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More peaceful Muslims murder people ...

since 1967 Israel has tried to work on the peace process, but the Palestinian leaders are literally terrorists and terrorist sympathizers, even the supposedly "moderate" Fatah.
Yeah. ”Tried to work in the peace process”? Didnt go so well did it? If Isreal really wanted peace then why allowing the settlers? Why constantly harrassing palestinians? Why repeatedly breaking peace treaties?
Seems that Israel has a lot of bad luck when @trying to work on the peace process”...
 
It isn't 1948. Palestinians are today born into what is essentially a prison colony or concentration camp. They didn't ask to be born there. They didn't do anything in 1948. Their grandparents did.

Using 1948 as an excuse to continue oppressing these people is patently absurd.
That was clearly only one part of the argument.

It was the first bullshit part, though.

The Palestinians couldn't have formed their own state in 1948 because heavily armed Zionists had seized the developed land and infrastructure necessary to establish and maintain one (because they needed it to establish and maintain Israel), had made close to a million of them refugees, were busily expelling thousands of others, and were absolutely against allowing anything of the sort in what they considered Eretz Yisrael.

The Palestinians weren't organized, weren't well funded, and for the most part weren't armed. They were entirely incapable of withstanding the onslaught of Zionists flooding out of Europe with the specific intention of creating their own State in Palestine.

Derec makes it sound like all the Palestinians had to do was say "okay, this part here is Palestine and right over there is the border", and the Zionists would have respected that. It's horseshit, and everyone who knows anything about the history of the region knows it.
 
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More or less seconded with regards to this particular event.

Wrong.

There is no moral or other equivalence between Israel and Palestinians. The murdered police officer and security guards were there to protect everybody, including the Palestinian workers. The Palestinian was just a cowardly murderer, and those who celebrate his actions just because he murdered some Israelis, are despicable as well.

Do you think things will improve or worsen for Palestinian workers crossing that checkpoint in response to this attack?

You're right, there is no moral equivalency: one side has transferred half a million people to land that doesn't belong to it, and has relegated the native population to slave labor who has to pass through heavily guarded checkpoints to be able to scrape a meager living.

When Palestinians invade Israel and start setting up checkpoints in the outskirts of Haifa or Tel Aviv, then we can talk about equivalency.
 
It isn't 1948. Palestinians are today born into what is essentially a prison colony or concentration camp. They didn't ask to be born there. They didn't do anything in 1948. Their grandparents did.

Using 1948 as an excuse to continue oppressing these people is patently absurd.
That was clearly only one part of the argument.

Yeah, the other part was that democracy is a non-starter if it might lead to outcomes you don't want.

Presumably he recognised that as too fucking pathetic to be worthy of a response.
 
Indeed. And the Holocaust guilt and accusations of anti-Semitism when people criticize Israel is also absurd. Thankfully Derec didn't go there.

If Holocaust guilt means the "Jewish people need a state of their own" then would it not have been more fitting to place it in Germany?
 
It isn't 1948. Palestinians are today born into what is essentially a prison colony or concentration camp. They didn't ask to be born there. They didn't do anything in 1948. Their grandparents did.

Using 1948 as an excuse to continue oppressing these people is patently absurd.

Yup, the Arabs make it a prison camp so it's easy to use them as cannon fodder against Israel.
 
since 1967 Israel has tried to work on the peace process, but the Palestinian leaders are literally terrorists and terrorist sympathizers, even the supposedly "moderate" Fatah.
Yeah. ”Tried to work in the peace process”? Didnt go so well did it? If Isreal really wanted peace then why allowing the settlers? Why constantly harrassing palestinians? Why repeatedly breaking peace treaties?
Seems that Israel has a lot of bad luck when @trying to work on the peace process”...

Because fools believe the Palestinians.

The settlers have nothing to do with it--the war existed before the settlers existed. Back then they argued for the 48 borders (what the partition gave them before they decided on the path of war instead.)

It's been the same strategy all along--pick the most recent thing to blame for the war and pretend that giving it up would bring peace. It never brings peace, the goalposts just move. There will not be peace so long as billions pour in contingent upon war. (And note we are even guilty of this. If there were peace the Palestinian Authority wouldn't need propping up.)
 
Yeah. ”Tried to work in the peace process”? Didnt go so well did it? If Isreal really wanted peace then why allowing the settlers? Why constantly harrassing palestinians? Why repeatedly breaking peace treaties?
Seems that Israel has a lot of bad luck when @trying to work on the peace process”...

Because fools believe the Palestinians.

The settlers have nothing to do with it--the war existed before the settlers existed. Back then they argued for the 48 borders (what the partition gave them before they decided on the path of war instead.)

It's been the same strategy all along--pick the most recent thing to blame for the war and pretend that giving it up would bring peace. It never brings peace, the goalposts just move. There will not be peace so long as billions pour in contingent upon war. (And note we are even guilty of this. If there were peace the Palestinian Authority wouldn't need propping up.)
Nor the gov't of Israel - the largest recipient of US foreign aid.
 
It isn't 1948. Palestinians are today born into what is essentially a prison colony or concentration camp. They didn't ask to be born there. They didn't do anything in 1948. Their grandparents did.

Using 1948 as an excuse to continue oppressing these people is patently absurd.

Yup, the Arabs make it a prison camp so it's easy to use them as cannon fodder against Israel.

Last I checked, it was contained within Israel. Is that incorrect? Is the land on which Palestinians now live not part of Israel?

If it is part of Israel, then it is Israel keeping the Palestinian people oppressed. They should be given either equal voting rights, or their independence. Israel shouldn't have its cake and eat it too.
 
That was clearly only one part of the argument.

It was the first bullshit part, though.

The Palestinians couldn't have formed their own state in 1948 because heavily armed Zionists had seized the developed land and infrastructure necessary to establish and maintain one (because they needed it to establish and maintain Israel), had made close to a million of them refugees, were busily expelling thousands of others, and were absolutely against allowing anything of the sort in what they considered Eretz Yisrael.

It's not Israel's fault that the Muslims there didn't develop their land. The 48 partition was based on where people actually lived, not on where the resources were.

And the Jews had as many refugees to cope with as the Palestinians--and those refugees generally hadn't been able to keep their property, unlike the Palestinian ones. Israel simply marched on, the Palestinians sat and cried.

The Palestinians weren't organized, weren't well funded, and for the most part weren't armed. They were entirely incapable of withstanding the onslaught of Zionists flooding out of Europe with the specific intention of creating their own State in Palestine.

Nobody was well funded or armed.

Derec makes it sound like all the Palestinians had to do was say "okay, this part here is Palestine and right over there is the border", and the Zionists would have respected that. It's horseshit, and everyone who knows anything about the history of the region knows it.

The Palestinians have never even tried. They're not interested in half, they want it all.
 
Indeed. And the Holocaust guilt and accusations of anti-Semitism when people criticize Israel is also absurd. Thankfully Derec didn't go there.

If Holocaust guilt means the "Jewish people need a state of their own" then would it not have been more fitting to place it in Germany?
Because Jews were not trying so long to get a state in Germany.
 
It was the first bullshit part, though.

The Palestinians couldn't have formed their own state in 1948 because heavily armed Zionists had seized the developed land and infrastructure necessary to establish and maintain one (because they needed it to establish and maintain Israel), had made close to a million of them refugees, were busily expelling thousands of others, and were absolutely against allowing anything of the sort in what they considered Eretz Yisrael.

It's not Israel's fault that the Muslims there didn't develop their land.

You're not this ignorant. You know as well as well as I do that much of Palestine was developed and openly coveted by Ben Gurion, Weitz, and other prominent Zionist leaders. You know this because you have read the excepts of their speeches and writings that I have posted over the years. You especially know about the extensive orange groves, and how Ben Gurion emphasized the importance of seizing them from the Palestinians because the proposed Jewish State was going to need the cash the citrus crop brought in each year.

Anyway, it's good to see you're finally at the point you can admit it was Palestinian land, even if you still think Jews had some kind of right to take it if the Palestinians weren't using it in a Zionist approved fashion.

The 48 partition was based on where people actually lived, not on where the resources were.

Not really. It was based on giving 30% of the population (mostly recently arrived immigrants from Europe) over 50% of the land and screwing over the indigenous population because the European powers preferred working with other Europeans in carving up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.

Had it been based on where people lived, the Jews would have been allocated 2 districts, one in Tel Aviv and the other in parts of Jerusalem. Being thinly scattered elsewhere and less than 1/3 of the population in total (up from about 1/10th of the population a mere 20 years prior), a fair allocation would have kept Palestine whole.

And the Jews had as many refugees to cope with as the Palestinians--and those refugees generally hadn't been able to keep their property, unlike the Palestinian ones. Israel simply marched on, the Palestinians sat and cried.

So the Palestinians should be more like the Zionists? Don't just sit and cry, grab a gun and use it? Does that include carrying out a Palestinian version of Plan Dalet or Plan Hiram? Because if so, wow, you've certainly changed your tune.

The Palestinians weren't organized, weren't well funded, and for the most part weren't armed. They were entirely incapable of withstanding the onslaught of Zionists flooding out of Europe with the specific intention of creating their own State in Palestine.

Nobody was well funded or armed.

The Zionists were well enough funded to have large shipments of arms and other supplies coming into ports like Haifa in the 1940s. Palestinians had nothing even close to that.

Derec makes it sound like all the Palestinians had to do was say "okay, this part here is Palestine and right over there is the border", and the Zionists would have respected that. It's horseshit, and everyone who knows anything about the history of the region knows it.

The Palestinians have never even tried.

Don't be silly.

The Palestinians were as active as Zionists in pressuring the British to recognize their State under the British Mandate rule. That led to the creation of Transjordan when the British left. Later, the King of Jordan recognized the right of the Palestinian people to form their own separate state. Zionists have never accepted it, largely because they claim they have a right to that part of the world that supersedes the rights of the indigenous people, and the US has supported the Zionists because reasons.

The Palestinians haven't yet achieved international recognition of their State, although they're getting pretty close, especially at the UN. But to say the Palestinian people have never even tried to form a state is utterly ridiculous. You're not this ignorant.

They're not interested in half, they want it all.

So did the Zionists who rejected the UN Partition Plan and carried out Plan Dalet instead.

Oh, that's right. You never remember that part, either.
 
It isn't 1948.
Really? Who said it was?
Palestinians are today born into what is essentially a prison colony or concentration camp.
Oh bullshit. It would make it the world's nicest.
30738ea4-b91b-4bc9-9193-a03271dc493b.JPG

gazamall.jpg

gaza-city-gaza-strip-palestinian-territory-23rd-sep-2015-a-palestinian-F2RH78.jpg

If you only look at the Pallywood propaganda photos you of course get a different impression, but you could get equally or more impressive urban blight porn in places like Detroit.

They didn't ask to be born there. They didn't do anything in 1948. Their grandparents did.
But they did choose to shoot rockets at Israel or to dig tunnels into Israel or to strap bombs on themselves and blow up Israeli children or to stab/shoot Israelis. They also chose to support terrorist groups like Hamas and supposedly moderate Fatah.
Using 1948 as an excuse to continue oppressing these people is patently absurd.
I am not using 1948 as excuse for anything. But it is a fact that Palestinians could have had their state then. And also many times since then. But they chose the path of terrorism.
 
So what? You think its a big deal that Palestinians support his action?
Yes it is a big deal. It shows that most Palestinians are not interested in peace but in killing Israelis.
Because of course you're aware that's just an expression of personal opinion, which people like YOU
People like me?
insist cannot be considered an act of violence...Until it's later convenient for you to imply I suppose.
I did not say it was an act of violence. But it is a personal opinion opposed to peace and in support of terrorism. As such, it is very relevant.
 
Yeah. ”Tried to work in the peace process”? Didnt go so well did it?
No, it did not. Thanks to Palestinians being more interested in terrorism against Israel then in developing their economy and infrastructure.
Look at what happened when Israel left Gaza. Immediately terrorists from Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. started shooting rockets. That's why there is a blockade and why there have been three military engagements in Gaza between 2008 and 2014.
Palestinians get a lot of international aid. But most of it is wasted on blood money for terrorists or digging terror tunnels.
idf-tunnels-2.jpg

If Isreal really wanted peace then why allowing the settlers?
Settlers are a thorny issue. For one, Israel was able to gain that territory because they won the war of aggression started against them in 1967. Why does Poland get to keep a big chunk of Germany but Israel can't keep a few settlements in Judea and Samaria.
Then there is the name. West Bank is a deliberately artificial name designed to erase Israelite connection to Judea and Samaria, core areas of the Southern and Northern Kingdoms respectively.

I think the issue of settlements should be addressed through negotiations. Maybe annex the bigger settlements to Israel along with East Jerusalem and give other land or money or a combination as compensation.

Why constantly harrassing palestinians?
If you mean security measures, they are necessitated by the threat of terrorism by Palestinians. There have even been cases where medical patients from Gaza, treated in Israel, have been used by Hamas as explosives mules. And yes, Israel treats many Palestinian in their hospitals. "Death to Israel, but do take care of my cancer" could be the motto of the PLO.

Why repeatedly breaking peace treaties?
What peace treaty did Israel break? And when? (give at least two instances)
[Seems that Israel has a lot of bad luck when @trying to work on the peace process”...
Nothing to do with "bad luck" but with their supposed partners for peace.
 
Derec, a plush prison is still a prison. Lack of freedom and self determination is exact that, no matter how much you dress it up.

Are Palestinians Israeli citizens or not?
 
And Derec, if Antifa operated in your neighborhood and launched a violent attack on the Trump government, would that justify stripping you of your rights as an American citizen and equating you with Antifa because you live in that same neighborhood?
 
It was the first bullshit part, though.
As always, wrong.
The Palestinians couldn't have formed their own state in 1948 because heavily armed Zionists had seized the developed land and infrastructure necessary to establish and maintain one (because they needed it to establish and maintain Israel),
The Palestinians could have established their own state according to the UN partition plan, as Israel agreed to it. Palestinians and their Arab brothers decided to attack Israel with the purpose of destroying and making the entire territory Arab Muslim.
had made close to a million of them refugees,
Only after they got attacked by Arab forces. And 700k is not that close to a million.

were busily expelling thousands of others, and were absolutely against allowing anything of the sort in what they considered Eretz Yisrael.
Again: Israel agreed to the partition plan. Arabs rejected it.

The Palestinians weren't organized, weren't well funded, and for the most part weren't armed.
Israel had just been proclaimed as a country when they were attacked by several established Arab countries such as Egypt, Transjordan and Syria. You are spreading propaganda.

They were entirely incapable of withstanding the onslaught of Zionists flooding out of Europe with the specific intention of creating their own State in Palestine.
You got that 180° wrong. It was the Arab armies who attacked Israel with the express purpose of destroying the fledgling Jewish state, but Israel was luckily capable of withstanding that onslaught.

Derec makes it sound like all the Palestinians had to do was say "okay, this part here is Palestine and right over there is the border", and the Zionists would have respected that.
In 1948, all they had to do was agree to the partition plan. Of course the more wars are waged against Israel, and more terrorist acts are committed, the more difficult it becomes for them to get a state.
Of course, in 1948 "Palestinians" did not even exist as a claimed national entity. They were viewed as no different than other Arabs around them.

It's horseshit, and everyone who knows anything about the history of the region knows it.
You obviously are not among those who know anything about the history of the region, because you got pretty much everything about the 1st Arab-Israel war wrong.
 
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