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Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

Regarding the immediate response via protests from the Ferguson Black community.

Someone earlier was questioning why they could not "just wait". It appears that the documentation I linked to revealing the HISTORY of the police depart. ( later Ravensky mentioned it by referring to the firing of a LT. resulting from an internal investigation, following a Police Officer being the "whistle blower" regarding an intentional order to specifically target Black members of the community) escaped the attention of any one questioning whsy such immediate response. As if that community was to TRUST that the Police dept. was to objectively conduct a thorough investigation when the now dead person was a member of the Black community.

When people lose trust in their local law enforcement bodies, they are not to be expected to just sit back and safely assume that there will be an objective and honest investigation. Similar loss of trust into a Police depart. displaying integrity had occurred in Seminole County Fl., 2 years ago, specifically the Sanford PD due to its history of having botched several investigations involving a victim of Black ethnicity. Thus the immediate response via protests in Seminole County following the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

Law Enforcement bodies, whether they be City, County, State or Federal are supposed to inspire TRUST among the communities they are called to serve and protect. When they lose that trust based on their own dysfunctions, it is to be expected the public will take a pro active approach rather than just sit back.
 
you're reaching
And its sad.

You have a dead body, with six bullets, and a probability that the victim may have been on his knees at least for some of those shots.

But don't give up

You may be able to convict the dead guy of something yet

6 bullets from the front.

In other words he was not running away when the cop fired.

I don't mind some of the shots being while he was on his knees--the human brain/body is capable of firing additional shots considerably faster than the brain is capable of deciding the target is no longer a threat. Thus shots being fired as the target goes down is likely.


Whoa there: six shots that hit him from the front. Or are we to assume that the officer was such a crack shot that he hit the exact intended target with every shot? Explain again why no disabling shot to the leg by such a skilled marksman.
 
9% searches without an outstanding warrant for blacks is quite clearly wrong, because 12% of blacks that are stopped are searched, and 8% (2/3 of those searched) of blacks that are stopped are arrested for pre-existing outstanding warrants. Arrests inherently entail searches and the numbers show that about 70% of searches of blacks occur as a result of an already in-process arrest (mostly for warrants). That only leaves about 1/3 of searches being due to factors other than an outstanding warrant.

You have to subtract the number of those with warrants from the number searched, for each race. For blacks, that means 562 - 369 = 193. And for Whites, 47 - 14 = 33. Then you divide these by the total number of stops for each group (also subtracting the warrants from the number of stops). For blacks that means 193 / (4632 - 369) = .045 or 4.5%. For whites that means 33 / (686 -14) = .049 or 4.9%. This gives you the % of stops that lead to searches, where the was no warrant. I had done them in my head with rounding but my earlier 4% versus 5% is pretty close to 4.5% versus 4.9%. Either way, whites are searched in a higher % of stops without warrants. Also, among drivers without warrants, the arrest rate is higher for whites (3.3%) than blacks (2.7%).

(snip)

The bottom line is that among the people in Ferguson without warrants for prior crimes that essentially guarantee a search and arrest,
blacks are LESS likely than whites to be either searched or arrested when pulled over.

That fact is incompatible with what is clearly predicted by any theory that the cops are so racist that they hunt for any excuse to hassle and arrest blacks, especially since people pulled over for a traffic or equipment violation would be easy targets for this.

The greater "stop" disparity is compatible with such a theory, but the overall disparity in stops is in line with the size predicted by the greater % of outstanding warrants among blacks, even if checking for warrants was by running a plate was done in proportion to population size. That said there is some unaccounted for disparities that might be due to racist hassling, such as the disparity in being pulled over for a moving violation. But again, the theory that this results from "invented" rather than real differences in violations by racist cops cannot predict a difference in invented stops without also predicting a difference in invented reasons for search and arrests, and yet the data refute such a prediction with searches and arrests.
Nice analysis. However, couldn't the higher search rate among whites compared to blacks without outstanding warrants indicate that blacks might be getting stopped more often, even when there is no reason to search? Whereas whites only get pulled over when there is more grounds for doing so, thus resulting in higher search ratio.

Neither blacks nor whites are being stopped for the purpose of searching them. Unless there is a warrant that basically requires arrest and search (in that order), then less than 5% of non-warrant drivers of all racesget searched when pulled over. The vast majority of pull overs are for moving violations or improper licence plate with the latter being the reason with the greatest race discrepancy. That discrepancy is the one tied to paying registration fees, so it makes sense that poorer people would be most likely to have such a violation and blacks in Ferguson are disproportionately poor. OF the listed reasons for stop, arguably "moving violation" should be the one least likely to trigger a search since there is nothing suspicious about the vehicle itself and its not part of an "investigation" into a crime in the area. Yet, whites are stopped for a moving violation 68% of the time, while for blacks its only 48% of the time. So, it anything, the listed reasons for pull overs predict fewer searches of whites, even after removing the warrant-related searches. Are whites the victim of racism? If the numbers were flipped, we know that many here would claim evidence of anti-black racism, but I wouldn't infer anti-white racism from these numbers because there are too many unknowns. Whites have a 50% higher drug contraband hit rate, so maybe thats part of it. OTOH, blacks have

It would be interesting to compare also the contraband ratio for searches without warrant: lower ratio means the bar for searching someone is probably lower which could have racial motivation. If the blacks who are searched still have lower contraband ratio than whites, then it would indicate that despite being searched less often, it could still be racist.

The key would being "could", just as it "could" be 100 other things from age, time of day, number of people in the car, family vs group of young adults, etc.. Contrary to the strawman theory of AA and laughing dog, this doesn't mean that alternatives are given preference over racism, just basic rational consideration that so many are opposed to, and which makes the probability of any factor including racism, 1 / # of factors = very low without additional and more direct evidence supporting it over the others.
Also, if the ratio came out the other direction (as it does with ratio of unwarranted searches per stop) then those who oppose considering other factors would assume it was one of these factors and not even consider the possibility of anti-white racism. Maybe cops are arresting and searching blacks so often because they are so likely to have warrants, that when it comes to more subjective reasons for search, they have a bias against whites to try and even it out? This "could" be the case and would be as consistent with the data and anything in the data that appears consistent with an anti-black bias. But one would not rationally go beyond "could" in either case because their are just too many other variables that impacts all these outcomes, some of which likely covary with race.

As to contraband, we don't have contraband hit rates specifically for non-warrant searches, but if we assume that contraband is spread evenly over warrant and non-drivers of both races, then white non-warrant drivers would have higher hit rates for drug contraband, but blacks would have higher hit rates for the far more serious crimes of possessing weapons or stolen property. While drugs are more likely, weapons and stolen property are far worse in most peoples minds (and that includes cops). So, what does that mean? It means that we cannot infer anything meaningful from such numbers. Also, contraband hitrates are posterior probabilities and thus are consequences of and not causes of search. You cannot infer that because something was found there was more reason to search for it. What matters is a priori probabilities in the cops heads. That is where racism is predicted to have its impact. Despite whites actually having more drugs revealed by searches, racist cops would assume a priori that blacks have more drugs or just want to search them for the fun of it. Thus, the racism hypothesis predicts a greater search rate of blacks, regardless of of contraband hit rates. Yet, this prediction fails, since whites are searched more based upon cops subjective suspicions (i.e., reasons other than existing warrant).

The bottom line is that the racism hypothesis makes several predictions, and some are consistent with the data, while some are contradicted by the data, and all the data has many unmeasured and uncontrolled factors that confound the results and make many alternatives equally consistent with the data. Any reasonable person would look at that data and say that it looks a lot like the kind of inconsistent and unreliable relationships predicted by the null hypothesis of no racism influence, and provides as much reason to doubt as to support the racist hypothesis. About the only hypothesis that can be ruled out by the data is the one that anti-black racism is strong enough to exert an consistent influence and override the influence of other factors, because that would yield consistent anti-black disparities, regardless of warrants, contraband hit-rates, etc..
 
6 bullets from the front.

In other words he was not running away when the cop fired.

I don't mind some of the shots being while he was on his knees--the human brain/body is capable of firing additional shots considerably faster than the brain is capable of deciding the target is no longer a threat. Thus shots being fired as the target goes down is likely.


Whoa there: six shots that hit him from the front. Or are we to assume that the officer was such a crack shot that he hit the exact intended target with every shot? Explain again why no disabling shot to the leg by such a skilled marksman.

It you could shoot at a moving target, using a hand gun, and make a surgical "disabling" shot, you'd get gold at the Olympics. Yet, at the Olympics, the pistol targets are stationary. So you'd need to be better than all expert pistol shooters in the world.
 
Releasing the information to the public does not preclude it being used as evidence in a trial
Never claimed that it did. For the third time: this PR stunt is designed to serve the interests of the police department, NOT to serve the interests of public order. Those are not necessarily the same thing.

And I do not see why information not favorable to the dead guy should be censored.
"Censored" implies that the information got out entirely on its own just because somebody was interested in digging it up. You are aware, however, that the police do not make it a policy of publicizing police reports and surveillance videos every time somebody shoplifts from the quick-e-mart.

That's not answering the question.
It IS answering the question. The police department exists to serve the needs of the public, not merely its own needs. Accusing the victim of a crime after having killed him serves no purpose to the public at all, it's intended to defame his character and create sympathy for the police department.

And in anticipation of your next objection: yes, it IS defamation, since even a thuggish black teenagers are entitled to due process and considered innocent until proven guilty. If Brown was ever convicted of a crime that would be one thing, but his "strong arm robbery charge" wasn't even known to the police until two days after he was dead.
 
Ravensky, did you read the link that I put out in my recent post? The witness said that Brown doubled back and ran towards Wilson.


Way too many variables to even consider the boy was attacking the cop.


So, you won't "even consider" that the cop was under threat, even when some of the evidence is consistent with it?
So, then do you also think that there are way too many variables to even consider that the cop shot Brown because he was black?
Or are there some preferred theories you'll consider more than others, regardless of the evidence, the lack thereof, or the number of alternative factors at play?

I agree that running toward the cop is consistent with aggression but also with other possibilities. Just like I agree that some of the facts are consistent with racism but also with other theories. All these possibilities must be considered before inferring the influence of any particular factor, and the number of possibilities reduces the plausibility of any particular one of them. Its funny how for many here, considering the possibilities for pieces of data is accepted sometimes, but giving any consideration to any possible factors other than racism gets derided as an "Anything but Racism Theory".

It is also ironic how people want cops and the justice system to err on the side of innocence when dealing with suspects, but then want to err on the side of presuming murderously criminal racist intent when a cop is responsible for an unfortunate outcome. Call me crazy, but I kinda think we should want the cop to have good evidence of violent threat before using force, AND we should want ourselves and everyone else to have good evidence before claiming a cop is a racist murderer. Even more crazy is that I hold this standard, regardless of the race of anyone involved rather than drastically change my standards of evidence depending on whether its a black or white person being accused.

But then again, I'm sure Athena can scour some pseudo-intellectual post-modern writings about race theory to tell me that using the same standards of evidence-based reasoning for blacks and whites is somehow itself an act of racism. Of course, those writing won't have any evidence or reasoned argument for these claims, but that is the beauty and appeal of post-modern analysis, when you are arguing against the principles of reasoned thought, you don't need to support those arguments with reasoned thought.
 
6 bullets from the front.

In other words he was not running away when the cop fired.
Right. According to the witnesses, that was the point when he turned around and threw his hands up.

I don't mind some of the shots being while he was on his knees--the human brain/body is capable of firing additional shots considerably faster than the brain is capable of deciding the target is no longer a threat.
Not when you have control of your weapon it isn't. A person who is frantically pulling the trigger again and again until he has emptied his gun into his target is a person who should not be in possession of a firearm in the first place. Controlled shooting means you site your target, control your breathing and squeeze -- do not pull -- the trigger, then site the target and do it a second time if necessary. Every shot is a decision, and every shot has consequences.

Wilson was dealing with a belligerent suspect who had just decided to stop fleeing and turned to face him. Big scary black man just turned around to face me and now he's looking at me and wants to do me harm! He got scared. He panicked. He opened fire.

He either needs to be SERIOUSLY retrained to use his weapon responsibly, or he needs to find a new line of work (preferably something that doesn't involve firearms).
 
You bring this up repeatedly and it's wrong every time.
Actually, this is the first time in this thread that I brought up that specific point. And no matter how specific I was in my wording, it appears you are misunderstanding what the actual point is.

You bring it up again and again on shooting threads and it's never right.

I will repeat it : are we to settle for LEOs acting as Judge and Jury by delivering and executing what is the equivalent of a death sentence?

Then lets get rid of the notion of self defense. If the thug wants to rape you you're not allowed to resist other than by running away.

Other than in very narrow circumstances there is no such thing as shoot to disable. You shoot to stop, the reality is that such shots are likely to kill.
You mean to tell me that trained LEOs are given a pass to shoot to kill when dealing with a circumstance when the running away party is UNarmed and further the same running away party presenting NO threat of death or imminent harm to the pursuing LEO? You do realize that if such "pass" existed, it would mean that indeed law enforcement officers cross over into the Judiciary system.

*IF* he was running away and posed no threat to the officers or others you would be right.

However, all the hits were in front. He wasn't running away.

While there are spots that could disable without killing they're beyond human ability to hit on a moving target.
But a fatal shot to the head is somehow easier on a moving target? And again and again when the said target is UNarmed and presenting no imminent threat of death or harm to the pursuing LEO.

Or just chance.

Under combat conditions the typical trained shooter will be doing well to hit the torso, let alone a small target deep within the body.
To my knowledge Law Enforcement Officers should NOT be confused for military personnel trained to respond in a combat situation to armed enemies who do present a threat of death or harm to the said military personnel in a combat situation.

What you seem to be attempting to do here is to validate and justify the use of lethal force and resulting death of Michael Brown. That may not be your intention, but in this specific case, there was NO justification for Officer Wilson to shoot to kill. It is undeniable that he shot Brown to kill.

At this point it looks like a justified shoot. The majority of the witnesses are either mistaken or lying--which comes as no surprise to me. When a black person is shot by the police you can count on proclamations of his innocence, that he wouldn't hurt anyone, that he didn't pose a threat. If there are witnesses you can generally count on them saying such stuff.

Rarely do the claims hold up to the test of time.
 
6 bullets from the front.

In other words he was not running away when the cop fired.

I don't mind some of the shots being while he was on his knees--the human brain/body is capable of firing additional shots considerably faster than the brain is capable of deciding the target is no longer a threat. Thus shots being fired as the target goes down is likely.


Whoa there: six shots that hit him from the front. Or are we to assume that the officer was such a crack shot that he hit the exact intended target with every shot? Explain again why no disabling shot to the leg by such a skilled marksman.

So the cops have seeker bullets that when they miss turn around and hit the target from the other direction???

Since the cop isn't firing torpedoes we can conclude that the shots came from the direction they hit him. He was facing the cop when he was shot.

We have a bunch of witnesses that say he was running away--since that's not consistent with the facts they're useless. We have a couple that say he charged the cop when challenged--and supposedly one has video showing this. (I have not seen the supposed video.)

Conclusion: He was charging the cop. The altercation in the car that caused a round to be fired certainly shows him a threat. Justified shoot.
 
The key would being "could", just as it "could" be 100 other things from age, time of day, number of people in the car, family vs group of young adults, etc.. Contrary to the strawman theory of AA and laughing dog, this doesn't mean that alternatives are given preference over racism, just basic rational consideration that so many are opposed to, and which makes the probability of any factor including racism, 1 / # of factors = very low without additional and more direct evidence supporting it over the others.

And when faced with something that could be due to reasonable causes or could be due to something illegal it's reasonable to figure it's probably due to legal causes.

That's especially true when you have a case like this where much of the discrepancy has already been shown to be legal.
 
Whoa there: six shots that hit him from the front. Or are we to assume that the officer was such a crack shot that he hit the exact intended target with every shot? Explain again why no disabling shot to the leg by such a skilled marksman.

It you could shoot at a moving target, using a hand gun, and make a surgical "disabling" shot, you'd get gold at the Olympics. Yet, at the Olympics, the pistol targets are stationary. So you'd need to be better than all expert pistol shooters in the world.

It's worse than that. The only disabling targets are moving erratically, not merely moving. A SEAL would have a better chance of making the shot (as you say, Olympians only work with stationary targets) but even they know better than to try.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. According to the witnesses, that was the point when he turned around and threw his hands up.

I don't mind some of the shots being while he was on his knees--the human brain/body is capable of firing additional shots considerably faster than the brain is capable of deciding the target is no longer a threat.
Not when you have control of your weapon it isn't. A person who is frantically pulling the trigger again and again until he has emptied his gun into his target is a person who should not be in possession of a firearm in the first place. Controlled shooting means you site your target, control your breathing and squeeze -- do not pull -- the trigger, then site the target and do it a second time if necessary. Every shot is a decision, and every shot has consequences.

That's not how police are taught anymore--they found it doesn't work.
 
That's not how police are taught anymore--they found it doesn't work.

So, you should be able to provide multiple links to stories about times when police were overpowered by unarmed civilians and had their guns taken from them and used against them, right? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious to read some of those stories so that I might understand the mindset of the police, who would rather shoot repeatedly to kill in these situations.
 
That's not how police are taught anymore
Police? That's how MARINES are taught. It's called "spray and pray" and it is something that soldiers are taught to avoid at all costs, because doing so makes you almost as dangerous to your comrades as you are to the enemy.

This for a soldier in the battlefield whose job is to kill his enemies. Weapon control is even MORE important for police officers, because in law enforcement there is no such thing as "the enemy." There are only suspects and bystanders, and the police officer is responsible for BOTH of them.

You might as well suggest that police officers don't need to have valid driver's licenses.
 
Heard on the radio.

Hearsay. Twice.

According to someone, the significant other of the officer involved reports:

The police car stopped and asked them to move. The car moved on. A radio call was received describing Brown. They decided to go back. This time a struggle ensued and a shot went off. The victim ran and then turned back, taunted, and rushed the policeman. One shot did not stop. Nor the second through the 5th. The 6th was a lucky head shot at 3 feet.

Double hearsay (now this report 4th hand), so who knows.
 
Heard on the radio.

Hearsay. Twice.

According to someone, the significant other of the officer involved reports:

The police car stopped and asked them to move. The car moved on. A radio call was received describing Brown. They decided to go back. This time a struggle ensued and a shot went off. The victim ran and then turned back, taunted, and rushed the policeman. One shot did not stop. Nor the second through the 5th. The 6th was a lucky head shot at 3 feet.

Double hearsay (now this report 4th hand), so who knows.

Well, that is apparently the police officer's version as told by a friend.

According to Josie, Officer Wilson was aware of the convenience store robbery and had flagged down Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson for walking in the middle of the street. When he realized the description on the police radio matched that of Brown, he pulled up near them to get out of the car. That’s when, as Josie told host Dana Loesch, Brown allegedly shoved the officer back into his cruiser and punched him in the face.

Josie alleged that Brown reached for Wilson’s gun and, at one point, had it completely turned against the officer’s hip. When the officer shoved the weapon away, it fired, she said.

“Michael takes off with his friend,” she continued. “And they get to be about 35 feet away.” Josie asserted that Wilson then followed police protocol by pursuing Brown and telling him to “freeze.” She claimed that Brown “started hounding” the officer, suggesting he wouldn’t actually fire the weapon at the teenagers.

“All of the sudden, [Brown] just started to bum rush him,” Josie added. “He just started coming at him, full-speed, and so [Wilson] just started shooting, and [Brown] just kept coming.”

And more: “So [Wilson] really thinks [Brown] was on something, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two to three feet in front of the officer.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-airs-officers-side-of-story-as-recounted-by-friend-of-darren-wilson/

Consistent with witness statements and the autopsy.
 
Well, that is apparently the police officer's version as told by a friend.

According to Josie, Officer Wilson was aware of the convenience store robbery and had flagged down Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson for walking in the middle of the street. When he realized the description on the police radio matched that of Brown, he pulled up near them to get out of the car. That’s when, as Josie told host Dana Loesch, Brown allegedly shoved the officer back into his cruiser and punched him in the face.

Josie alleged that Brown reached for Wilson’s gun and, at one point, had it completely turned against the officer’s hip. When the officer shoved the weapon away, it fired, she said.

“Michael takes off with his friend,” she continued. “And they get to be about 35 feet away.” Josie asserted that Wilson then followed police protocol by pursuing Brown and telling him to “freeze.” She claimed that Brown “started hounding” the officer, suggesting he wouldn’t actually fire the weapon at the teenagers.

“All of the sudden, [Brown] just started to bum rush him,” Josie added. “He just started coming at him, full-speed, and so [Wilson] just started shooting, and [Brown] just kept coming.”

And more: “So [Wilson] really thinks [Brown] was on something, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two to three feet in front of the officer.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-airs-officers-side-of-story-as-recounted-by-friend-of-darren-wilson/

Consistent with witness statements and the autopsy.
Possibly inconsistent with the autopsy. Should a shot from 3 feet in the head not leave 'gunpowder' residue? The autopsy report claimed there was no such residue on the body.
 
No, I do not claim certainty. Quite the opposite, I claim uncertainty. And I do not think calling the police officer "murderer" and the incident "murder of Michael Brown" is right or fruitful while there is so much uncertainty.
It was a shooting that resulting in death. It may end up being justifiable homicide, but it is still a homicide. Given that stopping Mr. Brown for jaywalking (!!!!!) started this entire tragedy, I think it is reasonable to place the onus on the police to show this was a righteous act on the part of Officer Wilson.
I haven't paid much attention to the details and made some assumptions. Apparently wrong ones. He was stopped for Jaywalking?!? How in the fuck does someone die in such circumstances?
 
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