MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[Toni]

From here. We spend a little more than countries like France, Germany and even Canada.

France is literally in flames because years of austerity budgeting have gutted their schools...

Sure... that's why they're in flames... yup. It's 100% only current students that are looting and burning and destroying the place, nobody at all has hopped on and taken advantage of the initial protest to cause much bigger problems.

Which is something happy and secure people are known to do…

 

[Emily Lake]

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that the skills and perspectives acquired getting a degree in math don't translate into medicine. Similarly, the skills and perspectives acquired in a computer science degree don't translate to electrical engineering. Also pretty sure that the skills and perspectives acquired in an economics degree don't translate to fiction writing.

 

[Emily Lake]

From here. We spend a little more than countries like France, Germany and even Canada.

France is literally in flames because years of austerity budgeting have gutted their schools...

Sure... that's why they're in flames... yup. It's 100% only current students that are looting and burning and destroying the place, nobody at all has hopped on and taken advantage of the initial protest to cause much bigger problems.

I didn't say they weren't. Merely commenting on the absurdity of claiming that education is being adequately supported in either nation at present.

It seemed rather implied by your statement that "France is literally in flames because years of austerity budgeting have gutted their schools..."

 

[Emily Lake]

Unfortunately, in university, art classes tended to be limited to art majors and I was a biology major so.......

You did not have free electives at your university?

Everyone wants to take art as an elective. My school limited art classes to those with at least a declared minor.

I was a math major with an art minor.

Well not everyone wants to take art as an elective.

It wasn't intended as a literal "everyone". Just that without some kind of limitations put in place, the demand is much higher than the supply.

I would have loved to do that but it was not possible for me to do. At the first university I attended, I simply did not have availability in my schedule—lab stage up 4 block hrs of time which becomes very restrictive. At the school where I graduated, they only allowed declared art majors to take art classes. I thought it was cutting their nose off to spite their face but it was a very small department.

Lucky you to get to do art!

I had to declare it a minor in order to do so. It's the only reason I declared it a minor, and meeting the course requirements made for some weirdly busy years.

I can only do what I picked up on my own, my high school art teacher being very close to useless. He did get me into Saturday art classes at an art school in a program fur high schoolers but I had to drop it after my parents learned that there were live models mostly nude. I’m still not sure which my father found more shocking: the model only wearing a jock strap or me knowing what one was. Being the times that it was I realized that was what a jock strap was but I had never actually seen one. I was embarrassed for about 30 seconds but then just became engrossed in the work.

Yeah, the life drawing classes were... interesting. We had a very wide variety of models - tall, short, thin, fat, young, old, etc. The only one that was really awkward was one poor young man who dozed off... and well... biology is a thing that happens.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

WTF ?No, I’m not limiting to the last sentence.

Fill in the blanks for me...

What blanks?

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

I realize you think that is an axiom, but is doesn’t address what I wrote at all.

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Hence tying a degree to market necessity is a rather a narrow focus.

Narrow and inappropriate…

Sure. Horribly inappropriate to incentivize skills we need as a society, and to refrain from incentivizing skills we don't need.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

Emily! Anytime I stop by this forum and see a big number of responses, I know you’ve been by.

But once again:

O reason not the need! Our basest beggars
Are in the poorest things superfluous
Allow not nature more than nature’s basest needs
Man’s life is cheap as beasts.

You should have taken some lit classes, Emily.

And you should have taken some critical thinking classes.

 

[laughing dog]

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that the skills and perspectives acquired getting a degree in math don't translate into medicine. Similarly, the skills and perspectives acquired in a computer science degree don't translate to electrical engineering. Also pretty sure that the skills and perspectives acquired in an economics degree don't translate to fiction writing.

Lots of people feel economics is a form of fiction writing!

But I didn’t say that skills in a specific area translate into every area. Computer science requires very systematic thinking to identify problems and obtain solutions. Seems to me those are pretty useful skills in many areas.

 

[Toni]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

Emily! Anytime I stop by this forum and see a big number of responses, I know you’ve been by.

But once again:

O reason not the need! Our basest beggars
Are in the poorest things superfluous
Allow not nature more than nature’s basest needs
Man’s life is cheap as beasts.

You should have taken some lit classes, Emily.

And you should have taken some critical thinking classes.

I get what you took from the 'critical thinking' part but you seem to have de-emphasized the thinking and cling to critical with both hands and feet and teeth.

It does not take much thought or foresight --but apparently more than you are willing to invest or acknowledge---to realize that we do not know TODAY what jobs will be necessary or valued in the future. Ask anybody whose job is threatened by AI (sorry if that hit too close--sincerely. )

We need teachers at all levels who are more than competent but who have a deep and thorough knowledge of their particular area and as important--a passion for it as well. Not merely competent. Excellent. That happens when people who really really want to teach pursue that career--despite knowing that it will not provide big salaries and in fact, may make it impossible to pay back student loans.

We need farmers and ranchers, yes! And we need them to be able to earn a living by farming as a full time job not just the hobby/way of life they support by working other jobs to keep the wolves/bankers from the doors.

I would encourage anyone who wishes to become a plumber and who has the ability and desire to do the work to pursue that career. I'm not too troubled by plumbers not making a living. Same thing re: electricians, painters, drywall hangers, carpenters, etc. ALL of the trades. BUT: they also need to know that this is a career that will be unlikely to be viable for them when they are 60+ It's very hard on bodies.

Do we need people who love and study and really really really deeply know Russian literature? Why not? We need more people to read literature because it helps people understand people, to develop empathy and a deep appreciation for and understanding of the human condition. And we need people who help other people to understand the nuances of literature, poetry, expository writing, etc.

 

[Emily Lake]

First of all: physician salaries are being conflated by some with fees for service.

Only by you. Nobody else has conflated them. You have "corrected" me a few times for something I never said, and which I have clarified multiple times. So as far as I can see, you're the only person conflating service fees with salaries.

I dunno. AFAIK, you are harping on enormous fees charged by physicians without taking into account exactly what those fees pay for, aside from physician’s salary.

I’m sorry if I missed the part where you acknowledged that $100 fir a 15 minute office visit is not $100 into the physician’s bank account.

Holy cow. You didn't miss any of it, you responded to them!

Post in thread 'MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My'

Oct 17, 2026

What is this thread about?

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've...

• Emily Lake

Post in thread 'MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My'

Oct 18, 2026

What is this thread about?

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all...

• Emily Lake

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

It’s weird to me. I see you and Emily as being very anti-government telling people what they can and cannot do to the extent possible but here you both are, trying to argue that the government t has any business at all telling people what they should or cannot study. You’re basically arguing for government control in a way that sounds a lot like communism.

This is a false representation of my argument. And I'm pretty sure you are aware that it's a false representation.

But your argument sure loses a lot of oomph when you try to say "I see you being very anti-government control, but here you are arguing that the government should be prudent in how it spends tax dollars and should only fund higher ed in fields that meet a clear societal need".

It doesn’t seem false to me. Most students I have known are aware of the income potential goal for the degrees they are pursuing. The ones I think are deluded are the poor schmucks pursuing ‘business’ majors, at the behest of they’re parents who think the key to a good life is a suit and tie being tied behind a desk.

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that you see absolutely no difference whatsoever between:

A) The government should tell students what they can and cannot study (your framing)
and
B) The government should use tax-payer funding to incentivize fields that society needs, rather than those that we don't (my position)

 

[Toni]

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that the skills and perspectives acquired getting a degree in math don't translate into medicine. Similarly, the skills and perspectives acquired in a computer science degree don't translate to electrical engineering. Also pretty sure that the skills and perspectives acquired in an economics degree don't translate to fiction writing.

Well, you'd be wrong. People who pursue undergrad degrees in mathematics and literature also apply to and are accepted to and graduate from medical school. What is more rare is for someone who loves math enough to major in it to be also interested in biology and psychology necessary in medical school. Not impossible but not very common. Computer science degrees (do they still have those? Serious question) have many different applications. Plenty of people with education, training and expertise in one area do write fiction and some do it quite well.

Andrzej Sapkowski is a Polish fantasy writer, essayist, translator and a trained economist. He is best known for his six-volume series of books The Witcher. Anthony Trollope was a postal clerk who hated his job and became a very successful writer who wrote 47 novels. Isaac Asimov was a biochemist. And so on.....

 

[Toni]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

It’s weird to me. I see you and Emily as being very anti-government telling people what they can and cannot do to the extent possible but here you both are, trying to argue that the government t has any business at all telling people what they should or cannot study. You’re basically arguing for government control in a way that sounds a lot like communism.

This is a false representation of my argument. And I'm pretty sure you are aware that it's a false representation.

But your argument sure loses a lot of oomph when you try to say "I see you being very anti-government control, but here you are arguing that the government should be prudent in how it spends tax dollars and should only fund higher ed in fields that meet a clear societal need".

It doesn’t seem false to me. Most students I have known are aware of the income potential goal for the degrees they are pursuing. The ones I think are deluded are the poor schmucks pursuing ‘business’ majors, at the behest of they’re parents who think the key to a good life is a suit and tie being tied behind a desk.

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that you see absolutely no difference whatsoever between:

A) The government should tell students what they can and cannot study (your framing)
and
B) The government should use tax-payer funding to incentivize fields that society needs, rather than those that we don't (my position)

In practice: no.

There are people who grow up in families with greater means who can afford to pursue whatever intellectual interests they choose. But most people are less fortunate and must settle on an area of interest to them that will also afford them the ability to earn a living, hopefully also incorporating some of what most interests them.

But they should NOT be burdened by student loans.

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

WTF ?No, I’m not limiting to the last sentence.

Fill in the blanks for me...

What blanks?

I even provided bolds and colors. It sure looks like you were limiting it to the last sentence. You say you're not... while also claiming that race isn't mentioned, when it clearly and obviously was... in everything except the last sentence - you know, the one you directed attention to?

Toni said she's "aware of why some white people prefer all white instructors"..."Mostly from their students."
DErec said "so white people bad"
You said that was a strawman, and not to get in a huff because the previous sentence didn't mention race

The previous sentence was "Mostly from their students". And sure, that specific sentence didn't mention race. But the first sentence did. So it doesn't seem like a strawman to me. And I'm baffled as to why you want to pretend that Toni didn't strongly insinuate that white people are racists, therefore bad.

So either I'm missing something or you are.

 

[Emily Lake]

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that the skills and perspectives acquired getting a degree in math don't translate into medicine. Similarly, the skills and perspectives acquired in a computer science degree don't translate to electrical engineering. Also pretty sure that the skills and perspectives acquired in an economics degree don't translate to fiction writing.

Lots of people feel economics is a form of fiction writing!

But I didn’t say that skills in a specific area translate into every area. Computer science requires very systematic thinking to identify problems and obtain solutions. Seems to me those are pretty useful skills in many areas.

Potentially, sure. But it really depends on whether those other areas need training and skills that a degree in computer science won't provide.

 

[laughing dog]

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that you see absolutely no difference whatsoever between:

A) The government should tell students what they can and cannot study (your framing)
and
B) The government should use tax-payer funding to incentivize fields that society needs, rather than those that we don't (my position)

That is a bit over-simplified because clearly giving incentives for fields you feel society needs, you are making disincentives for fields you feel society does not need. While it is not a direct diktat, it is fairly close to A.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

WTF ?No, I’m not limiting to the last sentence.

Fill in the blanks for me...

What blanks?

I even provided bolds and colors. It sure looks like you were limiting it to the last sentence. You say you're not... while also claiming that race isn't mentioned, when it clearly and obviously was... in everything except the last sentence - you know, the one you directed attention to?

You need to read more carefully. The "previous sentence" refers to green sentence (you know, the one right before the purple one). There is no mention of race in the green sentence.

 

[laughing dog]

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that the skills and perspectives acquired getting a degree in math don't translate into medicine. Similarly, the skills and perspectives acquired in a computer science degree don't translate to electrical engineering. Also pretty sure that the skills and perspectives acquired in an economics degree don't translate to fiction writing.

Lots of people feel economics is a form of fiction writing!

But I didn’t say that skills in a specific area translate into every area. Computer science requires very systematic thinking to identify problems and obtain solutions. Seems to me those are pretty useful skills in many areas.

Potentially, sure. But it really depends on whether those other areas need training and skills that a degree in computer science won't provide.

So? Moving from one field to another usually requires some additional knowledge or skill.

 

[Emily Lake]

I get what you took from the 'critical thinking' part but you seem to have de-emphasized the thinking and cling to critical with both hands and feet and teeth.

Oooh, burn. I hope you're proud of yourself for that one. Zingers are just the height of intelligent discourse, right?

It does not take much thought or foresight --but apparently more than you are willing to invest or acknowledge---

Oooh, keep them coming, you're on a roll! Insulting me must be really satisfying for you. Go on then, vent your spleen - it's easier than exercising your brain.

to realize that we do not know TODAY what jobs will be necessary or valued in the future. Ask anybody whose job is threatened by AI (sorry if that hit too close--sincerely. )

Holy cow. I don't expect it to be perfect, but I bet we can make a pretty decent guess. Is it sometimes going to miss the mark? Sure. And you know what happens when the needs change? So do the incentives.

And as I've pointed out and you agreed there are some staple fields that we're always going to need. It seems unlikely that we're going to end up with a glut of those fields, but hey if we somehow end up with a ton of well-trained plumbers and no more plumbing, then we shift the incentives to something else.

We need teachers at all levels who are more than competent but who have a deep and thorough knowledge of their particular area and as important--a passion for it as well. Not merely competent. Excellent. That happens when people who really really want to teach pursue that career--despite knowing that it will not provide big salaries and in fact, may make it impossible to pay back student loans.

I actually disagree with you here. I mean, I get that having teachers who are passionate about a subject is nice for the teacher... but grade schools need teachers who are competent to teach a wide range of subjects. And there are a lot of teachers out there right now who aren't particularly competent when it comes to teaching young children to read and write and do basic math and how to get along with other people and all the rest of the things that grade school kids need to learn.

Passion is something for college teachers. Maybe some high school teachers. If a high school PE teacher is super passionate about fitness, that's fine. But if that PE teacher also teaches geometry, they damned well better be competent at geometry.

We need farmers and ranchers, yes! And we need them to be able to earn a living by farming as a full time job not just the hobby/way of life they support by working other jobs to keep the wolves/bankers from the doors.

I would encourage anyone who wishes to become a plumber and who has the ability and desire to do the work to pursue that career. I'm not too troubled by plumbers not making a living. Same thing re: electricians, painters, drywall hangers, carpenters, etc. ALL of the trades. BUT: they also need to know that this is a career that will be unlikely to be viable for them when they are 60+ It's very hard on bodies.

Do we need people who love and study and really really really deeply know Russian literature? Why not? We need more people to read literature because it helps people understand people, to develop empathy and a deep appreciation for and understanding of the human condition. And we need people who help other people to understand the nuances of literature, poetry, expository writing, etc.

Needing people to read literature does not require that those people get a degree in literature.

We need at least some teachers who are super into literature. We don't need a ton of them though, and it's not a field where we're desperately lacking knowledge. We need teachers in elementary, and middle school, and high school who are competent at teaching reading, and who encourage reading. We need teachers who supply a variety of books in their classes for their students to study to learn to love reading.

None of that requires that we have a massive supply of eastern lithuanian literature doctorates.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Genuine question here: Why do you seem to think that appreciating literature requires a degree?

 

[Emily Lake]

In practice: no.

There are people who grow up in families with greater means who can afford to pursue whatever intellectual interests they choose. But most people are less fortunate and must settle on an area of interest to them that will also afford them the ability to earn a living, hopefully also incorporating some of what most interests them.

But they should NOT be burdened by student loans.

I fundamentally disagree that something not being free means that thing is not available.

If you want to make higher education free (which is not free, it's just paid for by other people's money), then we need to have significantly higher entry standards for all fields.

You seem entirely blind to the reality that if all of higher ed is free, then the volume of people who pursue intellectual interests that will not earn them a living will increase. For all of your talk of understanding the human condition, I'm not sure you actually understand humans.