Michael Brown 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Derec]

Quibble, quibble, quibble, and pretending to be stupid so you can post a picture of a fire and act like that's the candlelight vigil I mentioned. Nothing to see here.

No, I am not pretending that the QT arson is the "candlelight vigil" you mentioned. I was juxtaposing the two things to highlight the ridiculousness of thinking that the heavy police presence was because of peaceful candlelight vigils and not because of looting, rioting and arson that was present in Ferguson from the beginning of the protests.

White militiamen roam Ferguson with rifles while unarmed black men are arrested because they might be armed

A planned and announced march vs. people suspected of having illegal weapons.

Police harassing and gassing protesters after the situation had calmed, inciting violence and undermining efforts to restore order

Note that this was in the midst of very heavy rioting. You should not blame police, but the rioters, arsonists and looters.

Ferguson Prosecutor McCulloch admits he knew Sandra "Witness #40" McElroy was lying before he had her testify under oath to the Grand Jury

She is one of many witnesses. The pro-Michael Brown faction is holding on to McElroy for dear life. Look at the totality of both witness statements and physical evidence, that for example proves that Brown was advancing after being shot.

Did you read the DOJ report? If you have, perhaps you understand why I think your "I got a stupid fine once, should I go out and torch a Quiktrip?" comment is beyond moronic.

Not in its entirety and more than two years ago. If I remember correctly, they faulted Ferguson for using fines to raise revenue (a very common practice btw) and for issuing arrest warrants for people who ignored tickets (an even more common practice). The first is a result of a balance between direct taxation and using other means to raise revenue. If Ferguson residents do not want fines used to fund their city's government they can vote in council members who will raise taxes. In any case, this is a widespread practice and I fail to see why it is seen as problematic iff it affects mostly black people.
As to the second thing, this is pure personal responsibility. You can't just ignore a ticket and expect no consequences. When you get a ticket, do you pay it or fight it? Or do you just ignore and and then cry "racism" when the court issues a warrant for failure to appear?

I don't know why you want me to think you're incapable of understanding the effect that wide spread violations of civil rights and corruption of the justice system have on communities like of Ferguson, but I'm not buying it.

If people in Ferguson feel that their civil rights have been violated by the local government, why didn't they elect a different one a long time ago?

You get angry when you think the civil rights of white men have been ignored. You're perfectly capable of understanding the anger people feel when the civil rights of citizens are denied.

I do but I do not condone rioting and arson in those cases either.

 

[laughing dog]

I am aware that after the Ferguson riots the left tried to justify them by for example talking about bench warrants for failure to appear. For example:
Ferguson an apartheid police state: 21,000 residents have a staggering 16,000 open arrest warrants
Yes, 16k warrants in a city of 21k is a lot. But these are results of people getting tickets and ignoring them, neither fighting them nor paying them. If my lily-white self ignored a ticket, I'd have a warrant issued as well. It's a question of personal responsibility, not some sort of conspiracy against black people. And note also that local ordinances are made by the city and county governments and people of Ferguson can vote for both. And while I find revenue-motivated ticketing distasteful in general, it is much, much fairer to impose fines largely on local people who both have a say in local government and benefit from the funds raised. I think the "speedersfundus" locales which mostly rely on fines on passing motorists and out-of-towners that are even more morally reprehensible.

Your response (which confuses explanation with justification) simply provided evidence that supports my observation that "Rational and disinterested adults can distinguish between and explanation and an excuse".

Well DeRay, a prominent #BLM leader, is explicitly condoning the looting.
And you, Arctish et al are at the very least showing understanding for rioting.

That is because rational and disinterested adults can distinguish between and explanation and an excuse.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't think that Derec is capable of---or at least willing to consider---black people (brown people, Muslim people, female people, and so on but especially black men) as fully human beings. As people. At least not on equal level as he sees himself.

Utter unadulterated bullshit. It is precisely because I seem them as "fully human beings ... on equal level" as myself that I do not engage in excuses for behavior such as Ferguson (and Baltimore and Milwaukee and Charlotte and LA and ...) riots. What you and Arctish are doing is soft bigotry of low expectations and thus you are much closer to what you allege I am.

Your over-the-top rhetoric and persistent belittling of these "full human beings on an equal level with yourself" belies the claim in your response. You are only fooling yourself with such nonsense.

 

[Arctish]

I don't think that Derec is capable of---or at least willing to consider---black people (brown people, Muslim people, female people, and so on but especially black men) as fully human beings. As people. At least not on equal level as he sees himself.

Utter unadulterated bullshit. It is precisely because I seem them as "fully human beings ... on equal level" as myself that I do not engage in excuses for behavior such as Ferguson (and Baltimore and Milwaukee and Charlotte and LA and ...) riots. What you and Arctish are doing is soft bigotry of low expectations and thus you are much closer to what you allege I am.

Not at all.

I fully expect the people in my almost entirely white community would protest if they were subjected to the same violations of their civil rights as the citizens of Ferguson. In fact, I expect it would become a riot much sooner and the resulting violence would be much worse. People up here have a lot of guns and they know how to use them. We even have our own rightwing militia just itching for a fight, not to mention the 'live free or die' types homesteading in the woods.

I don't know if you expect blacks to be more subservient than whites, but you consistently argue they should be dealt with harshly when they're not.

 

[Arctish]

I am aware that after the Ferguson riots the left tried to justify them by for example talking about bench warrants for failure to appear. For example:
Ferguson an apartheid police state: 21,000 residents have a staggering 16,000 open arrest warrants
Yes, 16k warrants in a city of 21k is a lot. But these are results of people getting tickets and ignoring them, neither fighting them nor paying them. If my lily-white self ignored a ticket, I'd have a warrant issued as well. It's a question of personal responsibility, not some sort of conspiracy against black people. And note also that local ordinances are made by the city and county governments and people of Ferguson can vote for both. And while I find revenue-motivated ticketing distasteful in general, it is much, much fairer to impose fines largely on local people who both have a say in local government and benefit from the funds raised. I think the "speedersfundus" locales which mostly rely on fines on passing motorists and out-of-towners that are even more morally reprehensible.

So to forestall more of your ridiculous straw men, no one is condoning the rioting.

Well DeRay, a prominent #BLM leader, is explicitly condoning the looting.
And you, Arctish et al are at the very least showing understanding for rioting.

Perhaps it's because I read the DOJ report, and was interested enough in the subject to seek out information even before the report was released.

Let me know when you come across the accounts of people jailed when they showed up to pay their fines because some clerk somewhere changed their court date without notifying them.

 

[Arctish]

<snipped additional quibbling that does not refute anything I wrote in response to another1's question>

You get angry when you think the civil rights of white men have been ignored. You're perfectly capable of understanding the anger people feel when the civil rights of citizens are denied.

I do but I do not condone rioting and arson in those cases either.

I don't condone rioting, either. But when it happens I try to understand why so I can decide for myself if the underlying issue, or the police response to it, is something that should be changed. Sometimes the answer is 'yes', and sometimes it's 'no'.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am aware that after the Ferguson riots the left tried to justify them by for example talking about bench warrants for failure to appear. For example:
Ferguson an apartheid police state: 21,000 residents have a staggering 16,000 open arrest warrants
Yes, 16k warrants in a city of 21k is a lot. But these are results of people getting tickets and ignoring them, neither fighting them nor paying them. If my lily-white self ignored a ticket, I'd have a warrant issued as well. It's a question of personal responsibility, not some sort of conspiracy against black people. And note also that local ordinances are made by the city and county governments and people of Ferguson can vote for both. And while I find revenue-motivated ticketing distasteful in general, it is much, much fairer to impose fines largely on local people who both have a say in local government and benefit from the funds raised. I think the "speedersfundus" locales which mostly rely on fines on passing motorists and out-of-towners that are even more morally reprehensible.

While I do agree the speed traps are more onerous what was going on in Ferguson was bad. It was not a justification for the riots, though.

 

[another1]

Staying "up" on things is always a good idea.

The guy in the picture looks um. Isn't he beating on an old person? And stealing????

And people are mad because?

Because eyewitnesses like this guy say Brown had his hands up when Wilson shot him. Also, police in Ferguson had been the 'muscle' behind a community wide government shakedown that victimized citizens, especially the black ones, and the citizens were outraged by the apparent escalation of the abuse of authority. And then there was the cop car plowing through the memorial, the cops responding to a candlelight vigil in armored military vehicles, cops treating whites in combat gear and carrying assault weapons with respect and courtesy while unarmed blacks had guns pointed in their faces, the outreach by the State Police being undermined by local cops deliberately inflaming the situation again, the Prosecutor suborning perjury during the Grand Jury proceedings from a woman who lied about seeing Brown attack (she wasn't even there, a fact uncovered by the FBI when they interviewed her shortly after the shooting and known to prosecutors before the Grand Jury convened), the DOJ investigation that revealed chronic abuse of the justice system and a pattern of preying on the poor to raise revenue in Ferguson, and more.

Michael Brown's apparently needless death was the spark that set off the civil uprising, but the explosives in that powderkeg were the result of long-term police and government actions against the citizens they are supposed to serve. The people in Ferguson had plenty of reasons to be angry.

Hmm that makes sense then. But look at the guy. This is a small community I guess, right? Where this happened? Sorry for not being up on that. Well, the cop was wearing a cop uniform, and the robber was wearing robber's attire. I'm not surprised he was shot, as tragic as it is. We're judged and in some cases killed based on how we look. Material world and such.

Defacing a memorial is despicable, even for the police. But heh it happens. Why deface more stuff over the issue, and why make it an issue at all? Seems to make things worse when civilians get involved.

I'd probably be a lot madder if Michael Brown had aspirations. I may even protest, if the guy gave two shits about himself in the first place. Who did he want to be? Nobody. Seems that he wore failure all over his face. Poor little guy was a victim when you do all the math, but his photographs are questionable. A bullet would have caught him eventually in life. Sad it happened to be a cops. If another black man shot him (99% more likely), white people would have nothing to argue over.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that Derec is capable of---or at least willing to consider---black people (brown people, Muslim people, female people, and so on but especially black men) as fully human beings. As people. At least not on equal level as he sees himself.

Utter unadulterated bullshit. It is precisely because I seem them as "fully human beings ... on equal level" as myself that I do not engage in excuses for behavior such as Ferguson (and Baltimore and Milwaukee and Charlotte and LA and ...) riots. What you and Arctish are doing is soft bigotry of low expectations and thus you are much closer to what you allege I am.

No: that's what I do think.

As far as your current claims of seeing them as 'fully human beings on equal level' as yourself: You have years of posting history that demonstrate otherwise.

Now maybe you are a vastly different person IRL than you are on this board. I'd love to be surprised on that one. I don't think that will happen as in this 'rebuttal' post, you've already confessed to seeing yourself better than (some) other people

 

[Toni]

Utter unadulterated bullshit. It is precisely because I seem them as "fully human beings ... on equal level" as myself that I do not engage in excuses for behavior such as Ferguson (and Baltimore and Milwaukee and Charlotte and LA and ...) riots. What you and Arctish are doing is soft bigotry of low expectations and thus you are much closer to what you allege I am.

Not at all.

I fully expect the people in my almost entirely white community would protest if they were subjected to the same violations of their civil rights as the citizens of Ferguson. In fact, I expect it would become a riot much sooner and the resulting violence would be much worse. People up here have a lot of guns and they know how to use them. We even have our own rightwing militia just itching for a fight, not to mention the 'live free or die' types homesteading in the woods.

I don't know if you expect blacks to be more subservient than whites, but you consistently argue they should be dealt with harshly when they're not.

Or even when they are.

 

[Derec]

Your over-the-top rhetoric and persistent belittling of these "full human beings on an equal level with yourself" belies the claim in your response.

I never belittled anybody because of their skin color. Ridiculing people because of their behavior or views is very different.
You are not fooling anybody with your misrepresentations of my views.

 

[Arctish]

Staying "up" on things is always a good idea.



Because eyewitnesses like this guy say Brown had his hands up when Wilson shot him. Also, police in Ferguson had been the 'muscle' behind a community wide government shakedown that victimized citizens, especially the black ones, and the citizens were outraged by the apparent escalation of the abuse of authority. And then there was the cop car plowing through the memorial, the cops responding to a candlelight vigil in armored military vehicles, cops treating whites in combat gear and carrying assault weapons with respect and courtesy while unarmed blacks had guns pointed in their faces, the outreach by the State Police being undermined by local cops deliberately inflaming the situation again, the Prosecutor suborning perjury during the Grand Jury proceedings from a woman who lied about seeing Brown attack (she wasn't even there, a fact uncovered by the FBI when they interviewed her shortly after the shooting and known to prosecutors before the Grand Jury convened), the DOJ investigation that revealed chronic abuse of the justice system and a pattern of preying on the poor to raise revenue in Ferguson, and more.

Michael Brown's apparently needless death was the spark that set off the civil uprising, but the explosives in that powderkeg were the result of long-term police and government actions against the citizens they are supposed to serve. The people in Ferguson had plenty of reasons to be angry.

Hmm that makes sense then. But look at the guy. This is a small community I guess, right? Where this happened? Sorry for not being up on that. Well, the cop was wearing a cop uniform, and the robber was wearing robber's attire. I'm not surprised he was shot, as tragic as it is. We're judged and in some cases killed based on how we look. Material world and such.

Defacing a memorial is despicable, even for the police. But heh it happens. Why deface more stuff over the issue, and why make it an issue at all? Seems to make things worse when civilians get involved.

I'd probably be a lot madder if Michael Brown had aspirations. I may even protest, if the guy gave two shits about himself in the first place. Who did he want to be? Nobody. Seems that he wore failure all over his face. Poor little guy was a victim when you do all the math, but his photographs are questionable. A bullet would have caught him eventually in life. Sad it happened to be a cops. If another black man shot him (99% more likely), white people would have nothing to argue over.

It's a mistake to assume that everyone protesting knew Brown personally, or that if he'd been a stranger they wouldn't have been upset. The evidence strongly indicates otherwise.

People in Ferguson were angry due to their mistreatment by an abusive police department acting on behalf of a predatory justice system that was fleecing them in order to raise revenues. The violations of their civil rights was wide spread, ongoing, and blatant. Michael Brown being shot with his hands up (as reported by multiple eyewitnesses) was the last straw, not the only straw.

ETA: Your point about it being a small town is a good one. It was small enough for lots of people to have had personal encounters with Officer Wilson. I wonder what sort of reputation he had among the general public. Derec is good at digging up dirt. Perhaps he knows.

 

[Derec]

I fully expect the people in my almost entirely white community would protest if they were subjected to the same violations of their civil rights as the citizens of Ferguson.

Getting a warrant out for failure to appear is not a violation of civil rights. Neither is not being allowed to walk in the middle of the street.

In fact, I expect it would become a riot much sooner and the resulting violence would be much worse.

Why? You think white people are more violence prone?

People up here have a lot of guns and they know how to use them. We even have our own rightwing militia just itching for a fight, not to mention the 'live free or die' types homesteading in the woods.

You think there aren't many guns in the hood as well?

I don't know if you expect blacks to be more subservient than whites, but you consistently argue they should be dealt with harshly when they're not.

I do not expect anybody to be "subservient". I just don't think paying your ticket or fighting it rather than ignoring it is being "subservient". I do not think that walking on the sidewalk when a police officer tells you to is being "subservient" - in the bad sense of that word at least. I do not think refraining from rioting and looting is being "subservient".

I see that a lot with the discussions about race. If a black person is not "angry black man"/black power type they are dismissed as a subservient "Uncle Tom" or "house slave" by some. Even if they are Secretary of Fucking State or a Supreme Court Justice.

 

[Derec]

Perhaps it's because I read the DOJ report, and was interested enough in the subject to seek out information even before the report was released.

And all that was two years ago. So if you still remember it so well, why don't you give us the TL;DR version.

Let me know when you come across the accounts of people jailed when they showed up to pay their fines because some clerk somewhere changed their court date without notifying them.

Something similar happened to me years ago. The court (in DeKalb County, which is a majority black county with mostly black leadership) screwed up my name, resulting in a bench warrant being issued over a BS $35 fine. When I showed up to court to resolve it, the bailiff threatened to arrest me on the spot if I could not come up with $300 bail.

So what did I do?
a) decide that they did it for The Evulz because they are a bunch of racists and went and torched a local QT
b) dealt with it like an adult.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

I dealt with it like an adult, paid $300 bail, talked to the judge, got my $300 back.

Now sure, if I did not have $300, things would have sucked. But mistakes happen, sometimes with unfortunate outcomes. And they do not only happen to black people either.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't condone rioting, either. But when it happens I try to understand why so I can decide for myself if the underlying issue, or the police response to it, is something that should be changed. Sometimes the answer is 'yes', and sometimes it's 'no'.

The problem is that if you engage in rioting you lose any credibility even if you had a point initially.

- - - Updated - - -

While I do agree the speed traps are more onerous what was going on in Ferguson was bad.

I am not saying it wasn't bad, but it isn't something limited to black communities. And as such, trying to frame in in terms of race is disingenuous.

It was not a justification for the riots, though.

That too.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as your current claims of seeing them as 'fully human beings on equal level' as yourself: You have years of posting history that demonstrate otherwise.

No, you do not. You have misrepresentation of my posting history.

I don't think that will happen as in this 'rebuttal' post, you've already confessed to seeing yourself better than (some) other people

But not because of their skin color.

 

[Derec]

It's a mistake to assume that everyone protesting knew Brown personally, or that if he'd been a stranger they wouldn't have been upset. The evidence strongly indicates otherwise.

You are right there. The riots erupted without knowing who this Michael Brown was, what he did, or what led to him getting shot six times.

People in Ferguson were angry due to their mistreatment by an abusive police department acting on behalf of a predatory justice system that was fleecing them in order to raise revenues.

Fines for revenues is a distasteful practice, but hardly confined to Ferguson. Also, their elected officials are the ones who voted for these fines. I guess breaking shit is more fun than voting.

The violations of their civil rights was wide spread, ongoing, and blatant.

If fines for revenue are a violation of civil rights, then many more people's civil rights are being violated.

Michael Brown being shot with his hands up (as reported by multiple eyewitnesses) was the last straw, not the only straw.

Doesn't change the fact that they rioted before they knew what was going on. In the end, the "hands up don't shoot" narrative fell apart due to both witness accounts and physical evidence.

 

[Arctish]

Getting a warrant out for failure to appear is not a violation of civil rights. Neither is not being allowed to walk in the middle of the street.

Either you didn't read the DOJ report and have no idea what kind or how many violations of civil rights took place, or you're playing some sort of game where you pretend to be ignorant so I will keep spoon feeding you information so you can turn your nose up at it.

Either way, I'm not going forward with you in this discussion until you give some indication you made an effort to suss out facts and are willing to discuss them.

 

[another1]

Oh Ferguson is a corrupt place with outta control cops, so the last straw was the little boy getting his brains shot out while holding his hands up. Is that what you're saying? Well I doubt they will ever run out of straws, but the picture is a little more clear now. Thank you. There is no "last straw" apparently, because people keep going on and on about the casualties of maintaining order. Looked at some Google approved images of "Ferguson". Tell me, why do people turn on the police? Does this make sense to you? The people in the little images look very mad. I'm thinking police aren't what they should be mad at, but whatever.

Oh God. I bet everybody freaked out the other night when a little kid accidentally got shot by the black, Ferguson heroin dealer, but turns out it wasn't a cop responsible, so everything turned out Okay. Whew, I bet it was almost a tragedy.

Now I offer you a solution. It is a machine that shoots money and small pieces of gold. It is my invention but you have permission to build it. A dollar bill can go a long way. 50 feet to be exact. Aided by gold fragments, maybe 100. When crowds start to get squirrely, push a button on the side of the gun. A frequency will notify the crowd that it is about to "rain", as they say. The gun will cost $4,000 per clip to shoot, but one clip is guaranteed to disperse any inner city crowd. This invention could turn any riot into a block party. Ten clips from this special riot gun could prevent millions in damage, and also reveal how much people actually care. Not many I'd say. Finished building my gun yet? Hurry.

 

[Arctish]

Remember when you said you should probably try a little harder to stay "up" on things?

You were right.

 

[another1]

All the same events man. Things repeat, so once you've got the basics down, you don't need to stay up any further. For conversation's sake, maybe staying up on things matters. Otherwise it is just new places and names, but still the same type of people causing problems. Same old nonsense that shouldn't even matter. Distractions and whatnot. Oh, a black child died in America? WTF. 30,000 unfairly died elsewhere today. Who is up on that? Admit that someone certainly should be. Shame on these people feigning concern for just one child. Feign concern for all of them, if you think you're special enough. And shame on people blaming the police, even if the little boy was murdered by a cop. People don't think right, and it scares me sometimes.

Arctish, staying up on some things would insult my integrity. American police-shooting casualties are boring. Boring protests. Boring slogans. Terrible social media grammar (if you can call it grammar) and shitty little videos of protest. Jumping around in the streets, saying look at me, I'm mad. Insect-like behavior if you ask me. They are doing themselves no favors, and frankly conversations about it online are doing no favors for anyone. We're only doing favors for ourselves, by talking about this.. and that is a psychological thing I have been up on for a while. Doubt
I need to explain. See? I do stay up on some things

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Tell me, why do people turn on the police? Does this make sense to you? The people in the little images look very mad. I'm thinking police aren't what they should be mad at, but whatever.

The police are authority figures who are supposed to be -- and expected to be -- part of the solution and not part of the problem. More importantly, they are invested with the power to kill, the power to deny freedom, the power to interfere with people's lives as part of their daily duty. The community assumes that along with this power comes the responsibility to use it for the good of the people they're supposed to be protecting.

When some random homeless guy goes crazy and stabs someone on the bus, there aren't any riots or protests or anger in the streets. You know why? Because "random homeless guy" isn't expected to be on his best behavior; the community doesn't trust him to do anything except be homeless and a little bit crazy, and he's living up to their expectations.

When a gang banger shoots into a crowd that contains one of his rivals and accidentally hits a five year old in the face, there aren't ant riots or protests or anger in the streets. You know why? Because "Gang banger" isn't expected to serve his community or use his power (which literally NO ONE wanted him to have in the first place) for the good of the community. He's a criminal, and everyone expects him to ACT like a criminal, and he's living up to their expectations.

And in BOTH cases, the people who are supposed to deal with the gang bangers and crazy knife wielding bums... that's the POLICE, the people who are supposed to be protecting them.

Now suppose a POLICEMAN gets pissed off and stabs someone on the bus, or fires into a crowd of people and accidentally hits a five year old in the face. People are going to be pissed; there are going to be protests and anger in the streets. And if the police departments in either case bend over backwards to insist that "the police acted properly" in that situation, you WILL have riots. This is because police officers are NOT supposed to behave like criminals and thugs, and the departments are NOT supposed to excuse that kind of behavior.

This is basic civics: The Community gives its consent to be governed on the condition that the government they consent to will look after their best interests. When the government puts the interests of the police above that of the community, the community will protest; if the interests of the police are AT ODDS with the needs of the community -- as happened in Ferguson -- then the community will inevitably rebel against that government. A "riot" is what happens when that rebellion manifests without any coherent leadership or unity of purpose. When rioters form ranks, select leaders and form an actual plan of attack, it becomes an insurrection.

tl;dr: It's a good thing black people are so fucking sloppy that they never bother to plan anything in advance. If they weren't, then the riots in Ferguson could have evolved into something ALOT more dangerous.