You're not this ignorant. You know as well as well as I do that much of Palestine was developed and openly coveted by Ben Gurion, Weitz, and other prominent Zionist leaders. You know this because you have read the excepts of their speeches and writings that I have posted over the years. You especially know about the extensive orange groves, and how Ben Gurion emphasized the importance of seizing them from the Palestinians because the proposed Jewish State was going to need the cash the citrus crop brought in each year.
Anyway, it's good to see you're finally at the point you can admit it was Palestinian land, even if you still think Jews had some kind of right to take it if the Palestinians weren't using it in a Zionist approved fashion.
Goalpost alert!! "Covet" != "Seize". Israel has never taken land except when they were attacked. The Muslims have gotten their asses kicked every time they take on Israel so now they're trying to run to the world stage and get back what they lost.
Goalpost alert because you were about to move them? Thanks for the head's up.
You're talking about Israel when I specifically said Zionists while referring to the time before and during the establishment of the State of Israel.
Zionists openly coveted the developed land in Palestine
and they made plans to seize them, plans which they carried out to the best of their ability at Israel's founding.
Also, what you said about Israel never taking land unless it was attacked is untrue. You know as well as I do that Israel struck first in 1967 and used that war as justification for grabbing Jerusalem and much of the West Bank.
You're not this ignorant.
The 48 partition was based on where people actually lived, not on where the resources were.
Not really. It was based on giving 30% of the population (mostly recently arrived immigrants from Europe) over 50% of the land and screwing over the indigenous population because the European powers preferred working with other Europeans in carving up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
That's not a rebuttal. A good chunk of that land was the Negev where basically nobody lived.
Bedouin lived there.
Muslim Arab Bedouin. Making it part of Israel was a blatant give-away to the European immigrants who wanted to establish a port at the southern tip. It completely disregarded the interests of the indigenous population. Hell, it pretty much ignored their very existence, just like you do.
Had it been based on where people lived, the Jews would have been allocated 2 districts, one in Tel Aviv and the other in parts of Jerusalem. Being thinly scattered elsewhere and less than 1/3 of the population in total (up from about 1/10th of the population a mere 20 years prior), a fair allocation would have kept Palestine whole.
Of course they were thinly scattered in rural areas, that's what rural means! And I think they attached the rural areas to the cities--to do otherwise wouldn't make sense regardless of the population distribution.
You're not this ignorant. They were thinly scattered because the Zionist settlers throughout much of Palestine were living in small, isolated outposts scattered among well populated towns and cities full of indigenous Palestinians. The only area where Jews outnumbered non-Jews was in the vicinity of Tel Aviv, and that was entirely due to the recent arrival of thousands of European immigrants.
And the Jews had as many refugees to cope with as the Palestinians--and those refugees generally hadn't been able to keep their property, unlike the Palestinian ones. Israel simply marched on, the Palestinians sat and cried.
So the Palestinians should be more like the Zionists? Don't just sit and cry, grab a gun and use it? Does that include carrying out a Palestinian version of Plan Dalet or Plan Hiram? Because if so, wow, you've certainly changed your tune.
The Jews rolled up their sleeves and got to work. They only grab a gun when they are attacked.
Not true, as you well know. The Zionist immigrants of the 1920s and 1930s hadn't been attacked by anyone except maybe the British Police Force, but guys like Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were certainly using guns, grenades, and bombs to kill Palestinians.
But now that the Palestinians have been attacked you approve of them getting guns and using them, correct? Because they should react to that existential threat the way the Jews did? You should maybe tell that to Derec. He seems to get pretty upset when Palestinians act like Lehi and Irgun goons.
The Palestinians weren't organized, weren't well funded, and for the most part weren't armed. They were entirely incapable of withstanding the onslaught of Zionists flooding out of Europe with the specific intention of creating their own State in Palestine.
Nobody was well funded or armed.
The Zionists were well enough funded to have large shipments of arms and other supplies coming into ports like Haifa in the 1940s. Palestinians had nothing even close to that.
Evidence?
The Arms Ships
excerpt:
"At the end of 1946, David Ben-Gurion took over the office of Defense in the Jewish Agency, and soon realized that the weapon arsenal in the hands of the Hagana would not suffice to stand against the armies of the neighboring Arab nations which were expected to invade once independence is declared. Even prior to the historic U.N. resolution of the 29th of November 1947, B.G. sent out three prominent leaders of the Hagana abroad: Yehuda Arazi, Ehud Avriel and Meir "Munya" Mardor, to procure and transport arms for the future State. Soon after the historic UN Resolution, The Procurement Enterprise picked up speed and volume, becoming the most crucial element for the survival of the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Eretz Israel/Palestine), in anticipation of an eventual end to the British Mandate and an all-out war with the neighboring Arab countries. The appointment in March 1948 of Shaul (Meirov) Avigur – who had managed Aliya Bet to that point – as head of arms procurement in Europe reflected the importance attributed to this activity....
...In the struggle for Independence, the state-to-be enjoyed the support of an important ally, the Soviet Union. The expression of this support was clearly evident from the surprisingly pro-Zionist speech by Andre Gromyko – the Soviet delegate to the UN – at the UN in mid-May 1947; its enthusiastic support of the 29 November 1947 UN resolution; its acceptance of a the immigration of Jews from the USSR and Eastern Europe to Eretz Israel, via Aliya Bet and in the huge wave of Aliya following the declaration of Statehood (most immigrants in this wave came from Eastern Europe, and their contribution in manpower to the IDF is considered a crucial factor in Israel’s victory of 1948; click here for details about GACHAL – the recruitment from abroad); and last but not least, their ‘Green Light’ of approval to the arms deals with Czechoslovakia, which saved the new State from a disastrous defeat (click here for the details). The USSR support was the result of several factors: a wish to disrupt British interests in the region; hope that the new-born State would be pro-Soviet, thus alienating the US from Israel (indeed, officials in the US government were certain that the arms deals with Czechoslovakia were hinged on agreements between Israel and the USSR); as well as generating income for the recuperation economies of the Eastern European countries.
The main source of the arms was Czechoslovakia, with Yugoslavia playing an essential role in facilitating their transfer to Israel, by allowing vessels and planes to use its port in Shibennik (today in Croatia), as well as two airports in its territory, as transport stations en-route. Other significant sources for illegal arms were Italy, France, Switzerland, Britain and the USA. The French also allowed, up to a certain point, the use of the Ajaccio airport (in Corsica)."
Are you going to read the whole article? It's linked in the Jewish Virtual Library. More importantly, are you going to remember reading it so we don't have to have another stupid, pointless exchange where you pretend you've never heard of such a thing?
Derec makes it sound like all the Palestinians had to do was say "okay, this part here is Palestine and right over there is the border", and the Zionists would have respected that. It's horseshit, and everyone who knows anything about the history of the region knows it.
The Palestinians have never even tried.
Don't be silly.
The Palestinians were as active as Zionists in pressuring the British to recognize their State under the British Mandate rule. That led to the creation of Transjordan when the British left. Later, the King of Jordan recognized the right of the Palestinian people to form their own separate state. Zionists have never accepted it, largely because they claim they have a right to that part of the world that supersedes the rights of the indigenous people, and the US has supported the Zionists because reasons.
The Palestinians weren't a separate people, there was no reason for a separate state. If you go back before the partition you'll find "Palestine" referred to the area.
I agree. Palestine should have been left intact and helped to become an independent State with respect, justice, and fair dealings for all, not a region divided along religious and ethnic lines. But the bigots wouldn't stand for it, and now their bigotry has become entrenched.
The Palestinians haven't yet achieved international recognition of their State, although they're getting pretty close, especially at the UN. But to say the Palestinian people have never even tried to form a state is utterly ridiculous. You're not this ignorant.
You form a state by declaring a state.
Then you get it recognized.
They declared it. Israel didn't recognize it. So now they are busy at the UN getting their official recognition as a State through a different channel.
They're not interested in half, they want it all.
So did the Zionists who rejected the UN Partition Plan and carried out Plan Dalet instead.
Oh, that's right. You never remember that part, either.
A contingency plan in case the Muslims didn't go along with the partition. The Muslims didn't go along. You never remember that every war over there starts with a Muslim attack.
If you think you can support your assertion, please do.
Here is the article on Plan Dalet at the Jewish Virtual Library. Please point out the part about it being a contingency plan rather than a plan to gain as much valuable territory as possible when the War of Independence began.
And here's another interesting article on the plans made by the Jewish Agency beginning in the 1930s:
The Jewish Agency's Partition Plan in the Mandate Era
Palestinian legislative election, 2006
