this board that got an imaging procedure and were not asked if they were pregnant, please come forth and share your story.

Loren's story that his female wife was asked about her pregnancy status are irrelevant. Loren's story that he was marked as F on a scan are irrelevant, because Loren is an M and no scan harmed his gestating fetus.

You miss the point. I gave that example because it was very clear the nurse was going on appearance, not the chart. No nurse would have knowingly asked a 70 year old for a pregnancy test. I also gave the example of my SIL repeatedly being thought male. What if that same nurse were to encounter my SIL and not realize a pregnancy test was warranted?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Men are not demeaned when they are equated with women, given the same treatment as women, not held separate and apart from women, etc. They might feel insulted, especially if they're male chauvinists, but having to answer the same questions on a single standard form isn't an insult.

It's an insult to one's intelligence and puts me on notice I'm dealing with morons.

Just because you don't understand the error scenario being guarded against doesn't make the person doing so a moron.

 

[Metaphor]

If there are females on this board that got an imaging procedure and were not asked if they were pregnant, please come forth and share your story.

Loren's story that his female wife was asked about her pregnancy status are irrelevant. Loren's story that he was marked as F on a scan are irrelevant, because Loren is an M and no scan harmed his gestating fetus.

You miss the point. I gave that example because it was very clear the nurse was going on appearance, not the chart. No nurse would have knowingly asked a 70 year old for a pregnancy test.

Wait - so you mean there is a good reason not to ask 70 year old women if they are pregnant?

Astonishing! And here I was thinking there was no good reason not to ask every patient every question.

I also gave the example of my SIL repeatedly being thought male. What if that same nurse were to encounter my SIL and not realize a pregnancy test was warranted?

That would be resolved by asking all female patients if they were pregnant, no matter what their age.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's how your approach goes:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Male.
Doctor: Are you currently pregnant, or is it possible that you might be pregnant?
Patient:... Did I not just tell you I was male?
Doctor: Yes, but you shouldn't be offended at being asked the same questions as women.
Patient: But... I'm male. It's a stupid question.
Doctor: Well, clearly you're a sexist so there!

Let's extend that the other direction:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Female.
Doctor: Is it possible that you might have prostate cancer?
Patient: I don't have a prostate, did you even graduate medical school? Go find someone competent to treat me!

MTF could be female and have prostate cancer.

And the issue is far more about when the events are separated in time. That day my wife was asked for a pregnancy test she wasn't asked about sex.

 

[Metaphor]

Here's how your approach goes:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Male.
Doctor: Are you currently pregnant, or is it possible that you might be pregnant?
Patient:... Did I not just tell you I was male?
Doctor: Yes, but you shouldn't be offended at being asked the same questions as women.
Patient: But... I'm male. It's a stupid question.
Doctor: Well, clearly you're a sexist so there!

Let's extend that the other direction:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Female.
Doctor: Is it possible that you might have prostate cancer?
Patient: I don't have a prostate, did you even graduate medical school? Go find someone competent to treat me!

MTF could be female and have prostate cancer.

Non. Humans cannot change sex. MtF is a social descriptor not a biological reality.

 

[Emily Lake]

Some people like to kick up fuss over the tiniest of perceived slights.

Maybe you think that your doctor not understanding your anatomy is a "tiny" thing. But I've nearly been killed by my anatomy, because doctors did NOT take it into account. I don't consider nearly dying because my doctors didn't give any thought to me having a FEMALE anatomy to be a "tiny" thing.

 

[Emily Lake]

Here's how your approach goes:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Male.
Doctor: Are you currently pregnant, or is it possible that you might be pregnant?
Patient:... Did I not just tell you I was male?
Doctor: Yes, but you shouldn't be offended at being asked the same questions as women.
Patient: But... I'm male. It's a stupid question.
Doctor: Well, clearly you're a sexist so there!

Let's extend that the other direction:
Doctor: What is your sex?
Patient: Female.
Doctor: Is it possible that you might have prostate cancer?
Patient: I don't have a prostate, did you even graduate medical school? Go find someone competent to treat me!

MTF could be female and have prostate cancer.

And the issue is far more about when the events are separated in time. That day my wife was asked for a pregnancy test she wasn't asked about sex.

MTF is still male. Humans are not clownfish, and cosmetic procedures don't actually change a person's real sex.

ETA: This right here is exactly the core of the problem. This ideology has sunk its roots in so deep that the very core elements of our nature have been subsumed by wishes and fantasy. The fact that you - a presumably well educated person who's been around a while - actually seem to think that a person taking exogenous hormones and having cosmetic surgery actually results in a literal change of sex is exactly why this is such a dangerous belief system.

Humans CANNOT change sex. No matter how effectively they can MIMIC the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of the opposite sex, they do NOT actually CHANGE SEX. Not at all, not even a little bit.

Females do NOT have prostates, females do NOT have penises, females do NOT produce sperm. Males do NOT have cervixes, males do NOT produce ova, males do NOT get pregnant.

I seriously find myself concerned and appalled when people that I had always assumed were moderately intelligent are parroting religious beliefs as if they were literally true. This seriously is not some out-on-the-edges science, it's not something that most people can't understand. It's an absolutely core element of our species, of ALL mammalian species. To actually say - and seemingly believe - that a person who undergoes cosmetic surgeries to change their outward appearance has actually literally for realsies changed sex belies a profound lack of knowledge and understanding of reality.

 

[Arctish]

Some people like to kick up fuss over the tiniest of perceived slights.

Maybe you think that your doctor not understanding your anatomy is a "tiny" thing. But I've nearly been killed by my anatomy, because doctors did NOT take it into account. I don't consider nearly dying because my doctors didn't give any thought to me having a FEMALE anatomy to be a "tiny" thing.

You have it completely backward. Whatever it was that nearly killed you should have been taken into account. It should have been part of the medical checklist those doctors employed so that they would have found it as they checked off possible causes of your medical emergency. It should be part of the medical checklist they use for ALL patients showing the symptoms you had.

Doctors know that M and F can indicate either gender or sex, and they know that whatever letter people write down at the top of the form isn't the last word on the presence or absence of certain reproductive organs in their bodies. And even if it were, doctors know that going over comprehensive checklists with all patients reduce the chances something important being forgotten or overlooked. They know that people in physical or emotional distress can give confusing answers and that errors in medical records can occur. They know it's better to check and double check, to get verbal confirmation regarding medical conditions, the use of drugs and over-the-counter medications, possible exposure to certain bacteria and viruses, etc., before doing scans and treatments that might have harmful outcomes.

It doesn't matter if you're FEMALE or MALE or INTERSEX or have a karyotype and endocrine sex so rare there isn't a commonly accepted term for it yet. EVERYONE filling out the same forms and going over the same checklists with staff is BETTER than having some patients being asked some questions that others aren't.

The goal here is to avoid doing harm, not to avoid offending the chauvinists and sexists who might get their undies in a bunch if the staff asks them questions they think should only be asked of the 'other' sex/gender/social construct/ chromosomal array.