Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

[Worldtraveller]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

LP's "let them eat cake" moment in all its glory.

 

[TV and credit cards]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Those work so well when the sidewalks are full of snow.....

Are you telling ME to get them a cart? There's lots of people in this same position, Loren. How many poor people have you helped in the last year? Decade? Lifetime???

Back in the good old days when the local newspaper's website had a comments section, I found an opportunity to shame my city for its lack of sidewalk along a major roadway here. In the winter, I would see the elderly walking their folding *buggy along the shoulder of the road getting a saltwater spray from passing trucks.
They did finish up the sidewalk some months later. I doubt it was my doing but just in case there is a heaven, it's the story I'm running with.


*Mom always called it a buggy.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Yeah, that's another aspect of LP's dumbass "simple solution". The US is one of the worst places for walking, with very few exceptions. We build our entire infrastructure around the idea of everyone having a car. The nearest grocery store to me now is slightly over 2 miles away. That's not a terrible long walk, but if you don't think a ~40 minute trip to the store is unreasonable, limited by the amount you can carry, then I don't think there's any help for you.

 

[robnisch]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Those work so well when the sidewalks are full of snow.....

Are you telling ME to get them a cart? There's lots of people in this same position, Loren. How many poor people have you helped in the last year? Decade? Lifetime???

LP helped them by giving them a lecture on personal finances.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

 

[southernhybrid]

I found the other article and I'll give it since it was in the NYTimes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/23/...e_code=1.Lk0.Hsjd.gXVjL4ALdhCD&smid=url-share

Nationally, only about 68,000 people on average earned the federal minimum wage in the first seven months of 2023, according to a New York Times analysis of government data. That is less than one of every 1,000 hourly workers. Walmart, once noted for its rock-bottom wages, pays workers at least $14 an hour, even where it can legally pay roughly half that.

Hardly anyone makes $7.25 anymore​

Average number of workers earning federal minimum wage

Note: 2023 data is through July.
Source: Current Population Survey, via IPUMS
By The New York Times
There are still places where the minimum wage has teeth. Thirty states, along with dozens of cities and other local jurisdictions, have set minimums above the federal mark, in some cases linking them to inflation to help ensure that pay keeps up with the cost of living.
But even there, most workers earn more than the legal minimum.
“The minimum wage is almost irrelevant,” said Robert Branca, who owns nearly three dozen Dunkin’ Donuts stores in Massachusetts, where the minimum is $15. “I have to pay what I have to pay.”
As a result, the minimum wage has faded from the economic policy debate. President Biden, who tried and failed to pass a $15 minimum wage during his first year in office, now rarely mentions it, although he has made the economy the centerpiece of his re-election effort. The Service Employees International Union, which helped found the Fight for $15 movement more than a decade ago, has shifted its focus to other policy levers, though it continues to support higher minimum wages.

It seems really silly to say that the minimum wage causes job losses. If it was really high, it might cause a small number of job losses, but pay rates are so low, even with the recent increases, that based on what I've read, even small businesses are managing to pay their workers a lot more than they did in the past. Sure, this can cause some prices to increase, but again, based on my reading, inflation hasn't been due to increased wages. It's a global issue due to supply shortages as well as increased demand for things, especially after the worst part of the pandemic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Those work so well when the sidewalks are full of snow.....

Are you telling ME to get them a cart? There's lots of people in this same position, Loren. How many poor people have you helped in the last year? Decade? Lifetime???

You said you were helping them. I was suggesting a very useful form of help.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

Counting the $7.25s means many states aren't counted.

But you are showing why I keep saying that we can't measure the employment effects from changing the minimum wage--if every $7.25 worker were to lose their job overnight the blip would be undetectable at the federal level. I don't know how concentrated they are whether it could be detected at the state level.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery. Those guys aren't being paid more.

 

[Elixir]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

Counting the $7.25s means many states aren't counted.

But you are showing why I keep saying that we can't measure the employment effects from changing the minimum wage--if every $7.25 worker were to lose their job overnight the blip would be undetectable at the federal level. I don't know how concentrated they are whether it could be detected at the state level.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery. Those guys aren't being paid more.

Y’all had TWO pizza delivery options?
Now you have ZERO?
Third world, dude.
I hope you gave thanks for the good old days when life was good.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

Counting the $7.25s means many states aren't counted.

But you are showing why I keep saying that we can't measure the employment effects from changing the minimum wage--if every $7.25 worker were to lose their job overnight the blip would be undetectable at the federal level. I don't know how concentrated they are whether it could be detected at the state level.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery. Those guys aren't being paid more.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by your first two comments. But, I doubt that anyone has to work for 7.25 an hour, unless for some reason, they love that job or have some reason why they can't do more difficult work.

As far as the delivery guys, there are so many other job opening for them, that I don't think it will be a problem for them to find one. Restaurants almost never delivered prior to the pandemic, at least not where I live. But, if delivering food is someone's dream job, they can always work for DoorDash or something like that.

As the article says, the minimum wage is so insanely low, that it's not even an issue any longer. And from what I've read, even where it's been raised, most employers are having to pay more than that as it's hard to find enough workers to work for 15 or 16 dollars an hour in states that are expensive to live in. The Walmart where I live starting pay is over 14 dollars an hour and they still need help and I live in an area with a lower cost of living compared to most places.

 

[Toni]

They lack sufficiently reliable transportation to make it to the laundry mat on the regular. No on premises laundry. But no reliable transport for laundry. Or doctor’s appointments or jobs or the grocery store. So trips to the grocery store are only for what can be carried the couple of miles home. There’s a car but no money for registration which also requires proof of insurance.

Get them a cart. The folding wire-frame things you often see the elderly using.

Those work so well when the sidewalks are full of snow.....

Are you telling ME to get them a cart? There's lots of people in this same position, Loren. How many poor people have you helped in the last year? Decade? Lifetime???

You said you were helping them. I was suggesting a very useful form of help.

Not really useful, tho, Loren. Winters here are hard. I struggle with a grocery cart from the store to my car if it snowed/is snowing a lot and I had to go out and the store lot hasn’t been done yet. Nearest laundry is a few blocks away—rough going with a cart. Not that I don’t see grocery carts that have been ‘borrowed’ and then abandoned a few blocks from the downtown grocery store. Those carts you are talking about will not hold a family’s weekly laundry, so it’s multiple trips a week—difficult to do when you are also working whatever hours you can get.

Add in a 3 year old and that few blocks that is doable in the warm weather is really not in cold weather months.

The struggle is real. When we were first married with small kids, the laundry in our complex was in a different t building than the one we lived in, which was hard enough. When a friend finished grad school, and they bought their first house, the first thing she showed me was not the kitchen or the living room or the bathroom(s)!! but the laundry room. It was like a miracle. And one I appreciated in the extreme when my husband finished grad school and we were in our first ( rented) house with laundry in the basement.

I understand you mean well and perhaps in a different location/different environment that would be an excellent idea. I would put the utmost faith in your recommendations for hiking in your area —I know you have tons of expertise. But in this circumstance, you are as clueless as I would be in the desert mountains

 

[bilby]

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery.

No, you haven't.

You've seen them react to a completely unrelated change in the marketplace, by outsourcing delivery.

Pizzas are still getting delivered; People are still being employed to deliver pizzas.

To the delivery people, the only change is the logo on their shirt, which used to say "Dominos" or "Pizza Hut", and now says "Doordash" or "Uber Eats".

This change isn't a reaction to minimum wage changes; It's a reaction to the appearance of food delivery companies as a separate specialisation.

Specialisation can often improve efficiency; And if and when it does, companies will either embrace it, or be outcompeted. Regardless of wage levels.

The entire history of employment has been a series of people being laid off for a bewildering array of reasons; Restructuring, mechanisation, outsourcing, technological progress, redundancy, etc., etc., and so people are constantly being put out of work.

The entire history of employment has also been one of rising wages, as workers demand to be paid at least a small share of the ever increasing profits that technology and mechanisation has enabled those workers to generate.

And yet, every time that anyone gets a pay rise that coincides with job losses, the employers have grabbed the Post hoc fallacy with both hands, and told us that the reason was the completely unreasonable demand that increased productivity of workers should lead to increased income.

It's bollocks. It was always bollocks. People don't employ un-needed workers just because they are cheap, or just so they can sack them when the government increases the minimum wage rate. They just don't.

In every example of minimum wage increases followed by job losses (including your beloved American Samoa), we find on closer examination that the wage increase wasn't the main reason, or wasn't even part of the reason, for the job losses.

Pizza delivery drivers would have been sacked at any wage, when the pizza shops decided to outsource to Doordash. And those delivery jobs didn't vanish - they just moved from one company to another.

 

[Toni]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

Counting the $7.25s means many states aren't counted.

But you are showing why I keep saying that we can't measure the employment effects from changing the minimum wage--if every $7.25 worker were to lose their job overnight the blip would be undetectable at the federal level. I don't know how concentrated they are whether it could be detected at the state level.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery. Those guys aren't being paid more.

There are multiple reasons that there are not many pizza delivery places with delivery anymore. DoorDash and similar are one. The other, and one that Door Dash and similar will be contending with is that home delivery can be very dangerous and is largely undercompensated, with many customers choosing not to tip for delivery or believing as my late father did that $1 was a generous tip. Not as many people are willing to take risky jobs that are underpaid and otherwise undercompensated any more.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/success/minimum-wage-increases-2024/index.html

22 states are raising the minimum wage, but I read another article that said that since almost everyone is making far more than the federal minimum wage, the minimum has become almost useless. The other article said that about 1 person in 1000 still makes only 7.25 an hour. I'm surprised it's that high. The article said that employers can't hire enough people unless they pay about 14 or 15 an hour and in some places that's too low. Just sayin'. It's still hard to live on 15 dollars an hour unless there is a second income in the home and/or the person is receiving other help, like the EIC, or help with rent etc.

Counting the $7.25s means many states aren't counted.

But you are showing why I keep saying that we can't measure the employment effects from changing the minimum wage--if every $7.25 worker were to lose their job overnight the blip would be undetectable at the federal level. I don't know how concentrated they are whether it could be detected at the state level.

For anyone working a minimum wage job in this new year, they will be paid more in 22 states and in at least 40 cities and counties across the country than they were in 2023.

The higher hourly rates are due either to scheduled increases or lawmakers having indexed the minimum wage in their jurisdiction to inflation, most typically using the Consumer Price Index as their gauge.

As of January 1, seven states and the District of Columbia will have minimum wages of $15 or more, up from just four states plus DC last year. The newcomers to the category are Maryland, New Jersey and most of New York State (with the exception of New York City, Westchester and Long Island, which already had a $15 minimum in place and where the minimum wage is increasing to $16 in 2024).

We have already seen two pizza chains react by eliminating delivery. Those guys aren't being paid more.

Wait... how did you you know that? I thought that stuff was undetectable?

 

[Toni]

I wanted to point out the rather enormous social costs to having a segment of the population undercompensated —ie, not earning a liveable wage, much less a comfortable one. One glaring example would be in the social/sociatal burden of substance abuse. Certainly plenty of wealth people excessively use and/or abuse various substances, legal and illegal. But most people are not wealthy and a large portion of people who earn subsistence wages struggle with substance abuse as a consequence of the extreme stress that accompanies insecurity in income, housing, food and health care, as well as being stuck in poverty with few ways to exit. These are not confined to the unemployed or underpaid but also are visited most heavily upon their family members, most tragically on a personal level but also on a societal level upon their children, who lack adequate parenting, adequate food, housing, medical care and very often, adequate education. They see their parents and family members deal with stresses by using and it becomes the normal way of coping, just as the hopelessness of escaping to a better life becomes inevitable. And thus continues a cycle of poverty and decline. FWIW, I’m thinking of this issue primarily in small towns and rural areas because I’m most familiar with life in those areas. Having spent considerable time with many young children, I can tell you for certain that preschoolers who are born in poverty are as likely to be deeply intelligent, creative, talented, thoughtful, kind, funny, sweet, endearing as the children of middle class, and wealthy, well educated parents. But it does not take too many years for a system which sees poor people as being less capable and less valuable to catch up and beat down those precious kids. I have watched the parents of preschoolers in anti-poverty programs show profound discomfort inside a school setting because school for them was not a good place where they were supported or successful but instead were expected to fail—were set up to fail in hundreds of ways, some unintentional and some very deliberate. In the town where I live now, for kids of my generation, if you wanted to get into college prep classes in high school—you had to be in band. Which cost money, required time and space outside of school to practice, transportation to performances and appropriate performance clothing and shoes and time to be at all the required events. Beyond the reach of a lot of kids, not to mention if you were like me ( I did NOT grow up here) and were tone deaf and a bit hard of hearing with musical ability in the negative numbers range. So certain kinds of kids from certain kinds of families got to take certain classes in high school and everyone else could pound sand and work in factories. In my home town, we were frequently told that band kids were smarter, especially in math because music was so math oriented. As if art is not. As if there are not many types of academic talents and abilities.

I know how similar prejudices affected my parents—and the pressure they put on their children to succeed.

I will close with the following anecdote: my kids are all self supporting adults and have been for some years. Recently, two of them started being paid significantly more money than they had been a year ago. One changed career paths, which helped, but even within the new job stated being paid on a higher scale, the other finally got a much deserved pay increase as the pay structure improved dramatically enough that his employer was able to hire sufficient staff—meaning that not only did my adult offspring earn significant can’t more but their workload decreased as significantly. Yay for them, right? But the real win here is to see on their faces, to listen to their voices, to see the change in their body language and demeanor the massive reduction in stress. I would rate it as about equal to MY drop in stress when I retired.

Paying people decent wages that allow them to have stability and a chance to improve their lives has enormous implications for society at all levels.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As far as the delivery guys, there are so many other job opening for them, that I don't think it will be a problem for them to find one. Restaurants almost never delivered prior to the pandemic, at least not where I live. But, if delivering food is someone's dream job, they can always work for DoorDash or something like that.

The point is the thread claims minimum wage doesn't cost jobs. We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Just because they probably can find jobs doesn't rebut reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

 

[lpetrich]

If increasing the minimum wage destroys jobs, then it's a good way to fight inflation.

So if it's important to avoid having a lot of inflation, then having a high minimum wage would be a good thing to have.

 

[bilby]

We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Except that the example in question is of companies reacting to a new business model (outsourced delivery), and not to a minimum wage hike at all.

And their reaction was to move positions from their own business, to other businesses, such as Doordash. No positions have been eliminated; Every pizza delivered before the change will be delivered after the change - pizza delivery is still a job, and hasn't been eliminated at all.

So we have an example of companies reacting to something other than a minimum wage hike, by restructuring in a way that doesn't eliminate any positions. This wasn't a consequence of changes to minimum wage, any more than this morning's sunrise was a consequence of my banging the bongo drums.

This is NOT support for your beliefs, any more than the American Samoa non-example was.

You are having to significantly distort what is happening in order to persuade yourself that it's evidence in support of your position. You might succeed in misleading yourself by so doing, but nobody else is buying it.