Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

[Loren Pechtel]

No, many of the poor are unemployed, so they would only pay higher prices while receiving no benefit from the higher MW which would crush them even more, forcing them to pay higher prices at WalMart, as higher prices are an inevitable result of the higher labor cost. But also the middle-income brackets would pay the higher prices. 100% of consumers must pay higher prices as a result of any MW increase.

How in the world do you expect a greater increase in prices than the minimum wage increase? The problem isn't increased prices, it's decreased (or eliminated) hours.

 

[bilby]

the only ones with more money to spend are those getting the artificial wage increase.

Are you of the bizarre opinion that there's such a thing as a non-artificial wage increase? That hard workers might be walking to work one morning and stumble across a wage increase tree, or a rich seam of wage increases revealed in a river bank after a flood?

Wages - indeed, money - are completely, 100% artificial. They're a human social construct, and as such can be structured in any way society chooses.

Artificial -- government mandated, as opposed to driven by market forces.

Neither governments nor markets are natural (or both are, depending on your definition); And an appeal to nature is a logical fallacy anyway.

 

[bilby]

This isn't just laying off some drivers, it's completely removing them. Third party delivery only.

So, still employing drivers, but using a different business model?

Third party drivers are still drivers. Often they're the same people.

 

[DBT]

Clayton's drivers, drivers when you don't have drivers.

 

[Worldtraveller]

the only ones with more money to spend are those getting the artificial wage increase.

Are you of the bizarre opinion that there's such a thing as a non-artificial wage increase? That hard workers might be walking to work one morning and stumble across a wage increase tree, or a rich seam of wage increases revealed in a river bank after a flood?

Wages - indeed, money - are completely, 100% artificial. They're a human social construct, and as such can be structured in any way society chooses.

Artificial -- government mandated, as opposed to driven by market forces.

You continue under this stupid delusion that market forces are some magical thing totally independent of the country, world, or culture in which they are implemented. In the US, moron capital of the world, our healthcare, shitty as it is, is tied to our employment. Is that not an artificial, government mandated situation?
Our social safety net SUCKS in the US. That gives employers an unwarranted amount of influence over people who don't want to starve to death and barely survive because of shitty wages.

Or do you REALLY think that things were so much better back when kids worked in factories and coal mines?

 

[Toni]

No, many of the poor are unemployed, so they would only pay higher prices while receiving no benefit from the higher MW which would crush them even more, forcing them to pay higher prices at WalMart, as higher prices are an inevitable result of the higher labor cost. But also the middle-income brackets would pay the higher prices. 100% of consumers must pay higher prices as a result of any MW increase.

How in the world do you expect a greater increase in prices than the minimum wage increase? The problem isn't increased prices, it's decreased (or eliminated) hours.

Increased cost of materials, transportation, energy and I believe you libertarian-types would say, an increase in taxes can all cause increase in prices. You are correct that an increase in wages can drive up prices. On average CEOs were paid 344 times the average at of workers in 2022. 2022 actually saw a small dip in CEO pay.

CEOs often justify their salaries by minimizing labor costs. They elevate their own wages at the expense of the earnings of labor. In 2022, a CEO needed to eliminate 344 workers to cover their own salaries.

If a company wants to remain competitive, it often seeks to control labor costs. Somehow CEO pay is exempt from such consideration.

Do you know what else is a market force? War. War certainly drives markets up—and down.

I’m guessing that you rarely or never talk to adults under the age of 40.

 

[Elixir]

In 2022, a CEO needed to eliminate 344 workers to cover their own salaries.

Or make 34+k workers take a 1% cut.

 

[bilby]

unlike the welfare state, the high income taxed and minimum wage beneficiaries would both be gainfully employed.

Most European countries provide welfare benefits to people who are gainfully employed at low income levels, as well as to people who are unemployed.

 

[Toni]

unlike the welfare state, the high income taxed and minimum wage beneficiaries would both be gainfully employed.

Most European countries provide welfare benefits to people who are gainfully employed at low income levels, as well as to people who are unemployed.

Here, as well.

Unfortunately we provide even more benefits to uberwealthy people who can afford their own.

It's really expensive to be poor.

 

[Elixir]

It's really expensive to be poor.

QFT!
In so many ways, it really is.
Hard for a person to fathom who has never had to maintain at poverty level.
I swear it's easier to be dead broke, with everything you own on your person.

 

[ZiprHead]

unlike the welfare state, the high income taxed and minimum wage beneficiaries would both be gainfully employed.

Most European countries provide welfare benefits to people who are gainfully employed at low income levels, as well as to people who are unemployed.

Here, as well.

Unfortunately we provide even more benefits to uberwealthy people who can afford their own.

It's really expensive to be poor.

The boots theory:

A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

 

[Toni]

Real life: I bought dishes and flatware and cups for a young family who can’t get enough uncommitted cash together to do better than buy the cheapest paper plates and plastic forks and spoons. I won’t get into the story of how they found themselves in such dire straits and I’m not dumb enough to not realize if they fall far enough behind on rent that those dishes won’t make it to their next place. I just hope I can plant enough seeds of self worth and long term thinking that something will stick.

But the reality is that a lot of poor people buy convenience food because they lack…pots and pans ( someone else recently gifted those items to this family).

Think of how much money they were literally throwing away with disposable dishes! And how much more expensive ‘convenience’ food is compared to what you can buy in bulk and cook for yourself.


They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

While school is in session the kids will get fed twice a day, thank heavens. Our state is generous as far as covering kids’ medical expenses via Medicaid.

Rent is sky high because it’s high everywhere and also because this is a college town.

The mom works as many hours as she can get but a good week is 25-30. The dad? Seasonal stuff. But not unlikely that if he managed to get hired some place it would be less than full time and the ‘benefits’ would either be pitiful or nonexistent. I don’t ask many questions. It’s not my business.

Tons of people like that in town. Tons of people like that everywhere.

 

[TSwizzle]

Tons of people like that in town. Tons of people like that everywhere.

And there are tens of thousands of people that will be joining them every week. 300,000 of them in December at least.

 

[DBT]

The system is rigged in favor of the richest in society, lavish tax breaks, wage rates, bonuses and benefits.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Indeed... it takes a downed power line (can't do laundry at home) or a dead car battery (can't drive anywhere and are temporarily stuck with just the very local options) to understand (or remember) access to certain things is a privilege, not a right, even if they are very important. For us, it is temporary... for the poor, it is quasi-permanent.

The mom works as many hours as she can get but a good week is 25-30. The dad? Seasonal stuff. But not unlikely that if he managed to get hired some place it would be less than full time and the ‘benefits’ would either be pitiful or nonexistent. I don’t ask many questions. It’s not my business.

Tons of people like that in town. Tons of people like that everywhere.

There is an automated presumption that poor people are poor because they are incapable of not being poor. The most utterly ridiculous part of the equation are people that whine about how inflation has made things more expensive, but expect it not to impact the poor even more.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, many of the poor are unemployed, so they would only pay higher prices while receiving no benefit from the higher MW which would crush them even more, forcing them to pay higher prices at WalMart, as higher prices are an inevitable result of the higher labor cost. But also the middle-income brackets would pay the higher prices. 100% of consumers must pay higher prices as a result of any MW increase.

How in the world do you expect a greater increase in prices than the minimum wage increase? The problem isn't increased prices, it's decreased (or eliminated) hours.

Hours are being eliminated through automation every year. Workers are inconvenient for reasons more than wages. That shouldn't be a justification for supporting wages that are not remotely sustainable. The US has transitioned to a services economy. Our wage laws should reflect that!

And we need to start coming up with a solution to AI replacing 50% of all employment sooner than later.

 

[Toni]

Tons of people like that in town. Tons of people like that everywhere.

And there are tens of thousands of people that will be joining them every week. 300,000 of them in December at least.

I've lived in this town for 35 years. Things have always been this way in my town. In fact, they are much better than they used to be. The last year or two my kid worked in this town was the only time that workers at his workplace got what might be considered a reasonable raise of almost a dollar an hour. Work places screamed that there were no workers but until the past couple of years, did not pay more than $8/hr. Since then, there's been something of a market correction, shall we say and and wages approach liveable for at least some people.

This is not a large place, meaning I know lots and lots of people at all levels. We have billionaires in our town. The dad of one of the girls who played soccer on my daughter's team was given a BONUS of north of $1M 15 years ago---at a time when the people who worked at his workplace were earning about $8/hr. Mind you, he wasn't the owner but one of the highest people working there. My kids went to school with a number of people who take ski vacations and have summer places and visit Europe regularly. And kids who more frequently did not have all the utilities on at the same time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

 

[Elixir]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Yes, I've definitely noticed how the ones with carts seem to be so much better off now.

 

[Toni]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Those work so well when the sidewalks are full of snow.....

Are you telling ME to get them a cart? There's lots of people in this same position, Loren. How many poor people have you helped in the last year? Decade? Lifetime???