More Trouble In Israel

[Rhea]

The new coalition government is made up of eight parties, all of whom have agreed to hold off on major decisions surrounding controversial issues, like the future of the occupied West Bank.

This is a good plan for a coalition like this. Allowing the country to stabilize in a post-bibi way. This PM will serve 2 years, then a moderate takes the reins in 2023. Several of the Israelis that I personally know are very happy with this.

 

[ZiprHead]

Netanyahu Is Out: Naftali Bennett Will Be Installed As Israel's New Prime Minister

I do not see this working out well. The coalition will prove too unstable to actually govern.

Netanyahu, 71, was first elected prime minister in the late 1990s and then again in 2009. Over the last 12 years, he has used his time in office to allow the growth of Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank, frustrated Palestinian aspirations for statehood and aligned Israel with right-wing leaders internationally.

What really frustrated "Palestinian aspiration for statehood" was behavior of Palestinians. The 2005 disengagement from Gaza could have been an opportunity for Palestinians to prove that they can successfully govern themselves and live in peace side by side with Israel. Instead, they elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israel. That does not bode well for letting Palestinians take control of Judea and Samaria as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all Palestinians fault.

https://chomsky.info/198807__/

The pattern is common. Israeli journalist Tom Segev reports what happened when an Arab lawyer told him that a random walk through Jerusalem would yield ample evidence of intimidation and humiliation of Arabs. Skeptical, Segev walked with him through Jerusalem, where he was stopped repeatedly by Border Guards to check his identification papers. One ordered him: “Come here, jump.” Laughing, he dropped the papers on the road and ordered the lawyer to pick them up. “These people will do whatever you tell them to do,” the Border Guards explained to Segev: “If I tell him to jump, he will jump. Run, he will run. Take your clothes off, he will take them off. If I tell him to kiss the wall he will kiss it. If I tell him to crawl on the road, won’t he crawl? … Everything. Tell him to curse his mother and he will curse her too.” They are “not human beings.” The Guards then searched the lawyer, slapped him, and ordered him to remove his shoes, warning that they could order him to remove his clothes as well. “My Arab,” Segev continues, “kept silent and sat down on the ground” as the Border Guards laughed, saying again “Really, not humans,” then walked away. “People were passing by and didn’t look at the Arab, as if he were transparent. `Here you have your story’, said my Arab.” Others are not so fortunate, and may be beaten and taken away for “interrogation” and detention without charge. Complaints to the police evoke still further brutality, as amply documented.15

On one occasion, in late March, the army did break into the town on the pretext of rescuing a tourist bus that had been hijacked, killing a 14-year-old boy and “rescuing” the bus and its occupants. But this tale was quickly exposed as a fabrication. The travellers were a group of American academics attending a conference organized by Bir Zeit university (closed by the army, as was the entire school and university system). They were visiting the town, where they were welcomed by the local inhabitants. One of those “rescued” (well after the bus had left the town) was Harvard professor Zachary Lockman, who reported that a helicopter had been observing the village during the visit and that he had overheard an army officer tell his commander by radio that the group “had not been under any threat whatsoever.”21

When the town was finally occupied by the army assault, we were told, soldiers entered the mosque and desecrated it and one climbed the minaret where he called out in Arabic “Your God is gone, we are in charge here,” a further exercise of humiliation. The same has been reported elsewhere, for example, in Beit Ummar, where more than 100 windows of the mosque were broken, holy books and other property destroyed, and tape recordings of Koran readings stolen during a five-hour army rampage with bulldozers that severely damaged virtually every building along the main street, destroyed cars and tractors, uprooted trees and caused general havoc.22 In Salfit, union offices were destroyed and other buildings damaged. The army entered houses identified by number to seek people designated for arrest; it was speculated that helicopter flights in the preceding days may have been aimed at providing detailed maps. In prison, those arrested were subjected to beatings in the normal fashion. As we were about to leave the village, we heard boys shouting outside that the soldiers were coming. People were streaming from the houses, including women and children, to confront the soldiers once again. Morale evidently remained unshaken, three days after the army assault. My Arab guides did not want to be apprehended in the town, so we left in another direction. No attack was reported in the press, and what happened, I do not know.

Beita achieved notoriety when a Jewish teenager, Tirza Porat, was killed on April 6 by an Israeli settler, Romam Aldubi, after a confrontation that took place when 20 hikers from the religious-nationalist settlement of Elon Moreh entered the lands of Beita — “to show who are the masters,” as one hiker later told a TV interviewer. Two villagers, Mousa Saleh Bani Shamseh and Hatem Fayez Ahmad al-Jaber (there are conflicting versions of their names), were also killed and several were severely wounded by Aldubi, one of two armed guards accompanying the hikers. Aldubi is a well-known extremist barred from entering Nablus, the only Jew ever subjected to an army exclusion order; the second guard and organizer of the hike, Menahem Ilan, also had a criminal past. A 16-year-old boy, Issam Abdul Halim Mohammad Said, was killed by soldiers the following day.

The hikers claimed that Tirza Porat had been killed by Arab villagers, setting off virtual hysteria in Israel, including a call by two cabinet ministers to destroy the town and deport its population. Within a day, the army had determined that she was killed by Aldubi, then proceeding to blow up 14 houses while Chief of Staff Dan Shomron reported that “the Arab residents had intended no harm to the Elon Moreh hikers” and had indeed protected them. Many people were arrested (60 remained in prison when we visited), and six were later deported. General Shomron declared that “action had to be immediate. A failure to act could well have led to other action in the area,” that is, more settler violence. The collective punishment and expulsions are “the expected tribute” paid to control the settlers, Nahum Barnea observes, punishment for their violence being out of the question, because they are Jews.24

What took place on April 6 is contested. According to villagers, the lands of Beita were under military closure at the time. They were concerned when they saw settlers entering these lands and approaching a well, which they feared the settlers might be planning to poison or destroy; that has happened elsewhere according to local inhabitants, including Ya’bed, where the well was blown up by Jewish settlers.26 When Mousa Saleh was murdered by Aldubi in the fields, villagers brought the hikers to the village to determine what should be done. Aldubi killed his second victim when he approached with hands raised to ask Aldubi to hand over his weapon and take the hikers on their way. Aldubi killed Tirza Porat after he was hit by stones thrown by Mousa Saleh’s mother and sister. His rifle was then taken from him and destroyed. Settler tales about shooting by Arabs are denied by the army, which issued an official report of dubious accuracy. Israeli friends in Jerusalem told me that they had no doubt, from the first television interviews, that the hikers were lying. Though the hikers were under the control of the inhabitants for several hours after the killings, none were injured, and they were cared for by villagers, as the army emphasized in an effort to calm the hysteria that followed these events.

The official claim was that the villagers were given ample warning of the house demolitions so that they could remove their possessions. That is plainly false. 10 days later, villagers were still rummaging through the ruins, searching for pieces of broken furniture, clothes, and stored food that had been buried in the explosions. According to several independent accounts, the villagers had been gathered in the mosque and given 15 minutes notice of the demolitions. We were told that one man was indeed given time to move his possessions to his father’s home, after which both houses were demolished. These are substantial stone houses; one of those partially destroyed was a two-story building which, we were told, was more than 100 years old. Apart from the 14 houses officially destroyed, 16 others were damaged, many unlivable. I noticed one house with a wall caved in by a concrete block about ten feet long that had sailed some fifteen feet from the nearest demolished structure.

It was raining steadily when we visited Beita. Women were trying to cook outdoors in the rain, others in semi-demolished houses. A house may have a dozen or more inhabitants. The number of people left homeless is considerable, apart from the many arrested and deported. Mousa Saleh’s mother and sister, three months pregnant, are in prison, their homes destroyed. The sister has been charged with assault, and according to Israeli reports, may be charged with complicity in the murder of Tirza Porat.28 As for Aldubi, he is not to be charged, because, as the army spokesman said, “I believe the tragic incident and its result are already a penalty” — for the murderer, that is, not the Araboushim who raise their heads.29

Of the victims of the events in Beita, only the name of Tirza Porat is known, and only the circumstances of her killing merit inquiry and comment. This is only to be expected in the reigning climate both here and in Israel. Who would have heard the name of Intissar al-Atar, a 17-year-old Palestinian girl shot and killed in a schoolyard in Gaza last November 10, or of her killer, Shimon Yifrah of the Jewish settlement of Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip, arrested a month later and released on bail because, the Supreme Court determined, “the offense is not severe enough to order the arrest of the accused, and in this case there is no fear that Yifrah will repeat the offense or escape from his punishment”? Or of Jude Abdallah Awad, a shepherd murdered, his companion severely wounded, when a Jewish settler tried to drive them from a field on May 5, an incident meriting 80 words in the New York Times (and none when the settler was released on bail, charged with manslaughter)? Or Iyad Mohammed Aqel, a 15-year-old boy murdered by Israeli soldiers, his head “beaten to a pulp” according to a witness, after he was dragged from his home in a Gaza refugee camp?30

The reaction here and in Israel to the grossly discriminatory treatment of Arabs and Jews by the courts stands alongside the prevailing double standard on terror and rights. Palestinian artist Fathi Ghaban receives a six-month prison sentence for using the colors of the Palestinian flag in a painting. An Arab worker caught sleeping illegally in Tel Aviv receives the same sentence, with two-months additional imprisonment if he does not pay a heavy fine. Four young Arabs are sentenced to fines and three months at hard labor for having waved a Palestinian flag in a protest demonstration after the Sabra-Shatila massacres. In contrast, a sergeant who ordered two soldiers to bury four Palestinians alive with a bulldozer receives four months, and two soldiers, whose prolonged beating of captured Palestinians horrified Europe after a CBS filming, received three months probation. Another soldier received a month’s suspended sentence for killing an Arab by firing into a village. A settler found guilty of shooting directly into a crowd of demonstrators was sentenced to a rebuke; another received six months of “public service” outside prison for killing a 13-year-old boy after an incident on a road in which he was under no danger according to testimony of army observers. President Herzog reduced the sentences of Jewish terrorists who murdered 3 Palestinians and wounded 33 in a gun and grenade attack at Hebron Islamic College from life in prison to 15 years; further reductions are doubtless to come. Three other members of the terrorist underground were released after 2 years in prison for the attempted murder of two West Bank mayors, one of whom had his legs blown off, while a military court sentenced two Arabs from Kafr Kassem, the scene of one of Israel’s worst massacres in 1956, to 21 years imprisonment for allegedly planting two bombs that exploded with no injuries. The ideologist and second highest leader of the Jewish terrorist underground, Yehuda Etzion, convicted of planning the bombing of the Dome of the Rock, organizing the attack on the mayors and other atrocities, and stealing 600kg of explosives from a military base, was released to a religious school in Afula after serving half of a ten year sentence, and a presidential pardon is under consideration. Palestinian storekeepers are threatened with the same sentence — five years in prison — “if they failed to wash anti-Israeli graffiti off their buildings and remove Palestinian flags,” wire services report.31

I'm sure you'll take the time to enlighten yourself and I also highly doubt things got any better under Bibi.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not see this working out well. The coalition will prove too unstable to actually govern.




What really frustrated "Palestinian aspiration for statehood" was behavior of Palestinians. The 2005 disengagement from Gaza could have been an opportunity for Palestinians to prove that they can successfully govern themselves and live in peace side by side with Israel. Instead, they elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israel. That does not bode well for letting Palestinians take control of Judea and Samaria as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all Palestinians fault.

https://chomsky.info/198807__/

If Chomsky said it and it's not about language it's probably wrong.

 

[Arctish]

I do not see this working out well. The coalition will prove too unstable to actually govern.




What really frustrated "Palestinian aspiration for statehood" was behavior of Palestinians. The 2005 disengagement from Gaza could have been an opportunity for Palestinians to prove that they can successfully govern themselves and live in peace side by side with Israel. Instead, they elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israel. That does not bode well for letting Palestinians take control of Judea and Samaria as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all Palestinians fault.

https://chomsky.info/198807__/

If Chomsky said it and it's not about language it's probably wrong.

What if the Israeli army said it?

 

[ZiprHead]

I do not see this working out well. The coalition will prove too unstable to actually govern.




What really frustrated "Palestinian aspiration for statehood" was behavior of Palestinians. The 2005 disengagement from Gaza could have been an opportunity for Palestinians to prove that they can successfully govern themselves and live in peace side by side with Israel. Instead, they elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israel. That does not bode well for letting Palestinians take control of Judea and Samaria as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all Palestinians fault.

https://chomsky.info/198807__/

If Chomsky said it and it's not about language it's probably wrong.

Are you accusing Chomsky of lying? Each of those accompanying numbers lead to a news sources verifying the veracity of his statements.

 

[Jayjay]

Hamas and Fatah should switch places. Let Hamas rule in West Bank, where Israel is actually being evil, and leave Fatah in charge of Gaza to try build it up. Not that Fatah's track record is that good either in terms of helping their own people, but at least that'd be the end of rockets.

 

[untermensche]

All a lying crazed sycophant of Israeli brutality and theft can do is say that Chomsky is lying.

They can't point out a lie but that doesn't stop these blind immoral scum bags.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I heard a funny name for left wing Palestine supporters "Green Nazis".

I do think that a lot of these leftists are truly motivated by antisemitism. Because their one sided vitriolic hatred of Israel is... special.

 

[untermensche]

What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.

 

[ZiprHead]

I heard a funny name for left wing Palestine supporters "Green Nazis".

I do think that a lot of these leftists are truly motivated by antisemitism. Because their one sided vitriolic hatred of Israel is... special.

That's just friggin stupid.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.

Then they should hate Hamas.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I heard a funny name for left wing Palestine supporters "Green Nazis".

I do think that a lot of these leftists are truly motivated by antisemitism. Because their one sided vitriolic hatred of Israel is... special.

That's just friggin stupid.

I don't think so.

A lot of people don't consider the Israel/Palestinian conflict from the Israeli side. The Palestinians, for whatever reason, seem hellbent on destroying Israel given any opportunity. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to prevent their population from attacking Israel. On the contrary. They're encouraging it. Hammas is well funded from Iran. With the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle-East and to weaken the Saudi-US alliance. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to stop it.

The PLO/Fatah is only a thing because it was once funded by the USSR. After the fall of USSR, Russia took over the support for PLO, for regional political reasons. With the same goal is Iran with Hammas. To destabilize Israel and to weaken the US influence in the Middle-East.

It's a shitty situation for the Palestinian people, because the two organization nominally protecting their rights, Fatah and Hammas, only exist (ie keep being funded) as long as they continue to attack Israel. They are inherently destructive. What do you think will happen if they ever get any real power in Israel/Palestine?

And not to belabour the point, Israel is the only stable and working liberal democracy in the Middle-East. They're an island of calm in a stormy sea. Keeping Israel in charge is currently the only hope for ANY peace and stability in the region.

You don't even need to be pro-Israel to see that. Supporting either of the two parties that squabble about leading the Palestinian people can only perpetuate the conflict. Without any other alternative to leaders for the Palestinians supporting Palestinian cause won't help the Palestinians one iota. So why bother?

Both the Israelis and Palestinians have been used as chess pieces in International politics long enough. Which sucks for them. I think it's time for a little cynicism and refusal to play the game of the superpowers. The Jews and Palestinians aren't really their enemies. It's everybody else fucking with them... the the time.

 

[untermensche]

What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.

Then they should hate Hamas.

Hamas is a normal human reaction.

It is normal to resist oppression.

It is what you hope for.

 

[ZiprHead]

I heard a funny name for left wing Palestine supporters "Green Nazis".

I do think that a lot of these leftists are truly motivated by antisemitism. Because their one sided vitriolic hatred of Israel is... special.

That's just friggin stupid.

I don't think so.

A lot of people don't consider the Israel/Palestinian conflict from the Israeli side. The Palestinians, for whatever reason, seem hellbent on destroying Israel given any opportunity. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to prevent their population from attacking Israel. On the contrary. They're encouraging it. Hammas is well funded from Iran. With the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle-East and to weaken the Saudi-US alliance. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to stop it.

The PLO/Fatah is only a thing because it was once funded by the USSR. After the fall of USSR, Russia took over the support for PLO, for regional political reasons. With the same goal is Iran with Hammas. To destabilize Israel and to weaken the US influence in the Middle-East.

It's a shitty situation for the Palestinian people, because the two organization nominally protecting their rights, Fatah and Hammas, only exist (ie keep being funded) as long as they continue to attack Israel. They are inherently destructive. What do you think will happen if they ever get any real power in Israel/Palestine?

And not to belabour the point, Israel is the only stable and working liberal democracy in the Middle-East. They're an island of calm in a stormy sea. Keeping Israel in charge is currently the only hope for ANY peace and stability in the region.

You don't even need to be pro-Israel to see that. Supporting either of the two parties that squabble about leading the Palestinian people can only perpetuate the conflict. Without any other alternative to leaders for the Palestinians supporting Palestinian cause won't help the Palestinians one iota. So why bother?

Both the Israelis and Palestinians have been used as chess pieces in International politics long enough. Which sucks for them. I think it's time for a little cynicism and refusal to play the game of the superpowers. The Jews and Palestinians aren't really their enemies. It's everybody else fucking with them... the the time.

Did you read Chomsky's article? You call that peace and stability?

And nothing you say above justifies the anti-semitism charge. You think Chomsky is an anti-semite? Why can't we call Israel supporters anti-Arab? It works just as well.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.

Then they should hate Hamas.

Hamas is a normal human reaction.

It is normal to resist oppression.

It is what you hope for.

Except that Hamas's approach will never work. Look at history, the countries that established peace with Israel had control of their militants and were willing to trade land for peace.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think so.

A lot of people don't consider the Israel/Palestinian conflict from the Israeli side. The Palestinians, for whatever reason, seem hellbent on destroying Israel given any opportunity. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to prevent their population from attacking Israel. On the contrary. They're encouraging it. Hammas is well funded from Iran. With the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle-East and to weaken the Saudi-US alliance. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to stop it.

The PLO/Fatah is only a thing because it was once funded by the USSR. After the fall of USSR, Russia took over the support for PLO, for regional political reasons. With the same goal is Iran with Hammas. To destabilize Israel and to weaken the US influence in the Middle-East.

It's a shitty situation for the Palestinian people, because the two organization nominally protecting their rights, Fatah and Hammas, only exist (ie keep being funded) as long as they continue to attack Israel. They are inherently destructive. What do you think will happen if they ever get any real power in Israel/Palestine?

And not to belabour the point, Israel is the only stable and working liberal democracy in the Middle-East. They're an island of calm in a stormy sea. Keeping Israel in charge is currently the only hope for ANY peace and stability in the region.

You don't even need to be pro-Israel to see that. Supporting either of the two parties that squabble about leading the Palestinian people can only perpetuate the conflict. Without any other alternative to leaders for the Palestinians supporting Palestinian cause won't help the Palestinians one iota. So why bother?

Both the Israelis and Palestinians have been used as chess pieces in International politics long enough. Which sucks for them. I think it's time for a little cynicism and refusal to play the game of the superpowers. The Jews and Palestinians aren't really their enemies. It's everybody else fucking with them... the the time.

Did you read Chomsky's article? You call that peace and stability?

And nothing you say above justifies the anti-semitism charge. You think Chomsky is an anti-semite? Why can't we call Israel supporters anti-Arab? It works just as well.

Sometimes we need to put ideology aside and focus on what works, however badly. When there are humanitarian issues and lives at stake we simply have to be pragmatic. Anything else is just pointlessly cruel.

I think Chomsky has his head in the clouds in this case

 

[Jarhyn]

Hamas is a normal human reaction.

It is normal to resist oppression.

It is what you hope for.

Except that Hamas's approach will never work. Look at history, the countries that established peace with Israel had control of their militants and were willing to trade land for peace.

So, extortion then. "Give us land forever for your lives now". Especially seeing as how there can be no stability when there is barely any country left unoccupied, and leashing the militants requires stability.

 

[ZiprHead]

I don't think so.

A lot of people don't consider the Israel/Palestinian conflict from the Israeli side. The Palestinians, for whatever reason, seem hellbent on destroying Israel given any opportunity. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to prevent their population from attacking Israel. On the contrary. They're encouraging it. Hammas is well funded from Iran. With the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle-East and to weaken the Saudi-US alliance. The Palestinian authority isn't doing anything to stop it.

The PLO/Fatah is only a thing because it was once funded by the USSR. After the fall of USSR, Russia took over the support for PLO, for regional political reasons. With the same goal is Iran with Hammas. To destabilize Israel and to weaken the US influence in the Middle-East.

It's a shitty situation for the Palestinian people, because the two organization nominally protecting their rights, Fatah and Hammas, only exist (ie keep being funded) as long as they continue to attack Israel. They are inherently destructive. What do you think will happen if they ever get any real power in Israel/Palestine?

And not to belabour the point, Israel is the only stable and working liberal democracy in the Middle-East. They're an island of calm in a stormy sea. Keeping Israel in charge is currently the only hope for ANY peace and stability in the region.

You don't even need to be pro-Israel to see that. Supporting either of the two parties that squabble about leading the Palestinian people can only perpetuate the conflict. Without any other alternative to leaders for the Palestinians supporting Palestinian cause won't help the Palestinians one iota. So why bother?

Both the Israelis and Palestinians have been used as chess pieces in International politics long enough. Which sucks for them. I think it's time for a little cynicism and refusal to play the game of the superpowers. The Jews and Palestinians aren't really their enemies. It's everybody else fucking with them... the the time.

Did you read Chomsky's article? You call that peace and stability?

And nothing you say above justifies the anti-semitism charge. You think Chomsky is an anti-semite? Why can't we call Israel supporters anti-Arab? It works just as well.

Sometimes we need to put ideology aside and focus on what works, however badly. When there are humanitarian issues and lives at stake we simply have to be pragmatic. Anything else is just pointlessly cruel.

I think Chomsky has his head in the clouds in this case

 

[untermensche]

Hamas is a normal human reaction.

It is normal to resist oppression.

It is what you hope for.

Except that Hamas's approach will never work. Look at history, the countries that established peace with Israel had control of their militants and were willing to trade land for peace.

A nation allowed to have a military and a modern police force and an airport can establish peace within it's borders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.

Then they should hate Hamas.

Hamas is a normal human reaction.

It is normal to resist oppression.

It is what you hope for.

You still haven't explained why Western Sahara isn't an issue.

Makes Gaza look good. It's just that it's being done by other Muslims, no propaganda value and nobody's pouring billions into a resistance movement.