Movement for Black Lives releases its agenda

[ApostateAbe]

If it is a legitimate question, then there is only one obvious answer: yes. A coherent perspective of the justice system is not about holding people responsible. It matters not who is "fully responsible" and who isn't. It is about deterring crime. It is about giving people an incentive to not kill, rape, attack, cheat, vandalize and steal. That is the immediate physical need of the justice system that has nothing to do with useless abstractions.

You need to answer that homing pigeon: the Middle Ages is calling you.

Deterrence works best when the people you wish to deter are fully rational and can understand the consequences of their actions (i.e. "responsible").

I agree with that. If you think adolescents and adults below the age of 23 can't understand that crime may lead to jail, I would love to learn what led up to that bizarre belief.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The real killer is poverty and oppression.

You're missing the black-rights movement.

By absolving them of blame for the situation it keeps the problem from being solved and thus causes the murder of blacks--far more than are shot by the police.

The polarized nature of this debate, like pretty much everything in American politics, is what prevents progress.

YES there is a self defeating culture within some black communities. YES racism is a real thing that still exists today and driving while black is a real thing in the USA where you are more likely to be pulled over simply for being black and male. YES BLM latches onto questionable martyrs and claims special victim status (while interrupting gay pride parades etc). YES a cycle of poverty was introduced with slavery and such cycles are hard to break through generations especially when social expectations are put in place based on a physically identifiable grouping (race).

All of this is true. It doesn't hurt any of us to admit it all.

 

[laughing dog]

You need to answer that homing pigeon: the Middle Ages is calling you.

Deterrence works best when the people you wish to deter are fully rational and can understand the consequences of their actions (i.e. "responsible").

I agree with that. If you think adolescents and adults below the age of 23 can't understand that crime may lead to jail, I would love to learn what led up to that bizarre belief.

I don't happen to agree with their rationale at all, but it is not the same thing as saying, as you claimed, that these people are naturally criminals.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I agree with that. If you think adolescents and adults below the age of 23 can't understand that crime may lead to jail, I would love to learn what led up to that bizarre belief.

I don't happen to agree with their rationale at all, but it is not the same thing as saying, as you claimed, that these people are naturally criminals.

Yes, maybe they don't mean that. They didn't make their reasons clear for why those children without a fully developed brain (22 year olds ) should be exempt from criminal law. One way or the other, the black activists are proposing an absurdity.

 

[Malintent]

Well if you're going to give them those reparations, might as well do the same for Native Americans, who also got completely screwed over but who gives a shit because we completely forgot about them.

and the Jews... and the Japanese.

89% of these demands are part of the US constitution and its amendments. They demand black people get the right to vote... who wrote this, Rip Van Winkle? Sleeping Beauty?

the remaining 10% of items fall into the "separate and unequal bucket" aka, racial discrimination against all non-black Americans.

1% sounds like something worth discussing... like subsidized college (as long as you take out the part where they say, "but only for black people"), community review of local services (but not a 'lynching party" like they seem to imply is desired for litigation).

 

[JonA]

Among tribes, external threats are always taken many times more seriously than internal threats, and white cops are seen as an external threat against blacks. It is a problem that exists everywhere in group politics, i.e. Islamic terrorists are seen as a far more serious threat than swimming pools. I believe the claim of the external threat should be evaluated for its truth value, all the same.

A complete and total failure to confront the number one killer of blacks: other blacks.

The real killer is poverty and oppression.

There is little oppression, and the poverty is caused by heritable low intelligence.

I'm sure you have evidence for this.

And I'm sure that evidence properly rules out/accounts for the effect of poor education caused, in the US at least, by the down-right stupid system of public school funding.

Right?

Yes. The totality of the evidence is conclusive. Would you like to learn more?

I have read some of your posts on this idea before. I know you are very serious about it and that you have actually gathered evidence to support it (I haven't read all the evidence, but I know you find it convincing and though I think the theory itself is questionable - it certainly makes one uncomfortable - I haven't looked at it deeply enough to dismiss it and so find it interesting).

That said, I'd love to see the evidence; however, I want to warn you that I will likely not have time to engage in a deep discussion on the matter and will probably not be able to be a thorough conversation partner. I say this because I respect you as a sincere debater here and do not want to be misleading.

So if you're okay with this being more one-sided, then please present away. If not, I completely understand and will not view your declination as representing a potential weakness in your arguments or anything negative like that.

 

[Trausti]

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Lies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Among tribes, external threats are always taken many times more seriously than internal threats, and white cops are seen as an external threat against blacks. It is a problem that exists everywhere in group politics, i.e. Islamic terrorists are seen as a far more serious threat than swimming pools. I believe the claim of the external threat should be evaluated for its truth value, all the same.

A complete and total failure to confront the number one killer of blacks: other blacks.

The real killer is poverty and oppression.

There is little oppression, and the poverty is caused by heritable low intelligence. Black Americans have an average income the same as expected of whites with an average IQ of 85. This wouldn't be blaming blacks. Blame is useless for circumstances out of anyone's control. Nobody is to blame, including whites.

Little oppression?

There have been centuries of massive oppression. As much oppression as can be placed on a group short of killing them. And this was oppression at the hands of despicable and disturbed whites.

Contrary to the ignorance of some, the effects of all this oppression do not disappear overnight. They do not disappear in a generation. They do not disappear from the oppressed or the oppressor.

And for the young black individual there is the oppression of substandard schools and harassment from the police and the oppression of the drug war and prison.

And the oppression of poverty.

Some of this oppression is the oppression all poor people face in an unjust society where the rich prey on the poor and live as parasites off others.

Once again you show you have no idea of reality.

I've seen real poverty, what we have in America is nothing like that. I've seen people far worse off than what we have here. You'll have to look at the news to find the really bad oppression--it normally happens in areas it's not safe to go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're missing the black-rights movement.

By absolving them of blame for the situation it keeps the problem from being solved and thus causes the murder of blacks--far more than are shot by the police.

Do you ever wonder why there is a black rights movement?

Because there are those who get their power from leading it.

The existence of leaders is far more about them somehow profiting from leading than from actual situations that warrant their existence. Furthermore, over time the self-serving ones displace the honest ones if they ever existed in the first place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lies.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

 

[ksen]

How would you know?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[laughing dog]

Get some ice on that snowflake SJW - he's melting down.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Lies.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

I don't think that BLM in itself is racist and has some idealistic aims. There may be some on the fringes who would discriminate, such as suspending a University student body vice president for saying never mind black lives matter, all lives matter too.

In this we may argue why Asian or Black groups are okay but White groups would be racist. This is depending on the agenda of such groups.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Among tribes, external threats are always taken many times more seriously than internal threats, and white cops are seen as an external threat against blacks. It is a problem that exists everywhere in group politics, i.e. Islamic terrorists are seen as a far more serious threat than swimming pools. I believe the claim of the external threat should be evaluated for its truth value, all the same.

A complete and total failure to confront the number one killer of blacks: other blacks.

The real killer is poverty and oppression.

There is little oppression, and the poverty is caused by heritable low intelligence.

I'm sure you have evidence for this.

And I'm sure that evidence properly rules out/accounts for the effect of poor education caused, in the US at least, by the down-right stupid system of public school funding.

Right?

Yes. The totality of the evidence is conclusive. Would you like to learn more?

I have read some of your posts on this idea before. I know you are very serious about it and that you have actually gathered evidence to support it (I haven't read all the evidence, but I know you find it convincing and though I think the theory itself is questionable - it certainly makes one uncomfortable - I haven't looked at it deeply enough to dismiss it and so find it interesting).

That said, I'd love to see the evidence; however, I want to warn you that I will likely not have time to engage in a deep discussion on the matter and will probably not be able to be a thorough conversation partner. I say this because I respect you as a sincere debater here and do not want to be misleading.

So if you're okay with this being more one-sided, then please present away. If not, I completely understand and will not view your declination as representing a potential weakness in your arguments or anything negative like that.

I have a YouTube video that provides a summary of the case. Links to the video are automatically blocked on Facebook.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Lies.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Some people like you and Trausti want to attack rather than deal with the meat of an issue and that is completely political.

 

[Trausti]

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Some people like you and Trausti want to attack rather than deal with the meat of an issue and that is completely political.

Is the "meat of the issue" that one group seeks special privileges and largess for its group in the purported name of equality? Why would you defend that?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

I don't think that BLM in itself is racist and has some idealistic aims. There may be some on the fringes who would discriminate, such as suspending a University student body vice president for saying never mind black lives matter, all lives matter too.

In this we may argue why Asian or Black groups are okay but White groups would be racist. This is depending on the agenda of such groups.

While I do think it has some idealistic aims that doesn't prevent it from being extremely racist. The real world isn't made up of just snow and coal.

- - - Updated - - -

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Some people like you and Trausti want to attack rather than deal with the meat of an issue and that is completely political.

No, we are pointing out the truth your side doesn't want to hear.

While the stated goals of BLM are good a closer look shows it's major-league racist and also part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Among tribes, external threats are always taken many times more seriously than internal threats, and white cops are seen as an external threat against blacks. It is a problem that exists everywhere in group politics, i.e. Islamic terrorists are seen as a far more serious threat than swimming pools. I believe the claim of the external threat should be evaluated for its truth value, all the same.

A complete and total failure to confront the number one killer of blacks: other blacks.

The real killer is poverty and oppression.

There is little oppression, and the poverty is caused by heritable low intelligence. Black Americans have an average income the same as expected of whites with an average IQ of 85. This wouldn't be blaming blacks. Blame is useless for circumstances out of anyone's control. Nobody is to blame, including whites.

Little oppression?

There have been centuries of massive oppression. As much oppression as can be placed on a group short of killing them. And this was oppression at the hands of despicable and disturbed whites.

Contrary to the ignorance of some, the effects of all this oppression do not disappear overnight. They do not disappear in a generation. They do not disappear from the oppressed or the oppressor.

And for the young black individual there is the oppression of substandard schools and harassment from the police and the oppression of the drug war and prison.

And the oppression of poverty.

Some of this oppression is the oppression all poor people face in an unjust society where the rich prey on the poor and live as parasites off others.

Ok, let's itemize those oppressions:

· Historical oppression
· Substandard schools
· Harassment by police
· Drug war
· Poverty

Each of these hypotheses is a testable prediction. The hypothesis of historical oppression would predict that even oppressed higher IQ races would remain poor after the oppression, but the prediction has not held up for the Jews, Chinese and Irish. The hypothesis of substandard schools would predict that blacks would perform better academically in high quality schools, and this prediction bears fruit at a young age, per the study by Scarr and Weinberg in which black children were adopted into white families and their IQs increased well above the black average at the age of 7. But, this advantage disappeared in the ten-year follow up study, in which the IQs of the black 17 year olds lowered to the value expected by the Wilson effect (increasing heritability of IQ with age). The hypotheses of harassment by police and drug war could be a respectable hypothesis, but it needs more detail, because it can mean many things: what is the cause and effect relationship? If the premise is that blacks commit equal or less crime but they are disproportionately targeted by the justice system, then that premise is easily struck down, but maybe you don't mean that. Poverty: again, blacks have incomes expected of their IQ, so it would be self-oppression at worst, and more optimistically the reverse is true: American blacks live far better lives than if they were to live in a random nation of equal average IQ, such as the Philippines.

 

[untermensche]

This is more factual.