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Marissa Alexander's 20/yr sentence overturned

He didn't follow her into the garage. She's safe.
Effectively imprisoned in the house of an abusive person, with no way to get out. That doesn't really sound particularly safe to me.

And if he entered the garage she would have been justified in shooting.

The reality is she ended the confrontation by going to the garage. Anything that happened before she entered the garage is now irrelevant.

Furthermore, even had she not entered the garage telling him to leave was not something she had a right to do--it was his place, not hers. "Let me leave" would have been legal, but that's not what she did.
For some reason, you think any of this relevant. You have no idea what was going on in her mind. You have no idea whether she felt threatened or not. You have no idea whether she knew where her husband was when she moved around. All in all, you are simply making up stuff to fit your "narrative" of what happened. It makes little sense to post an ideal set of reactions and then criticize her for not following them.

Nothing was threatening her in the garage. You can't shoot based on unreasonable fears.

She chose to enter the house. New incident, she knew she was confronting someone hostile. She can't shoot.

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Huh? She went to the garage to leave, he didn't follow. She grabbed her gun and went back inside and fired a shot at him. What was his original story?

His original deposition and her story is that she went into the garage. He knew she could not leave through the garage: it was locked at the time. Hers: She figured out she could not leave through the garage. She thought the garage door was not operational. She retrieved the gun to get him to back off so that she could leave through another exit. She had left her phone in the house and could not call for help.

Then why was she telling him to leave rather than telling him to get out of her way?
 
You are right. I don't know for a fact the front door leads into the kitchen. I've never in my fifty-plus years of my life seen such a residence so I just assumed. Do you have evidence that, even though extremely unlikely, the front door enters into the kitchen? If so, then, gee, you've got me.

And again, the rest of the extraneous bullshit you are coming up with matters not.

What I have never seen in my life is a house with only one door. Go out another!

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She had spent the night at the house and had had breakfast with her husband and his kids. THAT is why her car was in the garage. After breakfast she was showing him pictures of their baby (who was days old and still in the hospital) and while she was in the bathroom he snooped through her texts, decided he was pissed and started beating her.

Arguing with, not beating.
 
What I have never seen in my life is a house with only one door. Go out another!

If she was in the garage, her choices were to go back into the house through the garage door or go out the garage door, which Gray stated was locked. She couldn't exit through the garage; she didn't have her phone--it was left in the bedroom.


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She had spent the night at the house and had had breakfast with her husband and his kids. THAT is why her car was in the garage. After breakfast she was showing him pictures of their baby (who was days old and still in the hospital) and while she was in the bathroom he snooped through her texts, decided he was pissed and started beating her.

Arguing with, not beating.

Well, not according to Gray's deposition:

But it was the words of Gray himself, in his Nov. 22, 2010, deposition, that best illustrated the perversity of his wife’s prosecution and conviction and unyielding prison sentence.

Sitting in the State Attorney’s Office, Gray described how he had erupted in anger when he discovered text messages on his wife’s phone to another man. (Alexander had moved out, but had come home briefly that day to retrieve her clothes.) “I was in a rage. I called her a whore and bitch and . . . I told her, you know, I used to always tell her that, if I can’t have you, nobody going to have you. It was not the first time of ever saying it to her.”

Gray said he had intimated that he had unsavory friends who would carry out vengeful acts on his behalf. “I ain’t going to lie. I been on the streets before I started driving trucks, you know, so I know a lot of people and she knows I know a lot of people.”

As they argued, he recounted, Marissa retreated into the bathroom. “I don’t recall breaking the door open, but I know I beat on it hard enough where it could have been broken open. Probably had some dents.”

Once he managed to get inside, he said he pushed her into the door with enough violence to further damage the door.

Did you put your hands around her neck? “Not that particular day. No.”

They struggled. She ran out through the laundry room into the garage. “But I knew she couldn’t leave out of the garage because the garage door was locked.” She came back, he said, with a gun, yelling at him to leave. “I told her I ain’t leaving until you talk to me, I ain’t going nowhere, and so I started walking toward her and she shot in the air.

He added details. “I start walking toward her, because she was telling me to leave the whole time and, you know, I was cursing and all that.” His two sons by a previous marriage were in the room. “If my kids wouldn’t have been there, I probably would have put my hand on her. Probably hit her. I got five baby mommas and I put my hands on every last one of them, except for one."

“I physically abused them. Emotionally. You know.”

And then came what should have been the clincher: “I honestly think she just didn’t want me to put my hands on her anymore so she did what she feel like she have to do to make sure she wouldn’t get hurt, you know. You know, she did what she had to do.”

He said, “The gun was never actually pointed at me. When she raised the gun down and raised it up, you know, the gun was never pointed at me. The fact is, you know . . . she never been violent toward me. I was always the one starting it. If she was violent toward me, it was because she was trying to get me up off her or stop me from doing.”
 
What I have never seen in my life is a house with only one door. Go out another!

If she was in the garage, her choices were to go back into the house through the garage door or go out the garage door, which Gray stated was locked. She couldn't exit through the garage; she didn't have her phone--it was left in the bedroom.


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Arguing with, not beating.

Well, not according to Gray's deposition:

But it was the words of Gray himself, in his Nov. 22, 2010, deposition, that best illustrated the perversity of his wife’s prosecution and conviction and unyielding prison sentence.

Sitting in the State Attorney’s Office, Gray described how he had erupted in anger when he discovered text messages on his wife’s phone to another man. (Alexander had moved out, but had come home briefly that day to retrieve her clothes.) “I was in a rage. I called her a whore and bitch and . . . I told her, you know, I used to always tell her that, if I can’t have you, nobody going to have you. It was not the first time of ever saying it to her.”

Gray said he had intimated that he had unsavory friends who would carry out vengeful acts on his behalf. “I ain’t going to lie. I been on the streets before I started driving trucks, you know, so I know a lot of people and she knows I know a lot of people.”

As they argued, he recounted, Marissa retreated into the bathroom. “I don’t recall breaking the door open, but I know I beat on it hard enough where it could have been broken open. Probably had some dents.”

Once he managed to get inside, he said he pushed her into the door with enough violence to further damage the door.

Did you put your hands around her neck? “Not that particular day. No.”

They struggled. She ran out through the laundry room into the garage. “But I knew she couldn’t leave out of the garage because the garage door was locked.” She came back, he said, with a gun, yelling at him to leave. “I told her I ain’t leaving until you talk to me, I ain’t going nowhere, and so I started walking toward her and she shot in the air.

He added details. “I start walking toward her, because she was telling me to leave the whole time and, you know, I was cursing and all that.” His two sons by a previous marriage were in the room. “If my kids wouldn’t have been there, I probably would have put my hand on her. Probably hit her. I got five baby mommas and I put my hands on every last one of them, except for one."

“I physically abused them. Emotionally. You know.”

And then came what should have been the clincher: “I honestly think she just didn’t want me to put my hands on her anymore so she did what she feel like she have to do to make sure she wouldn’t get hurt, you know. You know, she did what she had to do.”

He said, “The gun was never actually pointed at me. When she raised the gun down and raised it up, you know, the gun was never pointed at me. The fact is, you know . . . she never been violent toward me. I was always the one starting it. If she was violent toward me, it was because she was trying to get me up off her or stop me from doing.”

What was his original story when the cops showed up?
 
Nothing was threatening her in the garage. You can't shoot based on unreasonable fears
She chose to enter the house. New incident, she knew she was confronting someone hostile. She can't shoot.
Your response is based on your biased view of what she ought to have done. What is relevant is her frame of mind and whether or not it was reasonable. I find your claim that her fear of an abusive husband who was blocking her egress was unreasonable to be utterly inconsistent with the known facts of their relationship and human decency.
 
1. HER house too. BOTH names were on the deed.
2. She DID beg to leave. He wouldn't let her. You don't get to get all pissy about her then trying to tell him to leave :rolleyes:

Apparently a woman only has the right to defend herself against an abusive husband after she's dead, because anything short of her being dead is not abuse enough for some people.

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Had he gone to her place I would take a different position.
. It was her place too. I'm willing to bet you still won't change your position.
That is true in S. Carolina!
 
She chose to enter the house. New incident, she knew she was confronting someone hostile. She can't shoot.

So if you carry a gun and confront someone you know to be hostile you can't shoot if they become a threat subsequent to your starting the confrontation? Are you sure that is the standard here in Florida?
 
She chose to enter the house.

Because the garage was stuck.

Reading the guy's deposition indicating that he would have beat her if the kids weren't there, that he beats his "baby mommas", that he had smashed up the bathroom door in this particular incident, that she had attempted to retreat through the garage which he knew to be jammed, and that he was moving towards her when she fired the shot, etc... I don't understand the duty to retreat that you are placing on her relative to other gun cases.
 
You continue to engage in incorrect attacks on my position.
Evidence of your statement that "she attacked him, he attacked her" in the midst of our exchanges where I was asking you to provide evidence that she was an abusive spouse :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...tence-overturned&p=77411&viewfull=1#post77411

I am saying that overall it was a mutually abusive relationship.
Document that in the course of their relationship Marissa was an abusive spouse. You have no evidence for your claim. Whereas I previously documented the reason why Marissa had a RO on Rico Gray. Further from the court transcripts I provided, Rico admitted to have abused her and further made a clear mention of his "5 baby mommas" he all abused except for one.

Further,

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/crime/2014/10/10/rico-gray-exes-claim-abuse/17025979/




I am *NOT* saying that she was abusive in the encounter in question, but rather that other actions of hers show that she wasn't afraid to be in the same room with him.
You stated and as evidence provided above linking to your post regarding her so called being a "mutually abusive spouse", "she attacked him, he attacked her". I am asking you again to document which incidents occurred in the course of their relationship where she "attacked him" and resulting then in "he attacked her". You made her the CAUSE of his physical abuse. Either it is extremely poor wording on your part or you are attempting (again) to portray her as having been an abusive spouse in the course of their relationship.

Effectively imprisoned in the house of an abusive person, with no way to get out. That doesn't really sound particularly safe to me.
Further, Loren's evaluation of her being safe in the garage and under the specific condition that the abusive party was undeniably attempting to prevent her from leaving the home while he was obviously into a state of rage totally contradicts the guidelines to safety given to victims of DV. IOW, his evaluation is totally disconnected from existing realities.

There is not one single person who was a victim of DV who would feel safe anywhere in a home they cannot escape from while the abusive party has access to any of the rooms to include the garage.

You don't move from a place of minimal danger (the garage) to a place of high danger (the house).
You keep sticking to your belief that the garage was a safe place for her to be to then conclude the garage was a place of minimal danger. The only place where there is minimal or no danger at all is to be AWAY from the house where the abusive party is. Meaning getting the hell out of there. Garage or any other room means proximity to the source. Not anyone who would actually be familiar with the "safe exit" rules given to any person facing a volatile and intimidating abusive party would ever advise the victim that the "garage" or ANYWHERE in the house or apartment is "safe" or "minimal danger". Especially in a situation where they cannot get out because they are being blocked by the abusive party.Again, you have no knowledge of what "flee or fight" means in DV situations. "Fight" becomes the sole alternative when the "flee" has been prevented by the abusive party.
 
You mean like Zimmerman and Dunn did?
Dunn was convicted. With Zimmerman the jury determined that it was a reasonable fear on account of Trayvon giving him whoop-ass at the time of shooting.
Note that Marissa had no injuries that day which would suggest he attacked her.

She tried. The garage was locked/jammed.
So she says. But then she is good at inventing self-serving lies.
When she attacked Grey later she first lied about not being there at all. Then she lied about him attacking her. Then she feigned a medical emergency and injured herself to make it look as if he attacked her.
So forgive me if I do not trust her on the state of the door.

By the way, do you still believe that incident never happened and was just invented by MRAs in order to discredit her?
 
I thought this was interesting. From the 911 call Rico made on the morning of the shooting.

4:45-“I can’t believe she'd shoot in front of me…[corrects himself] shoot at [emphasis his] me…I’m so pissed off right now.”

7:12-“She just aimed the gun at us then she shot…well I know she probably wasn’t aiming at my kids…but she might as well be…”

http://www.letstalkaboutit.info/2012/05/4-lies-distortions-and-inaccuracies_19.html


What did you find interesting? The call is more in line with her firing near him then a strict straight up warning shot.
 
Dunn was convicted. With Zimmerman the jury determined that it was a reasonable fear on account of Trayvon giving him whoop-ass at the time of shooting.
Note that Marissa had no injuries that day which would suggest he attacked her.

She tried. The garage was locked/jammed.
So she says. But then she is good at inventing self-serving lies.
When she attacked Grey later she first lied about not being there at all. Then she lied about him attacking her. Then she feigned a medical emergency and injured herself to make it look as if he attacked her.
So forgive me if I do not trust her on the state of the door.

By the way, do you still believe that incident never happened and was just invented by MRAs in order to discredit her?


Why do you find Gray to be a credible witness? He lied uner oath--either during his deposition or at trial: at least one of those accounts must be a lie.

Further, in his 911 call, he is reframing the narrative during the call, first saying that she fired on front of him and then that he knows she would not fire at his kids.

Further, there has been testimony that in the past, he faked an injury to himself in order to substantiate claims he made to the police. And told his sons to lie to back him up.

I understand why you don't find Alexander to be credible.

But why do you find Gray--proven to lie under oath--to be credible?
 
Dunn was convicted. With Zimmerman the jury determined that it was a reasonable fear on account of Trayvon giving him whoop-ass at the time of shooting.
Non. You are wrong. The reason why the Jury did not render a guilty verdict on any of the charges is because the Prosecution failed to remove reasonable doubt. Again and again and so often mentioned in the variety of threads dedicated to the Zimmerman case, there was NO visual witness as to who attacked who in that alley. It remains unknown who initiated a physical attack on who. Stop propagating the same old claim portraying Martin as the party who initiated an attack on Zimmerman as if there had been any visual witness to such claim.


Note that Marissa had no injuries that day which would suggest he attacked her.
As if injuries were a necessity to prove that one party used threats and intimidation while attempting to block the party who is trying to leave. Of course if you pursue to dismiss Rico's volatile behavior as he got up from that table where they just had breakfast, to then bang on the bathroom door(to the point of damaging it) while she was using the restroom, yelling at her and demanding she comes out to "talk with him" to then physically block her as she was attempting to leave as not being a threatening and abusive behavior, I am wasting my time.

But a pursued dismissal of the above on your part would confirm the concerns I communicated earlier. I have no sympathy for anyone who would demand there be injuries to confirm that Marissa was subjected to an abusive behavior which could only convey a threat to her welfare. And further placed her on the same footing with an individual documented to having had a history of abuse on his ex partners, to include Marissa.



She tried. The garage was locked/jammed.
So she says. But then she is good at inventing self-serving lies.
When she attacked Grey later she first lied about not being there at all. Then she lied about him attacking her. Then she feigned a medical emergency and injured herself to make it look as if he attacked her.
So forgive me if I do not trust her on the state of the door.
Why do you trust Rico Gray in his claiming now that he never abused any woman he had a relationship with? FYI, Marissa's visit to the hospital when he had attacked her using physical violence on her while she was pregnant with their daughter, it will be demonstrated in her medical records. That incident is what led to her filing a RO against Rico. Are you actually buying his claim now that he never abused any of his ex partners?

And do not try to play the card with me of "well those women who are now testifying against him are also liars because they lied before saying he did not abuse them" because you would be playing that card with someone who dumped on you reliably sourced information regarding why DV victims are so hesitant to expose their abuser. Documentation I noticed you never addressed since I asked you questions to clarify 2 comments you had made :

As a memory refresher :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...tence-overturned&p=77473&viewfull=1#post77473
 
Dunn was convicted. With Zimmerman the jury determined that it was a reasonable fear on account of Trayvon giving him whoop-ass at the time of shooting.
Note that Marissa had no injuries that day which would suggest he attacked her.


So she says. But then she is good at inventing self-serving lies.
When she attacked Grey later she first lied about not being there at all. Then she lied about him attacking her. Then she feigned a medical emergency and injured herself to make it look as if he attacked her.
So forgive me if I do not trust her on the state of the door.

By the way, do you still believe that incident never happened and was just invented by MRAs in order to discredit her?


Why do you find Gray to be a credible witness? He lied uner oath--either during his deposition or at trial: at least one of those accounts must be a lie.

Further, in his 911 call, he is reframing the narrative during the call, first saying that she fired on front of him and then that he knows she would not fire at his kids.

Further, there has been testimony that in the past, he faked an injury to himself in order to substantiate claims he made to the police. And told his sons to lie to back him up.

I understand why you don't find Alexander to be credible.

But why do you find Gray--proven to lie under oath--to be credible?

The problem is what happens when you believe that both should be in jail? Both have issues.

So I'm curious in a relationship where both parties escalate things, do we let them fight it out or put both people in jail?
 
Dunn was convicted. With Zimmerman the jury determined that it was a reasonable fear on account of Trayvon giving him whoop-ass at the time of shooting.
Note that Marissa had no injuries that day which would suggest he attacked her.


So she says. But then she is good at inventing self-serving lies.
When she attacked Grey later she first lied about not being there at all. Then she lied about him attacking her. Then she feigned a medical emergency and injured herself to make it look as if he attacked her.
So forgive me if I do not trust her on the state of the door.

By the way, do you still believe that incident never happened and was just invented by MRAs in order to discredit her?


Why do you find Gray to be a credible witness? He lied uner oath--either during his deposition or at trial: at least one of those accounts must be a lie.

Further, in his 911 call, he is reframing the narrative during the call, first saying that she fired on front of him and then that he knows she would not fire at his kids.

Further, there has been testimony that in the past, he faked an injury to himself in order to substantiate claims he made to the police. And told his sons to lie to back him up.

I understand why you don't find Alexander to be credible.

But why do you find Gray--proven to lie under oath--to be credible?
Bros don't lie.
 
Why do you find Gray to be a credible witness? He lied uner oath--either during his deposition or at trial: at least one of those accounts must be a lie.

Further, in his 911 call, he is reframing the narrative during the call, first saying that she fired on front of him and then that he knows she would not fire at his kids.

Further, there has been testimony that in the past, he faked an injury to himself in order to substantiate claims he made to the police. And told his sons to lie to back him up.

I understand why you don't find Alexander to be credible.

But why do you find Gray--proven to lie under oath--to be credible?

The problem is what happens when you believe that both should be in jail? Both have issues.

So I'm curious in a relationship where both parties escalate things, do we let them fight it out or put both people in jail?

Putting people in jail for having issues would be off the wall. Asinine laws decreeing firing a gun on a par with manslaughter or murder begs questioning the mental stability of those who created them.
 
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