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Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

Da fuck you say: women ‘got out of work’ by marrying ‘traditional men.’
No I don't. I da fuck said "traditionalist men", and I'm talking about people one of whom you say you know - so you understand that it still happens today (though it was of course far more common before the World Wars of the early twentieth century).

I am not unaware of the enormous unpaid work done by women; But it's by definition irrelevant to the topic of personal income, unless it's paid for in cash. The question of whether it should be paid for in cash, and if so by whom, would be a completely different thread.
 
Da fuck you say: women ‘got out of work’ by marrying ‘traditional men.’
No I don't. I da fuck said "traditionalist men", and I'm talking about people one of whom you say you know - so you understand that it still happens today (though it was of course far more common before the World Wars of the early twentieth century).

I am not unaware of the enormous unpaid work done by women; But it's by definition irrelevant to the topic of personal income, unless it's paid for in cash. The question of whether it should be paid for in cash, and if so by whom, would be a completely different thread.
*knew. She died some years ago
 
dirty little secret ------- sssshhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell anyone
How LESS MINIMUM WAGE = more jobs



Doesn't there come a point where the liars should cut the crap and just admit the truth!?

The above clip from PBS Newshour is about the sub-minimum wage which is legal for some handicapped workers. They're called 14C jobs, where workers are allowed to do jobs at $4/hour and even less, provided they are certified handicapped.

Here is the truth, and everyone really knows it, despite the lies:

Minimum wage law causes loss of some jobs.

If you keep repeating this slogan that

MW Does Not Kill Jobs​

especially after watching this video clip of Judy Woodruff interviewing handicapped workers, then you are a certified liar -- there's no other way to put it.


Just answer the obvious question: Why is it that these sub-minimum wage jobs are allowed, and have been allowed for decades? There can be only one reason, and you know perfectly well what that reason is: If these lower-wage jobs are made illegal, and the MW law is enforced for all these workers and employers, then those jobs will -- what? they will sshhhhh disappear. You know it, everyone knows it, and yet we're not supposed to say it.


If those employers are told they must double the wage, increase it to the MW level,
answer ---- What will happen to many of these jobs?


Come on --- answer the question. If you give an ultimatum to these employers to pay the legal minimum wage to these workers ---- $15/hour or whatever --- what is going to happen?


Come on, say the words. You know what will happen. What's causing you to choke up? You can't say the words?

Notice how Judy Woodruff refuses to ask this question outright, but you can tell what she's thinking, and some of the others also. You know that if those employers are told they must pay the higher wage, they will eliminate most of these jobs. Probably 90% of them.


They're paying only $4 or $5 or $6 per hour under this exemption provision in the MW law. Tell them they have to pay double or even triple and what's going to happen? You know, everyone knows what will happen. And yet they don't even ask that question here in this video clip. The question is almost begging to be asked, everyone is thinking this question who is interviewed here and speaks about it.

She asks this one employee who says she likes her job and wants to keep it. And yet it's suggested that she might not have a choice and the job could be eliminated ---- if these jobs are ended and the wage has to be raised up to the MW level.

And what does this employee say? Listen to her say: "My choice!"


Without saying it per se, she is arguing that it's better to keep the lower wage jobs if employers want to hire her, and

It should be her choice, rather than others demanding that the MW be enforced.

How can you honestly deny that MW causes job loss after listening to this? Isn't it obvious that there are extra jobs which would not exist if this exemption did not exist? Isn't it obvious that it's only the ABSENCE OF THE MW (in these cases) which makes these jobs possible? !!


Explain how you are not a liar to deny that MW causes job loss, after watching this video?

And the additional question is: Why is it virtually forbidden to even ask the question -- What happens if employers are forced to raise the wage higher? e.g. to double the wage?

Why is it forbidden to even ask this question?


Why doesn't Judy Woodruff ask this question here in this news item on whether these low-wage jobs should be made illegal?

Do proponents of MW here have the honesty and integrity to answer this question? Probably not. Minimum wage law is based on dishonesty and lying and scapegoating of employers and nothing else. And that's why no proponent of MW will answer this question and explain why these sub-minimum wage jobs are allowed, or what will happen if the law is changed to force the wage up and -- sshhhhhh eliminate these jobs.

Notice how the Senator (who wants to allow employers to continue doing this, or seek lower-wage labor) makes an appeal to the market and competition and the company's need to reduce cost and conform to the Law of Supply-and-Demand -- saying that getting the work done is what matters, and higher performance by workers is worth paying for at a competitive wage level (which is less than MW in some cases). He tries to not say this outright, but he's clearly implying that the handicapped workers are of lower value and are viable employees only at the lower wage level. And employers must do what's viable for the business.

Notice that J. Woodruff says the 14C program was enacted originally in order to allow some disabled job-seekers to get hired. In other words, reducing the wage level for them made it possible for them to get hired because a job would be offered to them which otherwise would not exist (at the higher required wage level) = higher wage required = fewer jobs.

Notice that (about 7:40 in the video) the one interviewed uses the phrase "right to work" -- what does that mean?

Notice the code language. They won't come right out and say it. But with this code language they are saying these jobs would be eliminated, taking away their job, their "right to work" if the higher wage level (MW) is enforced.
 
It is in the interest of employers to keep wage costs down, consequently they tend to pay as little as possible regardless of what they can afford or the market value being produced by their employees. Human nature 101. Therefore the need for an independent arbiter - the government - to set a minimum wage.
 
A living wage should simply be a part of doing business. If you can't pay it then your goods/services are not desirable enough to the customer.
The needs of the disabled and a decent life for them should be seen to by the rest of us.

Here parents of disabled children banded together and created a decent life for them complete with housing and employment for those who want it. We have housing for the disabled. Nice little free standing houses and they operate businesses: a cafe, horse ranch, ice cream shop, pet services, sell produce and coffee. And in this, they need not worry about being taken advantage of by moneygrubbing employers.
 
Won't anyone answer this question:
If you give an ultimatum to these employers to pay the legal minimum wage to these workers ---- $15/hour or whatever --- what is going to happen?

Any answer yet? Anyone honest enough to answer?

It is in the interest of employers to keep wage costs down, consequently they tend to pay as little as possible regardless of what they can afford or the market value being produced by their employees. Human nature 101. Therefore the need for an independent arbiter - the government - to set a minimum wage.


A living wage should simply be a part of doing business. If you can't pay it then your goods/services are not desirable enough to the customer.
The needs of the disabled and a decent life for them should be seen to by the rest of us.

Here parents of disabled children banded together and created a decent life for them complete with housing and employment for those who want it. We have housing for the disabled. Nice little free standing houses and they operate businesses: a cafe, horse ranch, ice cream shop, pet services, sell produce and coffee. And in this, they need not worry about being taken advantage of by moneygrubbing employers.
Notice that no MW proponent has the honesty to answer the question: What happens if the MW is enforced and the sub-minimum wage employers are required to increase the wage to the MW level?

They can't answer it because it would prove that
MW does result in job losses, as those employers would eliminate those jobs. This proves it's a lie to say that MW does not kill jobs.

Remember, it was FDR who instituted this exemption for handicapped workers, allowing much lower wage level for them. Was he wrong? Do you really want those workers to be deprived of these jobs? which they want to keep? Who prefer that you let them have their choice? "My choice" -- And your answer to them is what?

Why won't any MW crusader answer this? Do you want to enforce MW onto those employers, so they will eliminate those jobs? Yes or No?

Can't give an answer? Can't be honest?
 
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A minimum wage may result in some job losses in some industries and increases in jobs other industries. As any honest and competent economist knows, it is an empirical question whether there is a net increase or decrease in job losses.
 
In the case of disability exemption to pay below minimum wage, isn’t that in large part because there is an agreement to provide the extra guidance coaching and protection that those employees require? And that these employees getting only $4/hour require extra subsidies to cover their daily living expenses while $4/hr won’t?

So if minimum wage is enforced, then we as a society will need to supplement the cost of the extra guidance, coaching and protection that these employees need. And they keep their jobs, at $15/hr, and have less need of subsidy to pay their every day expenses.
 
I note the latest jobs report is extremely good. Far better than expected. White hot. And the conservatives have been braying that states and cities raising minimum wages would result in massive job loses. Wrong again!
 
I note the latest jobs report is extremely good. Far better than expected. White hot. And the conservatives have been braying that states and cities raising minimum wages would result in massive job loses. Wrong again!
But, but, Biden is bad. For some reason
 
In California, we now have a new minimum wage law for fast food workers. Not sure exactly why FF workers are singled out for a raise, while others doing similar work are not, but that's the way the ball rolls these days:

New California law raises minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour, among nation’s highest

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — A new law in California will raise the minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour next year, an acknowledgment from the state’s Democratic leaders that most of the often overlooked workforce are the primary earners for their low-income households.

When it takes effect on April 1, fast food workers in California will have the highest guaranteed base salary in the industry. The state’s minimum wage for all other workers — $15.50 per hour — is already among the highest in the United States.

This will be worth watching. As it is, FF prices have increased dramatically in recent years, to the point where I just don't see the volume of business I used to and many FF places have been shutting down in my area (Burger King, namely and KFC seems to be struggling). Lots of people working from (and eating at) home, doesn't help either. On top of that, kiosks for ordering your food have taken off (especially at Taco Bell and Mickey D's) and I suspect will become more dominant as the new law takes effect. And robots for delivering food to your table will soon be here, if not already.
 
Last time i went to KFC was 2 years ago. They were expensive and a true pain in the ass to order from. That killed it for me. All fried chicken joints seem to have gone out of theircway to make ordering an ordeal. I no longer even care to go to any of them.
 
In the case of disability exemption to pay below minimum wage, isn’t that in large part because there is an agreement to provide the extra guidance coaching and protection that those employees require? And that these employees getting only $4/hour require extra subsidies to cover their daily living expenses while $4/hr won’t?

To me, the simplest thing is to just keep the exemption.
Disabled people have such individual needs and issues. A one size fits all solution like MW is probably a bad idea.
Tom
 
In California, we now have a new minimum wage law for fast food workers. Not sure exactly why FF workers are singled out for a raise, while others doing similar work are not, but that's the way the ball rolls these days:

New California law raises minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour, among nation’s highest

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — A new law in California will raise the minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour next year, an acknowledgment from the state’s Democratic leaders that most of the often overlooked workforce are the primary earners for their low-income households.

When it takes effect on April 1, fast food workers in California will have the highest guaranteed base salary in the industry. The state’s minimum wage for all other workers — $15.50 per hour — is already among the highest in the United States.

This will be worth watching. As it is, FF prices have increased dramatically in recent years, to the point where I just don't see the volume of business I used to and many FF places have been shutting down in my area (Burger King, namely and KFC seems to be struggling). Lots of people working from (and eating at) home, doesn't help either. On top of that, kiosks for ordering your food have taken off (especially at Taco Bell and Mickey D's) and I suspect will become more dominant as the new law takes effect. And robots for delivering food to your table will soon be here, if not already.
Rare bit of good news out of Sacramento.
 
In California, we now have a new minimum wage law for fast food workers. Not sure exactly why FF workers are singled out for a raise, while others doing similar work are not, but that's the way the ball rolls these days:

New California law raises minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour, among nation’s highest

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — A new law in California will raise the minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour next year, an acknowledgment from the state’s Democratic leaders that most of the often overlooked workforce are the primary earners for their low-income households.

When it takes effect on April 1, fast food workers in California will have the highest guaranteed base salary in the industry. The state’s minimum wage for all other workers — $15.50 per hour — is already among the highest in the United States.

This will be worth watching. As it is, FF prices have increased dramatically in recent years, to the point where I just don't see the volume of business I used to and many FF places have been shutting down in my area (Burger King, namely and KFC seems to be struggling). Lots of people working from (and eating at) home, doesn't help either. On top of that, kiosks for ordering your food have taken off (especially at Taco Bell and Mickey D's) and I suspect will become more dominant as the new law takes effect. And robots for delivering food to your table will soon be here, if not already.

Let them go. We'll all be healthier for it.
 
In the case of disability exemption to pay below minimum wage, isn’t that in large part because there is an agreement to provide the extra guidance coaching and protection that those employees require? And that these employees getting only $4/hour require extra subsidies to cover their daily living expenses while $4/hr won’t?

To me, the simplest thing is to just keep the exemption.
Disabled people have such individual needs and issues. A one size fits all solution like MW is probably a bad idea.
Tom
I would argue that having the MW in their hands allows them to get living conditions that do not require cooperation and support from the government, which may be difficult for the individual disabled people to navigate. While having the government can target that help and support at companies and corporations who have more ability to access systems like that.

Old idea: Pay Disabled worked less, assuming the company will use the difference to provide support services that are worth the difference, and then create living systems support services that the individual disabled people navigate.

New idea: Pay disabled people the same wage that everyone else in the living community is navigating so that they can compete on par, while government offers directed and financially overseen workplace support services.

I like the new idea better. It no longer assumes the $11/hr differential that the company saves is all being paid to support the disabled workers. Because that would be a terrible assumption.
 
It is in the interest of employers to keep wage costs down, consequently they tend to pay as little as possible regardless of what they can afford or the market value being produced by their employees. Human nature 101. Therefore the need for an independent arbiter - the government - to set a minimum wage.
There is no way the government can possibly determine the market value that a given employee brings to a business because that's not a one-size-fits-all answer.

Thus your argument is inherently wrong.
 
A living wage should simply be a part of doing business. If you can't pay it then your goods/services are not desirable enough to the customer.
The needs of the disabled and a decent life for them should be seen to by the rest of us.

Here parents of disabled children banded together and created a decent life for them complete with housing and employment for those who want it. We have housing for the disabled. Nice little free standing houses and they operate businesses: a cafe, horse ranch, ice cream shop, pet services, sell produce and coffee. And in this, they need not worry about being taken advantage of by moneygrubbing employers.
If your goods/services aren't desirable enough they won't exist--and the worker will be unemployed rather than in a low-wage job.

That's what your side always misses about this issue. If there were enough "good" jobs then the bad jobs would not find anyone they could hire. Thus the existence of the bad jobs proves that there aren't enough good jobs. "Living wage" is simply another incarnation of the infinite pool of wealth idea. (Since you make no attempt to determine if they can afford it the only conclusion is that the money you are trying to tap is infinite.)
 
A minimum wage may result in some job losses in some industries and increases in jobs other industries. As any honest and competent economist knows, it is an empirical question whether there is a net increase or decrease in job losses.
Correct--but every argument I see for raising the minimum wage completely ignores this and simply assumes that employees will not lose their jobs. Never addressing the economics is a pretty clear indication that the economics do not say what they want to say.
 
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