Minnesota has a new flag

[Emily Lake]

So any exemption granted to anyone to any ordnance is de facto submission to something?

Are you, as an atheist, actually supporting the government granting an exemption from law on the basis of a specific religion, when such an exemption imposes recognition of that religion on people who do not share that faith? You're supporting the government showing favoritism to a religion?

Unless you can show that city of Minneapolis has denied similar requests from other religions, your question has no basis in fact.

And atheism or theism has nothing whatsoever to do with the logic that granting an exemption means de facto submission.

My point had nothing to do with Minneapolis, it had to do with your personal position. And I said nothing about submission.

Do you support governments granting special exemptions on the basis of specific religions from the laws that all others are expected to respect?

 

[Emily Lake]

The free exercise of religion part. Really, stop pretending to be obtuse.

I have skepticism. I mean, sure, free exercise of religion, no problem. Imposition of religion on people who don't share that view, however, is not something I've seen you support in the past. I could be wrong, but I believe you supported requiring cake makers to bake same-sex wedding cakes, even if their religion were opposed to it - in that case, you didn't believe that the first amendment granted anyone the right to impose their personal religious beliefs on others.

When you can make a convincing case that a call to prayer is an imposition of religious beliefs on others while the ringing of church bells is not, then I will consider your question as relevant.

I think that a call to prayer that is granted a special exemption from noise laws is an imposition, especially when some of those calls are in the middle of the night when non-believers in islam are sleeping. I would likewise believe that granting catholic churches a special exemption to ring their bells at midnight would be an imposition.

Why do you believe it is NOT an imposition to subject people who are not muslim to 3:00 AM calls to prayer that interrupt their sleep?

 

[Elixir]

When you can make a convincing case that a call to prayer is an imposition of religious beliefs on others while the ringing of church bells is not, then I will consider your question as relevant.

Does it have to clear that bar? Can’t the simple fact that it’s annoying suffice? It’s just superstitious nonsense, so what makes it okay to impose on others at all, whether it’s to accost them at airports or to raise a ruckus in the middle of the night? A public nuisance is what it is.

 

[laughing dog]

So any exemption granted to anyone to any ordnance is de facto submission to something?

Are you, as an atheist, actually supporting the government granting an exemption from law on the basis of a specific religion, when such an exemption imposes recognition of that religion on people who do not share that faith? You're supporting the government showing favoritism to a religion?

Unless you can show that city of Minneapolis has denied similar requests from other religions, your question has no basis in fact.

And atheism or theism has nothing whatsoever to do with the logic that granting an exemption means de facto submission.

My point had nothing to do with Minneapolis, it had to do with your personal position. And I said nothing about submission.

Read my response that promoted you to ask.

Do you support governments granting special exemptions on the basis of specific religions from the laws that all others are expected to respect?

Your question assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[laughing dog]

The free exercise of religion part. Really, stop pretending to be obtuse.

I have skepticism. I mean, sure, free exercise of religion, no problem. Imposition of religion on people who don't share that view, however, is not something I've seen you support in the past. I could be wrong, but I believe you supported requiring cake makers to bake same-sex wedding cakes, even if their religion were opposed to it - in that case, you didn't believe that the first amendment granted anyone the right to impose their personal religious beliefs on others.

When you can make a convincing case that a call to prayer is an imposition of religious beliefs on others while the ringing of church bells is not, then I will consider your question as relevant.

I think that a call to prayer that is granted a special exemption from noise laws is an imposition, especially when some of those calls are in the middle of the night when non-believers in islam are sleeping. I would likewise believe that granting catholic churches a special exemption to ring their bells at midnight would be an imposition.

Why do you believe it is NOT an imposition to subject people who are not muslim to 3:00 AM calls to prayer that interrupt their sleep?

It is an imposition to anyone who is trying to sleep just like bells at 8 am or 5 pm are an imposition to anyone who is trying to sleep.

 

[laughing dog]

When you can make a convincing case that a call to prayer is an imposition of religious beliefs on others while the ringing of church bells is not, then I will consider your question as relevant.

Does it have to clear that bar? Can’t the simple fact that it’s annoying suffice? It’s just superstitious nonsense, so what makes it okay to impose on others at all, whether it’s to accost them at airports or to raise a ruckus in the middle of the night? A public nuisance is what it is.

It does for me.

 

[Toni]

That's too bad because your "It's only fauxgressive internalized islamophilia that blinds you to it." is classic bigoted stupidity.

No, it's not. It's accurate description of what is commonly known as "Islamoleftism".

Yes, Christmas has a long history in the West as a holiday because Islam doesn't have a long history in the West.

And it has been ingrained in the culture that most of the holiday is quite secular. It is in no way comparable to blaring amplified calls to prayer at 3 AM.

Whether you like it or not, Muslims have the right to the free exercise of their religion guaranteed by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution.

They do. They do not have the right to wake up the whole neighborhood while doing it. If they want to be woken up at 3AM, they can set an alarm clock or use a salat app or something. There is no need to blare calls to prayer from minarets.

Really, what are the next steps now that "the camel's nose is in the tent". Be specific,.

Look at what's happening in Europe. Muslims are taking over bit by bit. Even in the US, there are instances of it. Like Hamtramck, which is entirely taken over by Islam.
Michigan city gets ready to inaugurate all-Muslim government
Hamtramck's story of islamization also started with allowing Islamic "calls to prayer" five times a day.
Mich. town upholds Muslim call to prayer
The camel stuck its nose in Hamtramck tent in 2004 with the calls to prayer, took over completely in 2021, and even helped Trump get elected in 2024 because they hate LGBT+ so much.
A Muslim Mayor Endorses Trump, and a City of Immigrants Finds Itself Undone

Only a fool would think that political Islam is not a threat to western liberalism.

You have no clue what I would do or not do. I live peaceably within earshot of the carillions or bells of 8 Christian churches.

How many of them blast amplified calls to prayer at 3 AM in the Summer?

None, but plenty ring their bells early in the morning.

But there are plenty of exemptions in the Minneapolis noise policy that are discriminatory but escape your SJW instincts.

The SJW is you. And give me some concrete examples of these "plenty of exemptions".

Nah, I am not fighting discrimination, you are. Educate yourself - Minneapolis Noise Ordinance. Section 389.60 is the relevant part.

Would I have approved the exemption as written? No.

Then why are you so hell-bent to defend it?

I am not hell-bent on anything. The people of Minneapolis have spoken through their elected representatives. As far as I know, this has not spread throughout the US. So why are you obsessed this? If you think Minneapolis is filled with leftists, then you need to get used to their lefty ideas because they are not listening to someone in Georgia whine about they wish to organize and live their lives,

But the citizens of Minneapolis seem okay with it.

All of them? Or is it the fauxgressive far-left city council that is ok with it?

You've had ample opportunity to present evidence of complaints. You have come up with nothing but your bigoted opinions. Did any of the council members lose their seats over this issue? Clearly, it is not a big deal there.

You're the one who resurrected the debate in this thread. Its you and your ilk who have problems with this. Not me.

I have not resurrected the thread. And I never accused you of having any problems with political Islam and its spread.

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

 

[Emily Lake]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

 

[laughing dog]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Toni is talking about the US, so that part of your response is irrelevant.

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

Islam has no power in the US. Christofacsism is alive and kicking in the US. It drove the revocation of Roe V Wade, and the resulting wave of abortion restrictions. It is driving the attack on public education. It is highly correlated with white supremacy. It is one of the driving blocs that support Trump. If you don't understand that, either you have not been paying attention the last 8 years or so or you don't notice because you are a sympathizer.

 

[Toni]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

Have you heard of Project 2025?

We may think that there’s a coming revolution between the blue and red but let me tell you that I think Trump has a lot to fear from the christo fascists when he’s destroyed enough of our institutions that they will be able to slide right into that vacancy when Trump croaks.

There are colonies right now. —a dear friend’s niece has joined one, although it is not entirely clear how much of this move was her own free choice or not. Small scale but make no mistake, it’s definitely christofascism. And it’s growing.

I also think you truly do not know many or any Muslims of any political or religious stripe.

 

[lpetrich]

I'd like to get back to redesigning US state flags.

Vexillology: for all you flag lovers out there! - "A subreddit for those who enjoy learning about flags, their place in society past and present, and their design characteristics."

r/flags - "We're similar to r/vexilollogy but with much fewer rules."

Both subreddits, as reddit subforums are called at reddit, have plenty of redesigned flags of US states, flags redesigned by the subreddits' contributors.

Like these ones for my current state of residence:

• State of Oregon Redesign : r/vexillology
• Who thinks that Oregon should just use back side of their flag as a regular one? : r/vexillology
• Oregon should be the next state to join the redesign trend : r/vexillology

The current Oregon flag is unique in having a different design on each side. The front one is a "seal on a bedsheet" with "State of Oregon" above the state seal and "1859" below it. The back side shows a beaver on a log. Both sides have yellow designs on a blue background.

All three of them have the Oregon beaver on them, with the first one having Cascadia-flag colors, the second one having the original colors, and the third one having three horizontal stripes, like the Cascadia flag, and also "State of Oregon" and "1859".

The Cascadia flag?  Doug flag - three horizontal stripes, from top to bottom blue, white, and dark green, with a depiction of a Douglas fir tree in black on top. That depiction seems visually too complicated to me, and I'd like a stylized conifer tree instead.

 

[ZiprHead]

Did Pete Buttigieg move to Minnesota?

What?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suggest you read the 1st Amendment to the Constitution with comprehension (unlike the response in this thread).

Which part of it gives exemption from noise ordinances to Muslims?

Apparently Minneapolis ordinances allow Islamic calls to prayer. Can you show me which part of the US constitution forbids cities from enacting noise ordinances? Can you show me where the Minneapolis noise ordinance specifically grants rights to Muslims that it does not give to other citizens?

I live in a town where church bells are rung frequently. They do not bother me and in fact, I barely notice. But it took me a lot of effort and repeated letters to get the local university and the local Catholic high school who uses the university’s football field to quit blasting their football commentary so loud that I could not stand to be in my own yard, blocks away. Btw, each game lasted MUCH longer than any call to prayer —and in fact, were actually painful, bringing to near migraines if I tried to take leaves.

Observation here: We used to stay at her parent's place in Shanghai, there's a Buddhist temple across the street with amplified sounds. It would bother me, my wife never noticed. And the incessant honking of the traffic doesn't wake her, either--but she's much more sensitive to the noises she did not grow up with, especially the HVAC. I think we do a much better job of tuning out the sounds we grew up with. Far more people grew up with church bells than mosques.

 

[Toni]

I suggest you read the 1st Amendment to the Constitution with comprehension (unlike the response in this thread).

Which part of it gives exemption from noise ordinances to Muslims?

Apparently Minneapolis ordinances allow Islamic calls to prayer. Can you show me which part of the US constitution forbids cities from enacting noise ordinances? Can you show me where the Minneapolis noise ordinance specifically grants rights to Muslims that it does not give to other citizens?

I live in a town where church bells are rung frequently. They do not bother me and in fact, I barely notice. But it took me a lot of effort and repeated letters to get the local university and the local Catholic high school who uses the university’s football field to quit blasting their football commentary so loud that I could not stand to be in my own yard, blocks away. Btw, each game lasted MUCH longer than any call to prayer —and in fact, were actually painful, bringing to near migraines if I tried to take leaves.

Observation here: We used to stay at her parent's place in Shanghai, there's a Buddhist temple across the street with amplified sounds. It would bother me, my wife never noticed. And the incessant honking of the traffic doesn't wake her, either--but she's much more sensitive to the noises she did not grow up with, especially the HVAC. I think we do a much better job of tuning out the sounds we grew up with. Far more people grew up with church bells than mosques.

Far more people in Minneapolis grew up around church bells than mosques’ calls to prayers.

At one time, I lived less than a block from an active railroad track, in a small, otherwise se quiet town. It really bothered me the first week and then: not at all. A friend lives at a busy intersection —she no longer notices the sounds of the traffic.

People get accustomed to sounds.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

At this point I'm a lot more scared of the Christians than the Muslims.

 

[Emily Lake]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

At this point I'm a lot more scared of the Christians than the Muslims.

As a female of the human species, I do not share that view.

 

[laughing dog]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

At this point I'm a lot more scared of the Christians than the Muslims.

As a female of the human species, I do not share that view.

If you live in the US, you should.

 

[TomC]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

At this point I'm a lot more scared of the Christians than the Muslims.

As a female of the human species, I do not share that view.

If you live in the US, you should.

But as a member of the human family, I see what she means.
We are not all protected from the Abrahamic heretics as well as we Americans are. And that's going south really fast here in the Good Old USA.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

I’m actually a lot more concerned with Christofascism than I am about Muslim influence. For many years now I’ve been rather stunned that right wing Christians failed to see exactly how similar their social and political policy was/is to right wing Islam. I would expect that people such as yourself to see and recognize the similarities and be both amused and horrified at the lack of awareness.

Can you name any country that is currently a christian theocracy*? Or which requires strict adherence to a christian faith and persecutes those that hold a different faith? What far right christian organizations currently advocate to exclude females from school? Or disallow women to venture out in public without a male relative to escort them? Or forbid women from showing any part of their body? Or that will execute a woman for having been raped?

Some evangelical and fundamentalist christian sects are fairly extreme in their views, sure. But none of them come anywhere close to Islam, none of them have anywhere near the power that Islam does. To say you're more concerned about christofascism is willful naivete.

*Technically Vatican city is a christian theocracy, but it's also tiny, has no military, and doesn't wield any material political power throughout the world.

At this point I'm a lot more scared of the Christians than the Muslims.

As a female of the human species, I do not share that view.

If you live in the US, you should.

Turns out I care about women around the globe. Crazy, I know.