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Marissa Alexander's 20/yr sentence overturned

a warning shot to stop a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER is "unacceptable" but murdering a 17-year old who was not doing anything more than walking home from the store is? Bullshit

The utter hypocrisy around here is disgusting.

Firing a shot into an ordinary wall is unacceptable. Unless you're shooting non-penetrating ammunition the wall isn't going to do much to the bullet, it's going to go on and hit whatever's on the other side of that wall. In other words, you just fired a random round into the neighborhood. Since it's reported that she had a concealed carry permit that should mean she had the classes and would know this.

If it really was a warning shot the 20 year sentence is what Florida law requires. The only problem is their mandatory sentencing rules.

So let me get this straight. If she shoots into a wall as a warning shot to deter her assailant she is guilty of a crime. If she actually shoots her assailant she is innocent of a crime
 
You did not pay attention to which SPECIFIC comment from Derec I was responding to. My disagreement with him and again SPECIFICALLY, being about his having placed on the same footing Marissa and her husband as he made the following claim (clearly quoted above in my reply to him) that they were "mutually abusive spouses".

Can you or nor comprehend what my disagreement with Derec is about? In case my above is still not clear enough, I will simplify :

Derec claimed that both Marissa and her husband were abusive spouses.

She attacked him, he attacked her. Why doesn't that qualify as mutually abusive?
If you paid attention to what I documented previously, you would not be parroting Derec's claim. Since you did not pay attention to my first attempt to document which of the 2 parties was an actually abusive spouse, here is Rico's documented deposition from recorded court transcripts:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/90595503/Marissa-Alexander-Alleged-Victim-Disposition

Let me suggest you pay attention to specifics relating his PATTERN of abusing not just Marissa but other women which he referred to as his "5 baby mommas" (by the way I did post those specific excerpts from the very same court transcripts in my earlier post, which interestingly neither you nor Derec have acknowledged). The pattern of his being an abusive personality was established via his own statements. Further, let me suggest you pay attention to his description of what led to the shooting incident. That is his own words, Loren and Derec.

You're barking up the wrong tree at least with me.

I've never claimed he wasn't abusive, thus your evidence showing he's abusive means nothing. I'm saying that her actions are *ALSO* wrong. She attacked him--not the actions of someone afraid for their life from being in his presence.
You did not read his description of the entire circumstances which led to her getting hold of a gun and firing a warning shot, did you? It is by his own words clearly depicted in the transcripts I linked to. Please, detail how her attempting to leave while he was attempting to block her constitutes an "attack" on her part? Detail how her being in the bathroom while he admitted to have banged on the door to the point of "dents" while demanding she gets out constitutes an "attack" on her part. Detail how his pursuing to intimidate her constitutes an "attack " on her part.

Detail how her choosing to flee in view of his persistent attempts to PHYSICALLY block her constitute an "attack" on her. Detail how her heading to the garage to find a safe escape/exit route while he had been blocking her PHYSICALLY and kept demanding she does not leave constitutes an "attack" on her part. While he admitted he knew the garage door was locked and she could NOT exit that way.

And you have the audacity to portray her as an abusive party? Are you kidding me?


There were other incidents also--he had a restraining order on her.
Is that what you are referring to, speaking of RO :

https://niastories.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/marissa-alexander-case-study-final.pdf

In August 2010, Marissa Alexander was a 31-year-old, 5-ft. 2-in. mother of three, her baby just 9 days
old, living in Jacksonville, Fla. Her 36-year-old husband Rico Gray was arrested in 2009 for attacking her
and sending her to the hospital, after which she got a restraining order against him

Outside of her violating her bail condition during which she did initiate contact with Gray and punched him, which "there were other incidents also--" are you referring to? And please, try to document.



I am skeptical that you will read the entirety of those court transcripts as you tend to dismiss what is documented. One very important point here is he admitted he KNEW the garage door was jammed and locked. (that in view of Derec having jumped to the conclusion that she lied about not being able to leave via the garage door). Basically she had no safe exit away from a man who had been attempting to block her from leaving (from his own deposition recorded in those transcripts)

She was in a place of safety--the garage.
Really? She had just been prevented from leaving via his physically blocking her and by Gray who already had a history of having attacked her and assaulted her when she was pregnant, resulting in her visit to a hospital and you so blissfully obliviously claim that being in the garage was a "safe place"? Again, are you kidding me?

Mind you that entire drama started with : as she was showing him pics of their infant daughter and went to the bathroom, he saw in her cell that she had sent copies of the pics to her ex husband. He then goes into a fit, marches to the bathroom where she is and bangs on the door demanding she exits to "talk to him" (now, really who would want "to talk" with an individual who is going into a rage fit and has a documented history of resorting to physical violence when he gets mad????) That is when Marissa started demanding he leaves the house. But now according to you as quoted below " she was ordering him to leave- something she had no right to do".

And under which rationally constructed reasoning, Loren, can you support your belief that "she had no right to..." ordering him to leave in view of his intimidating her, yelling at her, while demanding she talks to him based on his jealousy fit? To include the important detail of his documented history of
having assaulted her previously? As she then attempts to leave, he pursues to PHYSICALLY block her. But according to your own version, he is the victim of Marissa's "attack" on him. Are you kidding me?


Furthermore, that deposition is very bad for her--she was trying to order him to leave, something she had no right to do.
Are you implying that based on your lack of knowledge of how that drama unraveled, Marissa had no justification to demand he leaves DESPITE of Gray's threatening behavior?Again, are you kidding me?

Further, it appears we are now down to her "sins" being about her having demanded he leaves in view of an undeniable fit of rage motivated by his obsessive jealousy. Because the "she attacked him, so he attacked her" does not hold any water at this point in view of all the above. Unless one considers that Marissa showing him pics of their infant daughter was an "attack " she somehow initiated on him. Then the bathroom episode etc...
 
I don't know the full details of the case but it seems a bit of asinine logic to allow people to own guns and then jail them for 20 years for using it despite the circumstances.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/marissa-alexander-prosecutor_n_1504428.html
It's Florida for ya! There are just so many mind boggling things happening in the Sunshine State.

In addition the prosecution said she fire out of anger and not fear? Does that mean if she had killed him, it would okay to do so in fear but not in anger. In this instance the result would be the same. Likewise the shot she fired whether in anger, fear or in fun would still have the same effect.

Regards
 
The wall is not the issue, it's that there were three people, including two children, in the vicinity of the bullet trajectory.
. According to you, they were "small children" which means they couldn't have been "in the vicinity of the bullet trajectory". As for him, he is a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER - even he admits that, even his "small children" admit that.

Are you suggesting that no one has the right of self-defense if there are "small children" anywhere around? If so, how come you defended Zimmerman and Michael Dunn?

A warning shot in self-defense is not against the law.
It wasn't either self defense nor a warning shot... [\quote] In your biased opinion

and in any case warning shots were illegal when she committed her crime anyway. Unfortunately, since then Florida passed a misguided law legalizing warning shots and the anti-gun Left was pretty silent about this expansion of gun-nut culture, all because of their ideological support for... Marissa.
as I said before, it sounds like people like you are saying she would have been better off killing Rico Gray point blank. Of course, maybe not since Marissa is female & black whereas Rico is only black.

However, I do not think that this law will be applied retroactively even if a jury were to come to believe that her shooting at her ex and his children... qualifies as a "warning shot".
No matter how many times you attempt to ratchet up the rhetoric, it will still be untrue to claim that she shot "at" Rico Gray. She was certified for "conceal carry". If she had wanted to kill him, she could have.
 
a warning shot to stop a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER is "unacceptable" but murdering a 17-year old who was not doing anything more than walking home from the store is? Bullshit

The utter hypocrisy around here is disgusting.

Firing a shot into an ordinary wall is unacceptable.
when you and Derec reverse your positions on Zimmerman and Michael Dunn - both of whom discharged their weapons in public spaces) then I will buy that you actually think shooting a warning shot into a wall is "unacceptable".

Basically, what you and Derec are arguing is that shooting one's gun in a public populated place, and purposely KILLING innocent black teenagers while endangering everyone else "in the vicinity" is acceptable, but shooting a warning shot INSIDE a house to genuinely defend one's self from a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER is "unacceptable"
 
Basically, what you and Derec are arguing is that shooting one's gun in a public populated place, and purposely KILLING innocent black teenagers while endangering everyone else "in the vicinity" is acceptable, but shooting a warning shot INSIDE a house to genuinely defend one's self from a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER is "unacceptable"
You forgot "when done by a black woman" at the end of that sentence.
 
Basically, what you and Derec are arguing is that shooting one's gun in a public populated place, and purposely KILLING innocent black teenagers while endangering everyone else "in the vicinity" is acceptable, but shooting a warning shot INSIDE a house to genuinely defend one's self from a KNOWN VIOLENT ABUSER is "unacceptable"
You forgot "when done by a black woman" at the end of that sentence.

Yup: that's a double whammy right there.
 
Firing a shot into an ordinary wall is unacceptable. Unless you're shooting non-penetrating ammunition the wall isn't going to do much to the bullet, it's going to go on and hit whatever's on the other side of that wall. In other words, you just fired a random round into the neighborhood. Since it's reported that she had a concealed carry permit that should mean she had the classes and would know this.

If it really was a warning shot the 20 year sentence is what Florida law requires. The only problem is their mandatory sentencing rules.

So let me get this straight. If she shoots into a wall as a warning shot to deter her assailant she is guilty of a crime. If she actually shoots her assailant she is innocent of a crime

Her later attack on him demonstrates that she wasn't in fear of her life in the situation. Thus she wouldn't be justified in shooting him, either.

I was addressing the cases separately because the reasons are separate.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know the full details of the case but it seems a bit of asinine logic to allow people to own guns and then jail them for 20 years for using it despite the circumstances.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/marissa-alexander-prosecutor_n_1504428.html

She was offered a *MUCH* better plea deal. She didn't take it.
 
If you paid attention to what I documented previously, you would not be parroting Derec's claim. Since you did not pay attention to my first attempt to document which of the 2 parties was an actually abusive spouse, here is Rico's documented deposition from recorded court transcripts:

Repeating the same error doesn't fix it. I have never disagreed that he is abusive, continuing to prove it does no good. What you're being unwilling to consider is that she is also abusive.

Detail how her choosing to flee in view of his persistent attempts to PHYSICALLY block her constitute an "attack" on her. Detail how her heading to the garage to find a safe escape/exit route while he had been blocking her PHYSICALLY and kept demanding she does not leave constitutes an "attack" on her part. While he admitted he knew the garage door was locked and she could NOT exit that way.

He didn't follow her into the garage. She's safe.

Further, it appears we are now down to her "sins" being about her having demanded he leaves in view of an undeniable fit of rage motivated by his obsessive jealousy. Because the "she attacked him, so he attacked her" does not hold any water at this point in view of all the above. Unless one considers that Marissa showing him pics of their infant daughter was an "attack " she somehow initiated on him. Then the bathroom episode etc...

She had no right to order him to leave his residence. She had no justification for the use of lethal force. Fortunately for her he wasn't armed as he *DID* have justification to use lethal force.
 
She was certified for "conceal carry". If she had wanted to kill him, she could have.
Having a conceal carry permit doesn't magically give people great marksmanship skills.

For all the posters clueless about firearms. Warning shots are for movies and warfare. They work in film and TV because scripts dictate how things turn out not reality. And they work in war because mishaps can be labeled acceptable collateral damage. Warning shots are foolish in self defense situations because civilians need to be held accountable for their firearm discharges. Every shot they fire "in the air" or near their attacker is potentially putting someone innocent in danger. Also if someone is truly in a life threatening situation requiring shots to be fired they need to be eliminating that danger immediately.

If they have time to fire warning shots then their life wasn't in eminent danger. Here's an example. An attacker has a gun an is intent on using it to harm you. If you take the time to fire a warning shot the attacker could be returning fire and killing you. Or if the attacker is charging towards you they could overtake and disarm you if use foolish used your window of self defense to fire warning shots.
 
She was certified for "conceal carry". If she had wanted to kill him, she could have.
Having a conceal carry permit doesn't magically give people great marksmanship skills.

For all the posters clueless about firearms. Warning shots are for movies and warfare. They work in film and TV because scripts dictate how things turn out not reality. And they work in war because mishaps can be labeled acceptable collateral damage. Warning shots are foolish in self defense situations because civilians need to be held accountable for their firearm discharges. Every shot they fire "in the air" or near their attacker is potentially putting someone innocent in danger. Also if someone is truly in a life threatening situation requiring shots to be fired they need to be eliminating that danger immediately.

If they have time to fire warning shots then their life wasn't in eminent danger. Here's an example. An attacker has a gun an is intent on using it to harm you. If you take the time to fire a warning shot the attacker could be returning fire and killing you. Or if the attacker is charging towards you they could overtake and disarm you if use foolish used your window of self defense to fire warning shots.


Have to agree with all of the this. If the undisputed facts are that she intentionally fired a weapon anywhere remotely in the direction of where he and his kids were, then she committed serious crime worthy of jail time. If it was a "warning shot" then it should not be attempted murder, but still multiple counts of reckless endangerment and making an explicit death threat.
 
If they have time to fire warning shots then their life wasn't in eminent danger. Here's an example. An attacker has a gun an is intent on using it to harm you. If you take the time to fire a warning shot the attacker could be returning fire and killing you. Or if the attacker is charging towards you they could overtake and disarm you if use foolish used your window of self defense to fire warning shots.
Or the attacker could say "Whoa, you mean business" and stop charging. Whether warning shots are effective self-defense actions is immaterial to this situation. 20 years for firing a gun at someone and hitting only a wall seems just a bit excessive to me.
 
She was certified for "conceal carry". If she had wanted to kill him, she could have.
Having a conceal carry permit doesn't magically give people great marksmanship skills.

For all the posters clueless about firearms. Warning shots are for movies and warfare. They work in film and TV because scripts dictate how things turn out not reality. And they work in war because mishaps can be labeled acceptable collateral damage. Warning shots are foolish in self defense situations because civilians need to be held accountable for their firearm discharges. Every shot they fire "in the air" or near their attacker is potentially putting someone innocent in danger. Also if someone is truly in a life threatening situation requiring shots to be fired they need to be eliminating that danger immediately.

If they have time to fire warning shots then their life wasn't in eminent danger. Here's an example. An attacker has a gun an is intent on using it to harm you. If you take the time to fire a warning shot the attacker could be returning fire and killing you. Or if the attacker is charging towards you they could overtake and disarm you if use foolish used your window of self defense to fire warning shots.

The only situation I can see a warning shot making sense is to make a threat that is currently standing still decide that retreat is the best course of action and that only if you have some place you can send the round that poses no threat. City dwellers rarely have something around they could trust to absorb a bullet. (Thinking of our house the only thing I would trust is the bags of salt for the water softener. Soft enough it won't ricochet, enough mass that it will stop a round.)
 
If they have time to fire warning shots then their life wasn't in eminent danger. Here's an example. An attacker has a gun an is intent on using it to harm you. If you take the time to fire a warning shot the attacker could be returning fire and killing you. Or if the attacker is charging towards you they could overtake and disarm you if use foolish used your window of self defense to fire warning shots.
Or the attacker could say "Whoa, you mean business" and stop charging. Whether warning shots are effective self-defense actions is immaterial to this situation. 20 years for firing a gun at someone and hitting only a wall seems just a bit excessive to me.

That's Florida's mandatory sentencing laws at work. Fire a gun in a crime and it's an automatic 20 years.
 
Repeating the same error doesn't fix it. I have never disagreed that he is abusive, continuing to prove it does no good. What you're being unwilling to consider is that she is also abusive.
You have in no way demonstrated she was a "mutually abusive spouse" which was Derec's initial claim. In no way demonstrated that "she attacked him, he attacked her". His description of the entire incident in the quoted transcripts demonstrates that he is the party who went on the attack and through the following steps :

1) As she was in the bathroom, after he saw she had sent pics of their infant daughter to her ex husband, he flew into a rage, banged on the bathroom door, yelling at her, demanding she comes out to talk to him.

2) As she exited, she attempted to leave but he kept blocking her physically, still demanding that she talks to him while preventing her to leave. She then demanded he leaves.

3) As he kept obstructing her leaving, she went to the garage thinking she could get in her car and leave from that location. He admits in his deposition that he knew she could not leave from there because the garage door had been jammed and was locked.

From the above and summarized from his description in the transcript, demonstrate how "she attacked him, he attacked her".(that was your statement that "she attacked him, he attacked her".

Further, demonstrate how :

1) Marissa going to use the restroom, makes her abusive.

2) Marissa attempting to leave after she exited the bathroom makes her abusive.

3) Marissa demanding he leaves in view of his volatile fit (which echoes his history of physical abuse which she was a victim of when she was pregnant, resulting in her going to the hospital) makes her abusive.

4) Marissa going to the garage to get to her car to exit via the garage (since he was blocking her physically to leave via the entrance door and he refused to leave) makes her abusive.

Who, Loren, created and initiated a climate of insecurity and intimidated the other party based on the above? Who had a history of resorting to physical violence and admitted in the deposition that he was always the one who started it in the course of his relationship with Marissa. He started it based on the above. He went from looking at those pics as they had just had breakfast to flying into his usual getting mad. And his usual getting mad already carried the precedent of his resorting to physical violence and using his fists on the women he had relationships with. To include Marissa.

You stated "she attacked him, he attacked her". Point specifically where any of the described steps above she took constitutes a "she attacked him". Surely her showing pics cannot be interpreted as "attacking him". He flew in a rage. He is the party who initiated it.

You appear to be justifying his volatile fit targeting Marissa when you stated "she attacked him, he attacked her". That would be very concerning.


Detail how her choosing to flee in view of his persistent attempts to PHYSICALLY block her constitute an "attack" on her. Detail how her heading to the garage to find a safe escape/exit route while he had been blocking her PHYSICALLY and kept demanding she does not leave constitutes an "attack" on her part. While he admitted he knew the garage door was locked and she could NOT exit that way.

He didn't follow her into the garage. She's safe.
You are still NOT demonstrating how "she attacked him, he attacked her". I have gone through all the steps described by Rico in his deposition in the court transcripts. Those steps demonstrate that she did not initiate an "attack " on him. The moment he flew into his rage and went after her as she was in the bathroom, there is not doubt he was the party attacking her. How about you reverse your "she attacked him, he attacked her" to "he attacked her, she attacked him".

As to your speculating that she "is safe in the garage", what leads you to believe that Rico was not the type of individual who would pursue to harass physically and verbally a woman who would not comply with his demands? Have you not paid attention to his history? His "5 baby mommas" comment escaped your attention? Oh and by the way the "baby mommas" in question have confirmed he was the type to resort to using his fists on women when he did not get his way.

Further, it appears we are now down to her "sins" being about her having demanded he leaves in view of an undeniable fit of rage motivated by his obsessive jealousy. Because the "she attacked him, so he attacked her" does not hold any water at this point in view of all the above. Unless one considers that Marissa showing him pics of their infant daughter was an "attack " she somehow initiated on him. Then the bathroom episode etc...

She had no right to order him to leave his residence.
Ah... so really what bothers you here is that she demanded he leaves while he was blocking her physically from leaving while he was throwing a fit of rage which he initiated, which led him to harass her while she was in the bathroom, banging on that door, yelling at her and pursuing to physically block her from leaving after she exited the bathroom. It is quite interesting that you seem to have NO issue with his behavior where he is the party who keeps preventing her from leaving the said residence, residence where she had spent the night and certainly not against his will since he had asked her to spend the night there.


She had no justification for the use of lethal force.
According to your repeated dismissal of the reality exposed in the transcripts of his having been the party who attacked her in the course of his fit of rage. Further, your blissfully obliviously formulated conclusion that she was safe in the garage. As if there were no precedent/antecedent of his use of physical violence on women who did not comply with his demands, to include Marissa. Why are you expecting a woman who had been one of his victims of physical violence (to add to the other "baby mommas") to believe that as long as he would prevent her from leaving and she would be stuck in that garage, she was somehow safe and protected from Rico's pattern of his use of fists on women who do not comply with his demands?


Fortunately for her he wasn't armed as he *DID* have justification to use lethal force.
The Florida Statutes on self defense claims do give the initial aggressor or party who presented a danger of harm to another party(aggressor would be Rico since it is established that he was the party who initiated a threat from the get go) the right to rely on the use of lethal force if the party who feels threatened responds with the use of disproportional force. Because of that specific statute, Marissa's response to what she established would turn out to be harm on her person and potentially fatal to her is then deemed disproportionate to the threat Rico presented.
 
The case hinges on who is believable:

Marissa Alexander alleges that she was abused prior to the gun incident as well as during the day of the incident and that she was acting out of fear for her life. She had a restraining order against Gray. She had been previously hospitalized because of Gray's assault of her. At least 5 other women have alleged that Gray abused them; Gray's initial testimony is that he abused every single mother of any of his children, with the exception of one woman. He further testified in great detail about how he assaulted Alexander repeatedly on the day of the gun incident.

Then Gray changed his testimony and claimed he never abused Alexander or any other woman. There are documents which support his prior abuse of Alexander and other women to the point of sending them to the hospital. These documents were deemed inadmissible in court. When Gray called 911, he reportedly at least partially supported Alexander's allegations of abuse:

Gray’s account aligns with this — and adds a bit of color. Gray says that just before heading into the garage, Alexander told him, “I got something for your ass.” When she came back in with the gun, he put his hands in the air. After the shot, he fled out the front door with his sons and called 911. “She said she’s ‘sick of this sh*t,’” he told the dispatcher. “She shot at me, inside the house, while my boys were standing right next to me. Lord have mercy.”

There are multiple explanations for why Alexander could not open the garage door while investigators later found it in good working order. One would be if Gray were operating a button on another control for the door. At least one is supported by Gray's testimony in his first deposition that he knew she could not leave through the garage because it was locked. This is the same deposition where he states she fired into the air, not at him or his sons, ages 9 and 13. And the same one where he describes putting her into the hospital earlier in their relationship and his assault of her just prior to the shooting incident.

I am perplexed why such vastly conflicting testimony from the same person was admitted during trial. At best, Gray has demonstrated that he is a liar. There is ample long established evidence that he abuses women at will.
 
This is the same deposition where he states she fired into the air, not at him or his sons, ages 9 and 13. And the same one where he describes putting her into the hospital earlier in their relationship and his assault of her just prior to the shooting incident.
Since the bolded part is disproven by physical evidence of the bullet hole in the wall everything else in that deposition must be taken with a shaker of salt. Obviously he was lying to protect his ex - his initial statements to the 911 operator are much more credible. She repaid him by going to his house (that in itself was a violation of her bail conditions) and attacking him, giving him a black eye.

As to him being a liar, she initially denied going to his house in the first place. So both of them are abusive spouses, both of them are liars, but only one of them shot at the other and two children.
 
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Or the attacker could say "Whoa, you mean business" and stop charging. Whether warning shots are effective self-defense actions is immaterial to this situation. 20 years for firing a gun at someone and hitting only a wall seems just a bit excessive to me.

That's Florida's mandatory sentencing laws at work. Fire a gun in a crime and it's an automatic 20 years.
Clearly that is not the case because Zimmerman is not doing any time.
 
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