Moved Medical school admissions and race - was: VP pick

[Derec]

...says the guy who flipped out when Trayvon Martin's mother called him her child.

No, I never "flipped out". I was just criticizing those on the old forum who insisted a 17 year old is a "child", ignoring the marked developmental differences between actual children and older teenagers.

 

[Derec]

Girl is commonly used between friends who are women. In other people's mouths, it is demeaning and insulting and intended as such.

More generally, it is used in more informal contexts.

 

[Toni]

Girl is commonly used between friends who are women. In other people's mouths, it is demeaning and insulting and intended as such.

More generally, it is used in more informal contexts.

Yes, informally women will refer to each other as girl or girls. Sometimes heterosexual couples will talk about what the girls are going to do or what the boys are going to do. It’s informal and between friends/family. Outside of that, it’s insulting and demeaning.

 

[laughing dog]

...says the guy who flipped out when Trayvon Martin's mother called him her child.

No, I never "flipped out". I was just criticizing those on the old forum who insisted a 17 year old is a "child", ignoring the marked developmental differences between actual children and older teenagers.

Not at all like the developmental differences between girls and women.

BTW, 17 year okds are actual children.

 

[Derec]

The goal of medical schools is not to make you feel warm and fuzzy about a delusional belief that the USA is or ever has been anything resembling a meritocracy.

Just because US has not been a perfect meritocracy does not mean we should discount the idea of merit and embrace race-based admissions.

They exist to ensure that the public is being optimally served by medical professionals, and that means the whole public.

They exist to train physicians. And the best way to ensure that "the whole public" is served by competent medical professionals is not to have different standards by race.

Bumfuck USA and poor areas of almost all cities have a dangerous shortage of doctors that is costing health and lives.

Yes, but I do not see how that is addressed by admitting black and Hispanic students with significantly lower grades and scores compared with white and Asian students. It could be addressed by better funding rural and otherwise underserved health centers.
This is not in a rural area, but in Atlanta, but it is in a more downmarket area of Atlanta:

A year after Wellstar Atlanta closes, area hospitals struggle to pick up the pieces

No matter how many URMs you admit to medical schools, they cannot work in closed hospitals and clinics. On the other hand, if these centers are open not just URMs will work there.
Let's say, as a greatly simplified model, that there are 100 physicians finishing their residency and 40 openings in Ye Olde Prestigious University Hospital, 30 openings in Inner City Hospital and 30 in Bumfuck County Medical Center.

One would assume most doctors, regardless of race, would gravitate toward the University Hospital. But there are only so many positions, the rest of them will filter to the less desirable locations regardless of their skin color.

And it is yet another of the countless ways that blacks are fucked by the still continuing long term impact of centuries of violent oppression, not just informally, but written into law up through most of the 20th century, into the lifetimes everyone over 60 and the parents or grandparents of almost every American alive today.

Thing that were wrong back then do not justify blatant racial discrimination today.

If allowing more blacks into med school with slightly lower admission scores increases doctors in those underserved areas, then it is not only okay, by an ethical requirement of med schools to do so.

First of all, they have much lower scores and grades, not "slightly lower". Second, doctors do not have to be URM to work in underserved areas.

In addition, there is the fact supported by strong evidence (see my recent posts) that black doctors in particular are able to provide superior medical care to black patients from infancy through end of life. And black doctors are massively under-represented (far more than white doctors). So, that also justifies admitting black students with slightly lower scores.

The concern I have with this is for one that it advocates for de facto segregation of medicine - i.e. that black patients should only be seen by black doctors. Also, a lot of underserved areas are rural and predominately white, which does not
Third, there is an ideological commitment to racial preferences on the left, and advocacy of racial preferences in medicine is just one part of it. As such, any "evidence" pushed by those ideologues should be taken with a metric ton of salt.

Finally, note that the prior stats I presented about your original data shows that white people are being admitted at the expense of Asian students. That is, if your going to to use the same data to claim blacks are admitted at the expense of whites and Asians.

The stats for white students are only slightly lower than Asian students. So-called URMs are significantly lower.
If med schools moved to race invariant admissions, number of Asian students would certainly rise, but I think that the number of white students would rise too, as their states are much higher than URMs who are being preferentially admitted.

 

[Derec]

Not at all like the developmental differences between girls and women.

As I said, the word "girl" is commonly used in the English language for adult women, not just female children.

BTW, 17 year okds are actual children.

No, they are minors, but not children. An 18 year old adult like Michael Brown is much closer to a 17 year old teenager like Trayvon or a 16 year old teenager like Myon Burrell than either are to an actual child, like say 11 year old Tyesha Edwards (who was murdered by Myon Burrell).
This idea that there is some binary switch that flips on one's 18th birthday is quite insane. Human development does not work like that.

 

[Derec]

Yes, informally women will refer to each other as girl or girls. Sometimes heterosexual couples will talk about what the girls are going to do or what the boys are going to do. It’s informal and between friends/family. Outside of that, it’s insulting and demeaning.

A discussion forum is an informal setting.

 

[Derec]

So, you think the Right doesn’t police language? Or only in “not weird” ways?

The right does its fair share of that, but I maintain that the Left is weirder about it. Like people getting their panties in a twist over the word "girl".

Or take these weird nu-words like "latinx" they keep pushing on us.

Or take this guide by Sanford that they took down after ridicule.

The 13-page guide contained more than 150 words and phrases organized into 10 categories of harmful language: ableist, ageism, colonialism, culturally appropriative, gender-based, imprecise language, institutionalized racism, person-first, and violent words and phrases. Words and phrases such as “brave,” “seminal,” “American,” “take a shot at,” “no can do” and “submit” were deemed harmful.
“Brave,” according to the guide, was deemed harmful for perpetuating stereotypes of the “noble courageous savage.” (The guide did not recommend a replacement for this word.) Instead of “seminal,” readers were encouraged to use “leading” or “groundbreaking,” so as not to reinforce male-dominated language. Instead of “American,” the guide recommended “U.S. citizen,” to avoid insinuating that the U.S. dominates the Americas. The guide also recommended that “give it a go” take the place of “take a shot at” to avoid violent imagery. “No can do,” per the guide, should be replaced by “I can’t do it,” since the former originated from stereotypes that mocked nonnative English speakers. The guide recommended replacing “submit” with “process,” as the latter “can imply allowing others to have power over you.”

You don't think that's weird?

 

[laughing dog]

Not at all like the developmental differences between girls and women.

As I said, the word "girl" is commonly used in the English language for adult women, not just female children.

BTW, 17 year okds are actual children.

No, they are minors, but not children. An 18 year old adult is much closer to a 17 year old teenager like Trayvon than either are to a child of say 10.
This idea that there is some binary switch that flips on one's 18th birthday is quite insane. Human development does not work like that.

The word “child” in the English language is commonly used for minors, especially in informal settings. Your double standard is glaring.

 

[Toni]

Yes, informally women will refer to each other as girl or girls. Sometimes heterosexual couples will talk about what the girls are going to do or what the boys are going to do. It’s informal and between friends/family. Outside of that, it’s insulting and demeaning.

A discussion forum is an informal setting.

It is. But it is not the same thing as sitting in your living room with your friend that you’ve known since you were both kids.

I’m almost certain I’m old enough to be your mom and I’m pretty sure you’d be insulted if I started referring to you as boy. However informal this forum.

 

[Derec]

I’m almost certain I’m old enough to be your mom and I’m pretty sure you’d be insulted if I started referring to you as boy. However informal this forum.

Depends on context I would say. Just like with girl. But I do not think only girls/women should be allowed to use the word "girl" as you implied upthread.

 

[Derec]

The word “child” in the English language is commonly used for minors, especially in informal settings. Your double standard is glaring.

The word "child" was used in context of these shootings to infantilize the teenagers. It serves the same purpose as media showing photos of them that are several years old.

 

[Rhea]

Let's say, as a greatly simplified model, that there are 100 physicians finishing their residency and 40 openings in Ye Olde Prestigious University Hospital, 30 openings in Inner City Hospital and 30 in Bumfuck County Medical Center.

This is what you think? REALLY? You need to wake up and look around at the world outside of yur bubble.

In realityland, there at 5 openings at Ye Olde, and 100 at Inner City and 100 East Bumfuck County.
That’s what makes them underserved.

Do you not know what “under-served” means and how we get there? Do you not understand this part? Maybe we are patiently providing the wrong information to you. Maybe you need a maths discussion.

One would assume most doctors, regardless of race, would gravitate toward the University Hospital. But there are only so many positions, the rest of them will filter to the less desirable locations regardless of their skin color.

One should NOT assume that, as it is directly contradicted by the research that was already shown to you in this thread. That would make such an assumption stupid and wrong.

The research, shown to you already, which apparently you chose to not read or not remember because it didn’t fit your narrative, says that the biggest factor in retention of doctors in Inner City and East Bumfuck County, is personal passion to serve there and personal connection to serve the region/culture. Without that, people leave as soon as they can, and the region becomes… wait for it… Under-Served.


So, to sum up, you’ve been given all the information you need to understand this issue, and you still don’t understand it. We can’t be certain whether that is willful or isn’t. But nevertheless, here we are.

 

[laughing dog]

The word “child” in the English language is commonly used for minors, especially in informal settings. Your double standard is glaring.

The word "child" was used in context of these shootings to infantilize the teenagers. It serves the same purpose as media showing photos of them that are several years old.

You mean like you infantilizing women by calling them girls?
But your hypocritical defense highlights the misogyny in your position.

 

[Toni]

I’m almost certain I’m old enough to be your mom and I’m pretty sure you’d be insulted if I started referring to you as boy. However informal this forum.

Depends on context I would say. Just like with girl. But I do not think only girls/women should be allowed to use the word "girl" as you implied upthread.

Context IS everything. Between friends is much different than between strangers.

I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard a man refer to another man as boy when it was not meant to show dominance. Possible exception: An older man referring to his grown sons.

 

[Derec]

There at 5 openings at Ye Olde, and 100 at Inner City and 100 East Bumfuck County.
That’s what makes them underserved.

Is that really the case? I doubt it. Wellstar on Boulevard has been closed for 2 years, they have 0 openings. Same with the closed rural centers.
In any case, my point was that available positions will be filled even if they are not somebody's first choice. If they can't all be filled, increase the number of residencies so there is more supply of physicians. But there is no need to discriminate by race and hope that URMs will gravitate toward less desirable locations. URMs are humans just like ORMs - and they prefer more desirable positions if they can get them.

Do you not know what “under-served” means and how we get there? Do you not undersgtand this part? Maybe we arfe providing the wrong information to you.

I do understand what it means. But it has to do with funding and closing of medical centers. Not because whites and Asians refuse to work there. Example: Colquitt County Medical Center

One should NOT assume that, as it is directly contradicted by the research that was already shown to you in this thread. That would make such an assumption stupid and wrong.

It's a pretty safe assumption that if a physician cannot find work in their desired location they will apply more broadly. Even if working in Colquitt County or at Grady is not their first choice. What research specifically contradicts that?

The research, shown to you already, which apparently you chose to not read or not remember because it didn’t fit your narrative, says that the biggest factor in retention of doctors in Inner City and East Bumfuck County, is personal passion to serve there and personal connection to serve the region/culture. Without that, people leave as soon as they can, and the region becomes… wait for it… Under-Served.

And why should race be used as a proxy for "personal passion"? Do black students really have more "personal passion" to work in Bumfuck County?

So, to sum up, you’ve been given all the information you need to understand this issue, and you still don’t understand it. We can’t be certain whether that is willful or isn’t. But nevertheless, here we are.

Same for you.

 

[Derec]

I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard a man refer to another man as boy when it was not meant to show dominance.

There is even a TV series called "The Boys".

 

[Derec]

Especially not young Black adults.

Filing motion to end this particular fruitless derail.

 

[Derec]

Whites are only under-represented because of the over-representation of Asians, while Blacks and Hispanics are even more under-represented.

No. Whites are under-represented because blacks and Hispanics are given huge amounts of racial preferences. I.e. they are overrepresented relative to their stats.

Whites are actually over-represented relative to Blacks and Hispanics. There are 4.6 times as many whites compared to blacks in the US, but there are 5.2 times as many whites in med school. Similarly, there are 3.07 times as many whites as Hispanics in the US, but 6.4 times as many whites in med school.

I reject this idea that makeup of medical schools should reflect the society.
Rather, people should be treated as individuals, with no discrimination for or against somebody based on their race.

And Toni's reference to the unqualified whites is because their average MCAT CPBS score is lower than Asians, and that difference is in fact highly statistically significant at p < .0001.

The scores of white students are slightly lower than the score of Asians. But the scores of URM students are significantly lower.
If whites are "unqualified" then blacks and other URMs are doubly so.

 

[bilby]

"Girl" is commonly used in the English language for young adult women.

It is wrong to do so, disrespectful, lacking respect and dignity.

The Left just loves to police language in most weird of ways ...

It's not about policing language; It's about calling out disrespect.

The word "Girl" is not a problem - until it is used disrespectfully, towards someone who has done nothing to earn our derision.

At which point, it identifies the user as being an arsehole. And his friends will, if they care, point out that he shouldn't use language that way, if he is in any way concerned about his reputation in the wider world.