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Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

the only ones with more money to spend are those getting the artificial wage increase.
Are you of the bizarre opinion that there's such a thing as a non-artificial wage increase? That hard workers might be walking to work one morning and stumble across a wage increase tree, or a rich seam of wage increases revealed in a river bank after a flood?

Wages - indeed, money - are completely, 100% artificial. They're a human social construct, and as such can be structured in any way society chooses.
 
Most of the pizza places around here don't use their own drivers. They use UberEats or Grubhub. I suspect the same will happen in California.
 
Minimum Wage = bad news for every country, rich or poor
one uniform minimum wage for all economies = Leftist Fantasy Delusion
American Samoa most certainly is the USA, that's not the problem.
Okay, pedant. The American Samoa economy is not a reliable proxy for the economy of the United States of America.
But Alabama is a "reliable proxy" for the economy of the U. S.? The Federal 7.50 minimum wage is doing damage there. If you tried to impose the 15/hr wage there, it would be devastating. Ditto Mississippi and 2 or 3 other poor states.

A similar disaster to that in Samoa would also happen in these poor states if we tried to impose the Left-wing Dogmatic $15/hr doctrine onto them.

It is reasonable to apply the lesson of Samoa to the 50 states. The basic principles of economics are the same. Supply-and-Demand applies everywhere, just like the Law of Gravity.

The same also applies to poor countries like India and Bangladesh and Myanmar etc. Any attempt to impose the Democrat Party's Leftist minimum wage dogma onto those countries would result in disaster, probably even famine.
 
The poor generally are made worse off by MW

bilby: It also discounts the economic growth due to poor people having more money to spend.

Most of the poor have LESS real income because of the higher prices they must pay due to the higher labor cost resulting from higher MW.
^ Someone is terminally confused.
“Most of the poor” DON’T HAVE EMPLOYEES.
Pay attention: bilby's quote was about the "poor people having more money to spend" as consumers. Which is false -- most of them (under higher MW) will have LESS money (adjusted for inflation) because of the higher prices 100% of consumers must pay as a result of higher MW -> higher labor cost -> higher prices to consumers.

But it's also true that most poor do not have employees, and one big reason why is that the cost of business imposed onto them by gov't is exorbitantly high, including the high labor cost (along with excess regulation and taxes easily handled by the rich but crushing for the poor). The Left's labor laws have made it virtually impossible for anyone but the rich (or upper middle-income level) to be able to start a business. There is no reason why Big Gov't should be pricing the middle- and lower-income people out of the market to start a business. What's wrong with a poor person trying to start a business by hiring cheap labor etc.? Why must the Left's Giant Big Gov't Foot stomp down on every poor person to crush any effort they make to compete as an entrepreneur? MW is just one more crushing blow of the Left's hammer to squash the poor from attempting a small business venture.

They would be the RECIPIENTS of that higher labor money, not the payors.
No, many of the poor are unemployed, so they would only pay higher prices while receiving no benefit from the higher MW which would crush them even more, forcing them to pay higher prices at WalMart, as higher prices are an inevitable result of the higher labor cost. But also the middle-income brackets would pay the higher prices. 100% of consumers must pay higher prices as a result of any MW increase.

And even many of the working poor get no pay increase from higher MW, because their job isn't covered by MW, either legally or illegally. The dirty little secret of MW is:

It's not enforced

in many cases. These cases where it's not enforced are both legal (permitted exceptions) and illegal. There's no way to precisely calculate the vast numbers of workers who are simply left out of the MW job category. Maybe they are really "independent contractors" -- whatever the details, there is no way to impose the MW onto their jobs. They continue to be paid at the same low level because there's no way to enforce the law in their cases.

Other workers are only in theory covered by MW, but the reality is that there are various ways their rate of pay can be adjusted up or down, because there are variables as to how their number of hours is calculated. Some workers know they're marginal and cannot keep their job if their real pay has to increase, so they have to agree to whatever terms and variables are necessary to keep them in that job so that the employer still profits from having them remain in it.

And of course there are numerous low-paid independent contractors, subject to the whims of the market, including street vendors of one kind or another, and immigrants (legal and illegal) whose only choice is a low-paying job or no job at all, doing gardening or housework and child-care and elder-care and other low-pay work.

Virtually all these workers ignored by MW are better off with no MW being imposed, and they get no higher income when the MW increases, because all they get is higher prices to pay as consumers.

So the official workers who do get a wage increase with higher MW are offset by a huge workforce unaffected by MW other than the negative effect of price increases. When you add all these working poor excluded by MW to all the unemployed poor and also to the disabled poor who can't work, the higher prices to 100% of consumers probably more than offsets the higher wage income to some workers. It's a false slogan and fantasy to say MW benefits "the poor" generally. There is no economic data or science to confirm this Leftist fantasy.

The higher prices caused by their higher wages would be a tiny fraction;
The point is that ALL the poor, 100%, pay higher prices as a result of MW. But a very large percent of the poor get no pay increase as a result of MW, so 100% of these poor are made worse off by MW.

the vast bulk of it would be paid by those who do the vast bulk of consuming, not the poor.
Yes, meaning most is paid by the middle-class. So you're right that the cost of higher MW is overwhelmingly paid by the middle- and lower-classes in the form of higher prices at WalMart etc. So if that's what you want -- i.e., higher prices and thus lower real incomes and lower living standard for the poor and middle-class, you should favor MW increase.
 
But Alabama is a "reliable proxy" for the economy of the U. S.?
^ stupid strawman question.
Of course it’s not. You don’t HAVE an accurate proxy for the biggest economy in the world. So stop pretending.
The weight I give to any of Lumpen's posts is inversely proportional to the word count.
IKR? Seems like the easier to read, the more actual substance.
 
The claim that a given increase in the minimum wage causes an increase in the prices of the market basket for the poor which means a reduction in the real income is an empirical claim, not a hand waved claim. It may cause such an outcome but it is entirely possible it does not. The overall effect depends on the size of the minimum wage increase, the degree of competition in the various industries that make the products and services in the market basket of the poor, the demand and supply conditions, etc.....
 
We should get some good data in the next couple of quarters as

Minimum-wage workers in 22 states will be getting raises on Jan. 1 (link)​


Minimum-wage workers in 22 states are going to see more money in their paychecks in the new year.​
Those increases will affect an estimated 9.9 million workers, according to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which estimates that those bumped wages will add up to an additional $6.95 billion in pay.​
In addition to those 22 states, 38 cities and counties will also increase their minimum wages above state minimums on Jan. 1.​
 
“We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can’t have both,” Associate Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said decades ago during another period of pronounced inequality in America.''

02-income-gains-households-b.gif
 
The argument about minimum wage always gets back to how it reduces a small business ability to hire more people. But if our government wanted to be compassionate while protecting business, what it could do is tax high wage earners and then use that pool of funds to help minimum wage workers. Much like social security is set up excepting that the people putting into the fund would not be the same people collecting the funds. This would work extremely well in a community like San Yose, where there are software employees making 300-400k/year yet fast food workers still trying to make ends meet in such a high cost of living area. It would help to solve some of the housing cost and crises in that area by decreasing the gap of disposable income of the high income people versus lower income people.
 
... if our government wanted to be compassionate while protecting business, what it could do is tax high wage earners and then use that pool of funds to help minimum wage workers. Much like social security is set up excepting that the people putting into the fund would not be the same people collecting the funds.
I find it both adorable and slightly embarrassing that you genuinely seem to think that this is a novel and yet brilliant idea.

Why on Earth did nobody think of this sooner?

Oh, wait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

:rolleyesa:
 
The poor generally are made worse off by MW

bilby: It also discounts the economic growth due to poor people having more money to spend.

Most of the poor have LESS real income because of the higher prices they must pay due to the higher labor cost resulting from higher MW.
^ Someone is terminally confused.
“Most of the poor” DON’T HAVE EMPLOYEES.
Pay attention: bilby's quote was about the "poor people having more money to spend" as consumers. Which is false -- most of them (under higher MW) will have LESS money (adjusted for inflation) because of the higher prices 100% of consumers must pay as a result of higher MW -> higher labor cost -> higher prices to consumers.

But it's also true that most poor do not have employees, and one big reason why is that the cost of business imposed onto them by gov't is exorbitantly high, including the high labor cost (along with excess regulation and taxes easily handled by the rich but crushing for the poor). The Left's labor laws have made it virtually impossible for anyone but the rich (or upper middle-income level) to be able to start a business. There is no reason why Big Gov't should be pricing the middle- and lower-income people out of the market to start a business. What's wrong with a poor person trying to start a business by hiring cheap labor etc.? Why must the Left's Giant Big Gov't Foot stomp down on every poor person to crush any effort they make to compete as an entrepreneur? MW is just one more crushing blow of the Left's hammer to squash the poor from attempting a small business venture.

They would be the RECIPIENTS of that higher labor money, not the payors.
No, many of the poor are unemployed, so they would only pay higher prices while receiving no benefit from the higher MW which would crush them even more, forcing them to pay higher prices at WalMart, as higher prices are an inevitable result of the higher labor cost. But also the middle-income brackets would pay the higher prices. 100% of consumers must pay higher prices as a result of any MW increase.

And even many of the working poor get no pay increase from higher MW, because their job isn't covered by MW, either legally or illegally. The dirty little secret of MW is:

It's not enforced

in many cases. These cases where it's not enforced are both legal (permitted exceptions) and illegal. There's no way to precisely calculate the vast numbers of workers who are simply left out of the MW job category. Maybe they are really "independent contractors" -- whatever the details, there is no way to impose the MW onto their jobs. They continue to be paid at the same low level because there's no way to enforce the law in their cases.

Other workers are only in theory covered by MW, but the reality is that there are various ways their rate of pay can be adjusted up or down, because there are variables as to how their number of hours is calculated. Some workers know they're marginal and cannot keep their job if their real pay has to increase, so they have to agree to whatever terms and variables are necessary to keep them in that job so that the employer still profits from having them remain in it.

And of course there are numerous low-paid independent contractors, subject to the whims of the market, including street vendors of one kind or another, and immigrants (legal and illegal) whose only choice is a low-paying job or no job at all, doing gardening or housework and child-care and elder-care and other low-pay work.

Virtually all these workers ignored by MW are better off with no MW being imposed, and they get no higher income when the MW increases, because all they get is higher prices to pay as consumers.

So the official workers who do get a wage increase with higher MW are offset by a huge workforce unaffected by MW other than the negative effect of price increases. When you add all these working poor excluded by MW to all the unemployed poor and also to the disabled poor who can't work, the higher prices to 100% of consumers probably more than offsets the higher wage income to some workers. It's a false slogan and fantasy to say MW benefits "the poor" generally. There is no economic data or science to confirm this Leftist fantasy.

The higher prices caused by their higher wages would be a tiny fraction;
The point is that ALL the poor, 100%, pay higher prices as a result of MW. But a very large percent of the poor get no pay increase as a result of MW, so 100% of these poor are made worse off by MW.

the vast bulk of it would be paid by those who do the vast bulk of consuming, not the poor.
Yes, meaning most is paid by the middle-class. So you're right that the cost of higher MW is overwhelmingly paid by the middle- and lower-classes in the form of higher prices at WalMart etc. So if that's what you want -- i.e., higher prices and thus lower real incomes and lower living standard for the poor and middle-class, you should favor MW increase.
“The poor” are starting at $19/hr in our local Walmart Superstore, and I still shop there when I must. Otherwise I shop where things are even more expensive, supporting smaller local businesses. I think there are few businesses around here that would go under by paying WalMart wages.
American Samoa can eat my shorts!

Meanwhile, in the real world where I live…
Those Walmart employees are spending money in other places, places where they were unable to frequent ten years ago when the starting wage at WM was $8.50-$9/hr. So much so in fact, that some of those other places are able to pay their lowest tier people a bit more.

See how that works?
 
... if our government wanted to be compassionate while protecting business, what it could do is tax high wage earners and then use that pool of funds to help minimum wage workers. Much like social security is set up excepting that the people putting into the fund would not be the same people collecting the funds.
I find it both adorable and slightly embarrassing that you genuinely seem to think that this is a novel and yet brilliant idea.

Why on Earth did nobody think of this sooner?

Oh, wait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

:rolleyesa:
This would be targeted assistance not very much unlike social security. And social security is not what I would call the welfare state. Furthermore unlike the welfare state, the high income taxed and minimum wage beneficiaries would both be gainfully employed.
 
if our government wanted to be compassionate while protecting business, what it could do is tax high wage earners and then use that pool of funds to help minimum wage workers.
How quaint.
When the post war economy was booming, the top marginal tax rate was 91%.
The president was a Republican, if that makes it any more palatable, and the Corporate rate was 52%. Now it’s less than half that.
Somehow the rich always seem able to buy themselves ever lower tax rates, and make up for it by eviscerating the middle class.
 
the only ones with more money to spend are those getting the artificial wage increase.
Are you of the bizarre opinion that there's such a thing as a non-artificial wage increase? That hard workers might be walking to work one morning and stumble across a wage increase tree, or a rich seam of wage increases revealed in a river bank after a flood?

Wages - indeed, money - are completely, 100% artificial. They're a human social construct, and as such can be structured in any way society chooses.
Artificial -- government mandated, as opposed to driven by market forces.
 
Pizza Hut will lay off delivery drivers
...something that has NEVER happened other than as an explicit consequence of increases to the minimum wage, I presume?

Or just an irrelevant factoid?
This isn't just laying off some drivers, it's completely removing them. Third party delivery only. This is what happens when you push minimum wage above the value that the workers contribute.
 
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